Our group has just started CoT and we've all decided to play Tieflings and roll on the variant chart. My friend is trying to come up with a build that optimizes the "you get a natural attack (claws)" roll.
So I immediately think of the shapeshifter Ranger. Since he already gets claws he can take aspect of the bear to get STR increase. We start looking at attacks and I (think) I realize that this is pretty amazing.
So here's my question (am I correct in my thinking).
Maybe I'm wrong, but with two natural attacks (claw/claw), and with thorn bracers, would you be able to make 4 attacks @ 1st level?
Weapon + offhand + claw + claw?
If I'm correct then it would be (BAB 1)
-3, -7, -4, -4 -> Dual wielding light weapons and -5 for secondary natural attacks.
which in turn @ 6th level with investing in TWF
4, -1, -2, -1, -1 (the latter two being claw attacks @ -5)
to make a claw attack you can't be holding an item in that hand. This makes sense even from an intuitive stand point. If I want to scratch you and I'm holding something (say a sword), I would have to drop the sword so I can bare my claws. A full attack action(needed for more than one attack) is a single action, this precludes you from being able to take a free action (dropping your weapon) before the complete full attack action is done.
Hence my stating that they would use Thorn BRACERS.
"A thorn bracer can be used to make an offhand attack if you aren’t wielding a weapon or shield in that hand. You can attack with these bracers even while holding objects in your hands."
What book are Thorn Bracers from? What do they do for you?
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To add my bit to the fromage, take a bit of barbarian for the rage, and the Fiend Totem, Lesser from the apg for a gore attack. Add in the animal fury barbarian rage power from the core book, and you have claw/claw/bite/gore/bracer/bracer
with a str of 13, he can pick up rending claws for an additional 1d6 if both claws hit. Later, he can pick up the two-weapon version for rend with his bracers.
Hence my stating that they would use Thorn BRACERS.
"A thorn bracer can be used to make an offhand attack if you aren’t wielding a weapon or shield in that hand. You can attack with these bracers even while holding objects in your hands."
The bracers state that you can attack with the bracers if you are not wielding a weapon or shield in that hand so you are still limited to the weapon or the natural attack.
The thorn bracers themselves are also weapons similar to gauntlets that cover the hand.
In short the hand can only be used for one attack.
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Hence my stating that they would use Thorn BRACERS.
"A thorn bracer can be used to make an offhand attack if you aren’t wielding a weapon or shield in that hand. You can attack with these bracers even while holding objects in your hands."
Since I don't recall ever seeing thorn bracers, and don't have any stats to reference... I can't really comment on them.
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You can find the entry in the pathfinder srd under weapons entry, exotic light table
Since linking or apparently quoting a source is so difficult, I tracked it down to the original Pathfinder Campaign Setting. It's worth noting that the PCS was for 3.5 and has been superseded by the Inner Sea World Guide and the Thorn Bracer was not reprinted.
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Meh. I'd allow it. The weapons are already kinda wonky rules-wise, no reason not to allow them with claw attacks. Also, try to get another natural weapon somehow so you can invest in Multi-attack, if the DM will allow it.
Also, instead of worrying about bracers, why not just take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat? You can use your feet as unarmed strikes, so...
Kick/Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw at level 6 if you go two-weapon fighting, plus you can apply an Amulet of Mighty Fists to all of the attacks, including claws, so you don't have to split the difference between enchanting your claws and both bracers. Also, pick up a Monk Robe and the Improved Natural Attack feat when you can for more fun. (Again, the later only if the DM allows it.)
That's the route I'm going with my Kobold Barbarian right now. Unarmed strikes for kicking, Animal Fury and the Beast Totem powers for claws and bites, two-weapon fighting, elemental rage abilities, and of course I get Pounce at level 10 while raging. I think it'll come out to something like... what, 9 attacks at level 11 on a charge, with an extra 1d6 elemental damage while raging on all of them, not including strength bonus damage and bonuses from the inevitable Amulet of Mighty Fists. :D
the thorn bracers do not work the whole limb is involved. ie your arm. I'n general kicking and clawing sticks all your secondary attacks at -5 if you twf as some have suggested they are at -7.
so an 18 str raging kobold is 8 8 3 for the kicks and 1 for all the natural attacks. forget power attack.
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Since linking or apparently quoting a source is so difficult, I tracked it down to the original Pathfinder Campaign Setting. It's worth noting that the PCS was for 3.5 and has been superseded by the Inner Sea World Guide and the Thorn Bracer was not reprinted.
I figured that A: since you complained about having no idea where to find it, it was better just to tell you so you could see it on the site yourself.
B: it was faster for me to provide directions instead of pasting it in brackets -- which it was
C: I didn't have to hunt the item down in the first place, so don't complain if I didn't present it in a specific manner
D: By verifying it on the SRD yourself, instead of following a link, you could be certain it was a pathfinder source.
E: I think the SRD is a sufficient quote as a source for all intents and purposes. Even if it's a source of references.
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Since linking or apparently quoting a source is so difficult, I tracked it down to the original Pathfinder Campaign Setting. It's worth noting that the PCS was for 3.5 and has been superseded by the Inner Sea World Guide and the Thorn Bracer was not reprinted.I figured that A: since you complained about having no idea where to find it, it was better just to tell you so you could see it on the site yourself.
