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I got some question regarding some of the fighter archetypes and I probably create a thread regarding some of the Barbarian archetypes.
First I must say I really like the fighter archetypes. I think they and the ranger archetypes are really good and versatile.
So here are the questions.
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Singleton: Can the he use a ring of force shield?
Timely Tip: Is he using his free hand to do this? I guess he is. Does he have to pick Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm to do this or is Timely Tip a special ability that doesn't require Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm?
Interference: Is he using his free hand to do this? I guess he is. Does he have to pick Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm to do this or is Timely Tip a special ability that doesn't require Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm/ Improved Trip.
Reversal: Same questions as Interference.
If the FHF doesn't use his free hand to do all the cool stuff must he use a trip or disarm weapon?
There is a similar confusion with the Barbarian Knockdown rage power. Does the Barbarian need a trip weapon and Improved trip. If yes, why anyone pick this rage power. With trip weapon and Improved trip she can do this anyway.
:
Leaping Attack: "moves at least 5 feet prior to attacking" = 5 foot step?
Leaping Attack: If he can't take a 5 foot (difficult terrain, staggered, etc) he obviously lose the bonus, but when he moves does the bonus stack with rapid attack?
Rapid Attack: does a hasted level 11 mobile fighter still get the bonus attack from haste? If yes is it at BAB 11? Move + BAB 6, + BAB 1, + BAB 11?
Overhand Chop + Backswing: "Adds double his Strength bonus" Is it on top of the normal Strength bonus or instead of. I guess it's instead of, but unlike Greater Power Attack it doesn't specifically say so. ( Power Attack is doubled (+100%) instead of increased by half (+50%)." ).
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Next week I will create a new thread on "why can't Half-orks, , Elves and Half-elves play The Totem Warror Barbarian."
/Kind regards Zark
Singleton: Can the he use a ring of force shield?
I say yes, but there is some contention on this. The ring, as per my reading, does not create a physical shield, but rather emulates a portion of the spell shield.
Timely Tip: Is he using his free hand to do this? I guess he is. Does he have to pick Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm to do this or is Timely Tip a special ability that doesn't require Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm?
He is using his free hand for this, though that seems less explicit than one would hope. He does not need IUS or Improved Disarm because the ability allows him to do it. Having Improved Disarm would negate the AoO and give him a +2 to the maneuver, however.
Interference: Is he using his free hand to do this? I guess he is. Does he have to pick Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm to do this or is Timely Tip a special ability that doesn't require Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm/ Improved Trip.
Same as above. You don't need the feats, but they help.
Reversal: Same questions as Interference.
As above.
If the FHF doesn't use his free hand to do all the cool stuff must he use a trip or disarm weapon?
He uses his free hand, it would seem.
Leaping Attack: "moves at least 5 feet prior to attacking" = 5 foot step?
Correct.
Leaping Attack: If he can't take a 5 foot (difficult terrain, staggered, etc) he obviously lose the bonus, but when he moves does the bonus stack with rapid attack?
If he's staggered, he can't make a move and standard action or a full-round action. Just a move or standard, so they wouldn't work. However, the ability from Rapid Attack does gain the bonus from Leaping Attack.
Rapid Attack: does a hasted level 11 mobile fighter still get the bonus attack from haste? If yes is it at BAB 11? Move + BAB 6, + BAB 1, + BAB 11?
The two do seem to combine, since the wording on Rapid Attack is about "combining a full attack action with a single move". Since haste grants an additional attack on a full attack, at your highest attack bonus. You'd get an attack at BAB +6, BAB +1 and BAB +11 (from haste).
Overhand Chop + Backswing: "Adds double his Strength bonus" Is it on top of the normal Strength bonus or instead of. I guess it's instead of, but unlike Greater Power Attack it doesn't specifically say so. ( Power Attack is doubled (+100%) instead of increased by half (+50%)." ).
RAW is slightly ambiguous but RAI is clear that the double strength bonus is instead of the normal bonus.
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Singleton: Can the he use a ring of force shield?
No; the item creates a wall of force that can be "wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield". As such, the free hand fighter's other hand is not free.
