Points in favor of sneak attack:
- Rogue is inside the animal where the vital organs are.
- Monster has no dexterity modifier to internal AC
- Rogue cannot be seen by monster
Points against sneak attack:
- Rogue is so constrained that he can only use limited weapons
- Stomach is dark
- Stomach is churning, full of acid, full of half-digested food
- Rogue cannot be certain of location or orientation
There are some legitimate arguments in support of both approaches. But I would have to come down on the side of no sneak attack. Lack of mobility to the point that only light slashing/piercing weapons all by itself strongly implies that the rogue is only able to slash or stab at the part of the stomach that just happens to be in front of his short sword or dagger. Besides it being dark, the rogue is almost certainly dealing with acid in they eyes if they try to see. And I defy anyone to explain how a rogue could possibly know his orientation within a churning, acid and half-digested full muscular sack, in the dark, after having been squeezed into the stomach through the esophagus. It defies logic to think the rogue could possibly say "OK, the liver would be right there..." Even IF the rogue had some incredible knowledge of that particular monster's internal anatomy.
So no sneak attack in my games.
To me, the logic falls more along the lines of "There's nowhere to strike that ISN'T a vital organ. The stomach is a "vital organ". Everything that is an "organ" is by realistic definition a "vital organ". I present as evidence for my case, the human appendix:
The most common explanation for the appendix's existence in humans is that it's a vestigial structure which has lost its original function. In The Story of Evolution, Joseph McCabe argued:The vermiform appendage—in which some recent medical writers have vainly endeavoured to find a utility—is the shrunken remainder of a large and normal intestine of a remote ancestor. This interpretation would stand even if it were found to have a certain use in the human body. Vestigial organs are sometimes pressed into a secondary use when their original function has been lost.[3]
Treatment
The treatment of appendicitis is an immediate appendectomy. This may be done by opening the abdomen in the standard open appendectomy technique, or through laparoscopy. In laparoscopy, a smaller incision is made through the navel. Both methods can successfully accomplish the removal of the appendix. It is not certain that laparoscopy holds any advantage over open appendectomy. When the appendix has ruptured, patients undergoing a laparoscopic appendectomy may have to be switched to the open appendectomy procedure for the successful management of the rupture. If a ruptured appendix is left untreated, the condition is fatal.
So really, everyone should be doing extra damage against it in these situations, but I accept it as what it is, a pseudo-threatening way to remove one PC from combat for a few rounds.
Rogues actually have a game mechanic for attacking to hit something's vital organs. RAW or not, I'd probably let mine sneak attack it.
First off I don't think it was the intent to allow sneak attack, but there are no rules to support that so I am mostly doing this because I have nothing else to do.
1.Where was it pointed out? If it was the "no benefits" statement then what is your answer to my reply to that.
2.You are attacking the monster and it does have dex to AC unless you are trying to say damage does to the stomach does not apply to the monster.
3.Rules have been mentioned on both sides of the argument, but none are thread ending. There is nothing mentioned about how tight you are held. For the sake of argument though let's assume the leverage example is true. Wouldn't that also lessen the amount of damage done from strength since you could not get all of your strength behind a blow? Little incisions? What if I have an axe? Are you supporting the reduced strength mod idea?edit:I have not seen the no sneak attack while swallowed rule.
1) It's a basic part of the rules. You can sneak attack someone who is grappled by or is grappling someone else, or if you are being grappled but have a flank on your target. It wasn't the no benefits prior post, and I guess I am the first one to bring that up.
2) You are not attacking the monster. You are attacking its stomach. The stomach has a different AC and HP than the monster itself. It has its own special AC equation. Since Dex mod isn't part of that equation, the Dex mod has an effective value of -. In 3.5, damage done to cut your way out of a monster didn't actually count as damaging the monster. While I believe this is no longer the case in Pathfinder, I don't know if that's an oversight or intentional.
3) When swallowed whole, you can only use a light slashing or piercing weapon to get out. You can't 2-hand or power attack with a light weapon. I would consider that a game-mechanics method of saying no, you can't get all your strength behind a blow.
1. That does not invalidate the stealthed/invisible/unseen opponents in any way.
2.I never saw that rule in 3.5 stating the damage was separate. The statement was always that you need to do X amount of damage to get out of the stomach, and that the muscles closed the wound. I am sure the stomach does not have in infinite amount of HP, allowing it to let and endless number of victims escape*. I am also sure that the swallow ability does not stop working after so much damage is done to the stomach.That means the cap on hp has to come from the monster itself, meaning that when you hurt the stomach you hurt the monster.
Grappling is not. Being swallowed whole, however, is specifically restricted to light slashing or piercing weapons. No battleaxes allowed, sadly.