Except what exactly is the Pathfinder srd site?
I know of the Pathfinder PRD site which is here on Paizo and there is no description of the item you described.
I know of the D20PFSRD site which is a fan site which does have it but the listing is from the PCS which is obsolete... is it in the ISWG? I guess I'll drag out my PDF and check that...
So essentially you could have said nothing and been just as helpful.
D: By verifying it on the SRD yourself, instead of following a link, you could be certain it was a pathfinder source.
Umm?? It is not a Pathfinder source. The d20 site is a fan resource.
E: I think the SRD is a sufficient quote as a source for all intents and purposes. Even if it's a source of references.
Seeing as... it's a reference to an obsolete resource it's valid for exactly what?
Our group has just started CoT and we've all decided to play Tieflings and roll on the variant chart. My friend is trying to come up with a build that optimizes the "you get a natural attack (claws)" roll.
So I immediately think of the shapeshifter Ranger. Since he already gets claws he can take aspect of the bear to get STR increase. We start looking at attacks and I (think) I realize that this is pretty amazing.
So here's my question (am I correct in my thinking).
Maybe I'm wrong, but with two natural attacks (claw/claw), and with thorn bracers, would you be able to make 4 attacks @ 1st level?
Weapon + offhand + claw + claw?
If I'm correct then it would be (BAB 1)
-3, -7, -4, -4 -> Dual wielding light weapons and -5 for secondary natural attacks.which in turn @ 6th level with investing in TWF
4, -1, -2, -1, -1 (the latter two being claw attacks @ -5)
I'd go for the much safer, substantially more visceral Razortusk feat (bite attack for Half-Orc), Aspect of the Beast claws, and Fiend Totem, Lesser gore attack. If your GM allows the racial alternatives, there's a half-orc one for the bite that doesn't cost you the feat. I don't know who decided to throw that one in there, but w/e. You have 1 attack at level 1, 3 at levels 2 and 3, 4 at 4 when you're raging. If you have the racial change, it's 3 attacks at level 1, all primary.
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the thorn bracers do not work the whole limb is involved. ie your arm. I'n general kicking and clawing sticks all your secondary attacks at -5 if you twf as some have suggested they are at -7.
so an 18 str raging kobold is 8 8 3 for the kicks and 1 for all the natural attacks. forget power attack.
Yeah... I didn't say it was the best strategy (I'm playing a KOBOLD), but it is fun.
Also, my DM is letting me take Multi-attack, since I have the 3 natural attacks as a prerequisite while raging, so my secondary attacks are at a -4, so we've got...
+10/+10/+5/+8/+8/+8, if I don't have an Amulet of Mighty Fists by level 7. Even then, I plan on getting an Amulet of Mighty Fists (Menacing), because I really need the +4 whilst flanking. Add on the d6 of elemental damage to each, and I could put out some... decent damage. It's not great, but then remember, I'm playing a KOBOLD.
*Edit: Also, remember that the power of the individual attacks isn't as important as the quantity. I'm going to get Elemental Burst on all of them while raging eventually, so I'm more interested in getting as many crits as possible to add to the damage, plus get the extra fistfuls of d6's.
the thorn bracers do not work the whole limb is involved. ie your arm. I'n general kicking and clawing sticks all your secondary attacks at -5 if you twf as some have suggested they are at -7.
so an 18 str raging kobold is 8 8 3 for the kicks and 1 for all the natural attacks. forget power attack.
Yeah... I didn't say it was the best strategy (I'm playing a KOBOLD), but it is fun.
Also, my DM is letting me take Multi-attack, since I have the 3 natural attacks as a prerequisite while raging, so my secondary attacks are at a -4, so we've got...
+10/+10/+5/+8/+8/+8, if I don't have an Amulet of Mighty Fists by level 7. Even then, I plan on getting an Amulet of Mighty Fists (Menacing), because I really need the +4 whilst flanking. Add on the d6 of elemental damage to each, and I could put out some... decent damage. It's not great, but then remember, I'm playing a KOBOLD.
*Edit: Also, remember that the power of the individual attacks isn't as important as the quantity. I'm going to get Elemental Burst on all of them while raging eventually, so I'm more interested in getting as many crits as possible to add to the damage, plus get the extra fistfuls of d6's.
I played a character once who got 16 attacks on a full attack action in 3.5. It was really cool but I got fed up with all the dice rolling. It slowed the game down too much so I retired that character and made one who did just as much damage with fewer attacks with a 2-Handed weapon. :D
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I played a character once who got 16 attacks on a full attack action in 3.5. It was really cool but I got fed up with all the dice rolling. It slowed the game down too much so I retired that character and made one who did just as much damage with fewer attacks with a 2-Handed weapon. :D
Did you know that Changeling Warshapers (3.5 prestige class)theoretically get infinite attacks? Sure, there's a realistic limit, but theoretically they can make as many natural weapons as they want, including tentacles with no definite size.
Also, most characters I make are good at big, single hits. I wanted to make a character that got lots of attacks to see how fun it was, plus I wanted something that really embodied the raging, draconic spirit of the kobold without the obvious Dragon Disciple prestige class.
Menacing only benefits allies