Timely Tip: Is he using his free hand to do this? I guess he is. Does he have to pick Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm to do this or is Timely Tip a special ability that doesn't require Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm?
Though it is likely intended for this maneuver to be carried out with the free hand, it is not required. The ability does not provide any benefit other than eliminating an opponent's shield bonus. Improved Unarmed Strike would not provide any benefit to this ability. Without Improved Disarm, the free hand fighter would provoke an AoO.
Interference: Is he using his free hand to do this? I guess he is. Does he have to pick Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm to do this or is Timely Tip a special ability that doesn't require Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm/ Improved Trip.
Once again, the ability does not state the maneuver has to be carried out with the free hand. Improved Unarmed Strike has no impact on this ability. Without Improved Disarm/Improved Trip, the free hand fighter would provoke an AoO.
Reversal: Same questions as Interference.
Same answers as Interference.
If the FHF doesn't use his free hand to do all the cool stuff must he use a trip or disarm weapon?
If using a weapon to make a disarm attempt, the weapon must possess the disarming ability. If using a weapon to make a trip attempt, the weapon must possess the trip ability.
There is a similar confusion with the Barbarian Knockdown rage power. Does the Barbarian need a trip weapon and Improved trip. If yes, why anyone pick this rage power. With trip weapon and Improved trip she can do this anyway.
A barbarian can use a trip weapon in conjunction with this ability, but does not have to; a trip attempt can just as easily be made with an arm or a leg, even if wielding a two-handed weapon. A barbarian does not need Improved trip to use this rage power, and doesn't even provoke an AoO without it.
:
Leaping Attack: "moves at least 5 feet prior to attacking" = 5 foot step?
Yes.
Leaping Attack: If he can't take a 5 foot (difficult terrain, staggered, etc) he obviously loose the bonus, but does the bonus stack with rapid attack?
Yes, so long as the mobile fighter moves at least 5 feet before making the attack(s), and can actually both move and is capable of makeing a full attack; staggered characters can only take a single standard or move action in a turn, and cannot full attack at all.
Rapid Attack: does a hasted level 11 mobile fighter still get the bonus attack from haste? If yes is it at BAB 11? Move + BAB 6, + BAB 1, + BAB 11?
Yes, yes, and yes.
Overhand Chop + Backswing: "Adds double his Strength bonus" Is it on top of the normal Strength bonus or instead of. I guess it's instead of, but unlike Greater Power Attack it doesn't specifically say so. ( Power Attack is doubled (+100%) instead of increased by half (+50%)." ).
Instead of; there's no mention of this damage being a new bonus, or additional.
Two-handed weapons have one-and-a-half of your Strength bonus to damage (a character with 18 Strength deals 2d6+6 base damage with a Greatsword). Overhand Chop improves it to 2x from 1.5x, which isn't as drastic a change.
If using a weapon to make a disarm attempt, the weapon must possess the disarming ability.
A disarm weapon grants a +2 bonus to the disarm attempt. Any weapon can be used in a disarm attempt, however.
Disarm: When you use a disarm weapon, you get a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Checks to disarm an enemy.
By RaW, FA fighters cannot use Ring of Force shield. Ironically, however, they can use bucklers, by RaW.
A disarm weapon grants a +2 bonus to the disarm attempt. Any weapon can be used in a disarm attempt, however.
You're right; I keep forgetting disarming weapons function different than trip weapon in this instance.
By RaW, FA fighters cannot use Ring of Force shield. Ironically, however, they can use bucklers, by RaW.
Though they would not benefit from its shield bonus on any turn that they utilized an ability requiring a free hand.
Thanks for all the answers. I would be really happy if Jason Nelson could chime in and tell us how the rules where intended.
Ring of force shield? I say no, but it's no big issue.
The Barbarian Knockdown rage power: I'm not so sure. Yes he can use a leg but why wouldn't he provoke an AoO with it without improved trip?
And unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack?
The FHF (free hand fighter: It would be real lame if the FHF would need improved trip or improved disarm. My reading is he uses the hand, but he could use his weapon.
By RAW FHF can use a buckler, but by RAI I'm not so sure.
Rapid Attack: My bet is he gest the haste attack at BAB 11, but perhaps it is at BAB 6.