Grappling is not restricted to light weapons. That was a 3.5 rule.
He is however restricted to one-handed weapons. I figure if you can use a battleaxe then you are not all that restricted.
You are correct. I just looked the entry up, but my other points still stand rules wise.
Points in favor of sneak attack:
- Rogue is inside the animal where the vital organs are.
- Monster has no dexterity modifier to internal AC
- Rogue cannot be seen by monsterPoints against sneak attack:
- Rogue is so constrained that he can only use limited weapons
- Stomach is dark
- Stomach is churning, full of acid, full of half-digested food
- Rogue cannot be certain of location or orientationThere are some legitimate arguments in support of both approaches. But I would have to come down on the side of no sneak attack. Lack of mobility to the point that only light slashing/piercing weapons all by itself strongly implies that the rogue is only able to slash or stab at the part of the stomach that just happens to be in front of his short sword or dagger. Besides it being dark, the rogue is almost certainly dealing with acid in they eyes if they try to see. And I defy anyone to explain how a rogue could possibly know his orientation within a churning, acid and half-digested full muscular sack, in the dark, after having been squeezed into the stomach through the esophagus. It defies logic to think the rogue could possibly say "OK, the liver would be right there..." Even IF the rogue had some incredible knowledge of that particular monster's internal anatomy.
So no sneak attack in my games.
We already agreed that a rogue had to have a way to see in the dark to get sneak attack.
Other hypothesis then... shouldn't the rogue be making escape artist checks to go up the esophagus instead of hacking it's way out like the heavy fighter would? Cutting its way out should be seen as the last resort in my opinion.
And why would creatures develop special killing tactics or abilities (Read : Swallow whole) if it was so damn dangerous to themselves? I suppose they have such abilities to be effective, not helping the characters getting closer to their soft spot.
And should extra situationnal damage be granted for hitting the stomach? Well, if it was intended so, the rules would have mentionned it in the entry. I mean, the book gives the option to hack and is rather precise about how it's done; I believe it would have been easy to say the stomach was considered flat-footed or anything in regards to precision damage or coups de grace.
2.I never saw that rule in 3.5 stating the damage was separate. The statement was always that you need to do X amount of damage to get out of the stomach, and that the muscles closed the wound. I am sure the stomach does not have in infinite amount of HP, allowing it to let and endless number of victims escape*. I am also sure that the swallow ability does not stop working after so much damage is done to the stomach.
From the core:
"A swallowed creature can try to cut it's way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (The amount of damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature's total hit points) [...] If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed.<insert dirty joke here>
*Giggles in a Chaotic Pervert manner*
I generally agree with your rules assessment. With the exception of seeing a "vital spot" when swallowed whole. Everything is vital when swallowed whole imo so the need to see it is irrelevant.
I guess we differ on this point. If I swallowed something and it tried to come out of my stomach in the direction of my belly-button pretty much nothing vital there, just a spare tire. Toward my spine, bad, check. Towards my arse, painful, but not really vital. Up and out the chest, yeah, heart in the way, very bad. So, maybe, half good, half bad. So, I don't think this means everything is vital, kinda a coin flip.
We already agreed that a rogue had to have a way to see in the dark to get sneak attack.
... and see through a stomach full of acid and churning digestive debris since stomachs generally vent gas back through the esophagus instead of leaving air to breathe and see through.
Go ahead, open your eyes in a pool full of hydrochloric acid. Let me know how much the flashlight helps you see.
Go ahead, open your eyes in a pool full of hydrochloric acid. Let me know how much the flashlight helps you see.
+1
Last I checked, hiting the surface of what I am kneeling on/ leaning up against/ contained by doesn't require much effort, and in this particualr instance (and several I can think of) doesn't require visual capability to land an effective blow with any form of sharpened weapon. I would give the Rogue the sneak attack because of several reasons:
a- the gut in question certainly can't dodge away ( not with out a serious case of acid reflux)
b- a creatures Natural AC general refers to the toughness of its outer flesh, not innards.
c- striking the side of a barn in the dark is much easier when you move to any wall and wail on it. Finding the barn while blind-folded and outdoors after being spun around a half-dozen times would be extremely difficult.
d- I would actually go so far as to rule the innards to be the object of coup de grace attacks at that time because they are effectively prone and unable to perform any action to defend itself. Especially when one considers that the muscles of the intestinal tract are all involuntary, disregarding the ability some creatures have for intentionally acticating the gag reflex, and therefor unable to do anything against the rogue's attack.
So effectively, in my little corner of this multiverse, any monster swallowing a another still alive and thoroughly armed creature will have to deal with some serious consequences, unless there is a very special set of circumstances involved (like some demons' ability to swallow creatures into an extra-dimensional gullet). Those consequences being to repeatedly recieve and auto-crit-hit form whatever creature is in there, plus any form of additional damage granted for the inability to use its dex bonus to AC, such as a rogue's sneak attack damage.