Why would disarming weapons function different than trip weapons? The rules use the same text.
Overhand Chop + Backswing: I guess it's instead of.
Yes, Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't really matter, well disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.
The improved trip/disarm feats are still needed thou, or are they?
The Barbarian Knockdown rage power: I'm not so sure. Yes he can use a leg but why wouldn't he provoke an AoO with it without improved trip?
Nope; without Improved Trip any trip attempt normally provokes an AoO, whether it's done barehanded or with a trip weapon. That Knockdown doesn't provoke that AoO is one of the power's primary benefits.
And unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack?
Again, nope. In fact, the trip combat maneuver is designed to be executed with an arm or a leg. Using a trip weapon provides extra benefits, but has never been necessary.
The FHF (free hand fighter: It would be real lame if the FHF would need improved trip or improved disarm. My reading is he uses the hand, but he could use his weapon.
A free hand fighter can use a weapon for such attempts, but without those feats he would still provoke an AoO as normal.
By RAW FHF can use a buckler, but by RAI I'm not so sure.
However, by the RAW, if the free hand fighter chooses to benefit from the buckler's shield bonus, he is not considered to have a free hand. That's the whole concept of the buckler; you can choose to benefit from its shield bonus or maintain a free hand, but not both in the same turn.
Rapid Attack: My bet is he gest the haste attack at BAB 11, but perhaps it is at BAB 6.
The bonus attack from haste is always made at a character's highest BAB; the bonus in your example would be +11.
Why would disarming weapons function different than trip weapons? The rules use the same text.
The rules do not use the same text. The description of the trip special feature includes one relevant line: "You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks." Unless a weapon has this feature, it cannot be used in this manner. However, any weapon can be used to make a disarm attempt.
... well disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.
No, it does not.
The improved trip/disarm feats are still needed thou, or are they?
They are not, but provoke an AoO when attempting such a maneuver without them.
Thanks Heaven's Agent for your help. I still hope Jason Nelson will have the time to give his view on some of the questions. I guess some of my questions are sloppy so I try to clarify them.
Nope; without Improved Trip any trip attempt normally provokes an AoO, whether it's done barehanded or with a trip weapon. That Knockdown doesn't provoke that AoO is one of the power's primary benefits.
Yes I know without Improved Trip any trip attempt normally provokes an AoO, but I can't find any text in the APG indicating the Knockdown doesn't provoke an AoO. Just as there is no text in the APG indicating the FHF:s abilities doesn't provoke an AoO.
Timely Tip and Interference are both extraordinary abilities (Ex) just as Knockdown, and extraordinary abilities doesn't always follow the normal rules, hence this thread.If one ability doesn't follow the normal rules the others might not as well.
Again, nope. In fact, the trip combat maneuver is designed to be executed with an arm or a leg. Using a trip weapon provides extra benefits, but has never been necessary.
. My bad. -4, that's disarm .
A free hand fighter can use a weapon for such attempts, but without those feats he would still provoke an AoO as normal.
Again, I'm not so sure. Timely Tip and Interference are both extraordinary abilities (Ex) just as Knockdown.
And extraordinary abilities doesn't always follow the normal rules ;-)by the RAW, if the free hand fighter chooses to benefit from the buckler's shield bonus, he is not considered to have a free hand. That's the whole concept of the buckler; you can choose to benefit from its shield bonus or maintain a free hand, but not both in the same turn.
I agree: Using his hand = lose the bonus. But a buckler is strapped to the arm, so his hand is free. The text in the APG reads: "His fighting school benefits only apply when he is using a one-handed weapon and carrying nothing in his other hand." By RAW his fighting school benefits apply if he is wearing a buckler, because his hand is carrying nothing, but I wonder if by RAI his fighting school benefits apply.
The bonus attack from haste is always made at a character's highest BAB; the bonus in your example would be +11.
Yes that is also my reading, but I'm not sure.
The rules do not use the same text. The description of the trip special feature includes one relevant line: "You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks." Unless a weapon has this feature, it cannot be used in this manner. However, any weapon can be used to make a disarm attempt.