This does not however mean that the charcater isn't also suffer some serious acid damage and runs the risk of being suffocated if they can't get out into the fresh air fast enough. If the creature is (relatively) normal in the biology of its guts and not so large that the character is simply adrift in a maelstrom of acid, then I think the tactic is justified.
I am now going to have nightmares involving the tarrasque my old dm pitted us against so many years ago. What a horrible way to go that was. <shudders>
Being able to hit someone does not constitute being able to land a sneak attack. Swallow whole gives the AC for being able to damage the insides. Just because I can hit it with a sword doesn't mean I can damage it. Giving rogues sneak attack because they can generically hit would be the same as giving any class that is swallowed whole a bonus sneak attack damage. After all the rogue is loosing his ability to vitally strike, so he's only hitting as good as anybody else.
Coup de grace also requires a helpless condition... I wouldn't constitute the digestive track that is currently damaging said rogue as helpless. Acid and crushing damage tend to imply non-helplessness.
I see where you're coming from, but also remember that most of the creatures that have the swallow whole ability probably have strong digestive tracks as the creature often swallows up other creatures. Even other animals that are eaten that way have claws and teeth they'd be using while trying to escape. Also consider upon escape the creature has strong enough intestines to seal the hole up.
I'm not trying to tell you how to run your world, just providing a small bit of counter point to some of what you brought up.
"A swallowed creature can try to cut it's way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (The amount of damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature's total hit points) [...] If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed.
Thanks, but I still think the the creature itself is also damaged since it goes off of total hit points, not current HP.
We already agreed that a rogue had to have a way to see in the dark to get sneak attack.... and see through a stomach full of acid and churning digestive debris since stomachs generally vent gas back through the esophagus instead of leaving air to breathe and see through.
Go ahead, open your eyes in a pool full of hydrochloric acid. Let me know how much the flashlight helps you see.
Nice try, but that is not a rules based argument.
Nice try, but that is not a rules based argument.
It is in the sense that darkvision alone would not allow someone to attack vital areas. If their eyes are open and they can see in the darkness they're being constantly pushed against the walls of the digestive track or under bodily fluids such as acid.
(If I've missed something I apologize, I haven't read the entire thread since my first post)
Nice try, but that is not a rules based argument.It is in the sense that darkvision alone would not allow someone to attack vital areas. If their eyes are open and they can see in the darkness they're being constantly pushed against the walls of the digestive track or under bodily fluids such as acid.
(If I've missed something I apologize, I haven't read the entire thread since my first post)
There ain't no rules saying the fluid would blur vision. Might it be common sense sure, but if it was to be intended to be used in the rules I am sure there would be a penalty to AC or a miss chance.
Nothing in the RAW says something specific about the stomach having an HP counter of its own. It's still internal damage. I can't imagine the burn of my own stomach acids pouring out in the rest of my body.
Aw, junk. Another house rule that I didn't realize I had been taught. I thought it sounded ridiculous!
There ain't no rules saying the fluid would blur vision. Might it be common sense sure, but if it was to be intended to be used in the rules I am sure there would be a penalty to AC or a miss chance.
The closest we get in the rules is concerning murky water which is 1d8x10 feet for how far you can see, which is admittedly plenty of vision base. Unfortunately there are no specific rules for immersion in stomach acid, which is logically much different from seeing in murky water.
Of course if any of this was intended to be used in the rules it would have been covered. The writers were not intending on people getting swallowed so they can try to benefit from sneak attack. Technically the only rules in place for making attacks in a stomach are for cutting your way out.
So I can see a RAW interpretation of if a rogue has darkvision he could sneak attack, but being able to see is DEFINITELY required to get sneak attack.
... and see through a stomach full of acid and churning digestive debris since stomachs generally vent gas back through the esophagus instead of leaving air to breathe and see through.
Go ahead, open your eyes in a pool full of hydrochloric acid. Let me know how much the flashlight helps you see.
Okay I'm just pointing a few things out, for one, it takes several minutes for a stomach at rest to fill with acid. A fighting monster would take upwards of a few dozen minutes so no real problem here (not to mention rules > common sense in this game, don't make me point out the other flaws we all let slip by to make this game work.)
- Rogue is so constrained that he can only use limited weapons
- Stomach is dark
- Stomach is churning, full of acid, full of half-digested food
- Rogue cannot be certain of location or orientation
- Only if you are the worst rogue ever (this is there specialty)
- Darkvision (already established necessary)- Not true
- Also the worst rogue ever
my 2 copper pieces.