Yes you are right. The text is different, but there have been many debates of the forum stating :
weapon must possess the disarming ability in order to disarming (unless you do it unarmed).weapon must possess the trip ability in order to trip (unless you do it unarmed).
Others come up with a line of reasoning that goes something like this: Why give the weapon a disarm ability if you can use all weapons to disarm.
There are threads where people point out "You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks" does not equal " You must use a trip weapon to make trip attacks with a weapon". So theoretically you can use any weapon to trip. Trip weapons only give you a bonus on the check.
... well disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.No, it does not....
Yes, it does:
Page 199, Core rule book: "Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack."... The improved trip/disarm feats are still needed thou, or are they?
They are not, but provoke an AoO when attempting such a maneuver without them.
Sloppy writing from me. I know you don't need the feats to trip or disarm. I meant the feats are still needed if you want to avoid AoO, but I'm not sure. Extraordinary abilities are meant to be Extraordinary.
Again. Thanks for your patience and help.
Yes I know without Improved Trip any trip attempt normally provokes an AoO, but I can't find any text in the APG indicating the Knockdown doesn't provoke an AoO.
It's in the description of the knockdown ability itself:
"Knockdown (Ex): Once per rage, the barbarian can make a trip attack against one target in place of a melee attack. If successful, the target takes damage equal to the barbarian's Strength modifier and is knocked prone. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity."
Just as there is no text in the APG indicating the FHF:s abilities doesn't provoke an AoO.
There isn't any; the free hand fighter provokes AoO for his combat maneuvers normally.
Again, I'm not so sure. Timely Tip and Interference are both extraordinary abilities (Ex) ...
The abilities don't provoke an AoO. The associated combat maneuver does.
I agree: Using his hand = lose the bonus. But a buckler is strapped to the arm, so his hand is free. The text in the APG reads: "His fighting school benefits only apply when he is using a one-handed weapon and carrying nothing in his other hand." By RAW his fighting school benefits apply if he is wearing a buckler, because his hand is carrying nothing, but I wonder if by RAI his fighting school benefits apply.
Doesn't matter; if the buckler's bonus is being used, the hand is considered occupied. If this were not the case, a character would be able to both benefit from the shield bonus and have a free hand to cast a spell at the same time.
Yes you are right. The text is different, but there have been many debates of the forum stating ...
There have been a lot of threads, but all of them have been clarified many times over:
Yes, it does:
Page 199, Core rule book: "Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack."
Good catch; missed that line.
Oh god you're fast :-)
It's in the description of the knockdown ability itself:
"Knockdown (Ex): Once per rage, the barbarian can make a trip attack against one target in place of a melee attack. If successful, the target takes damage equal to the barbarian's Strength modifier and is knocked prone. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity."
Embarrassed, embarrassed, embarrassed, embarrassed.
Embarrassed, embarrassed, embarrassed, embarrassed.Embarrassed, embarrassed, embarrassed, embarrassed.
Again, I'm not so sure. Timely Tip and Interference are both extraordinary abilities (Ex) ...The abilities don't provoke an AoO. The associated combat maneuver does.
Come on. You know what I mean. Isn't it lame the fighter has to:
It's lame. An extraordinary abilities with so many prerequisites, ifs and buts, shouldn't be lame.
Doesn't matter; if the buckler's bonus is being used, the hand is considered occupied. If this were not the case, a character would be able to both benefit from the shield bonus and have a free hand to cast a spell at the same time.
My reading to.
Yes you are right. The text is different, but there have been many debates of the forum stating ...
There have been a lot of threads, but all of them have been clarified many times over:
Well the threads I have read have been heated.
If you have a link to the thread on "Any weapon can be used to make a disarm attempt." I would be very happy.
Good catch; missed that line.
Thanks. Your help is great and your answers are excellent :-)
Come on. You know what I mean. Isn't it lame the fighter has to:
spend 3 ability points to get 13 int
Spend 2 feats
lose weapon training 2.
Give up a full attack
to get a "chance" to deprive his target loses its shield bonus to AC against the free hand fighter’s next attack. (If they have any shield that is.). It's lame. An extraordinary abilities with so many prerequisites, ifs and buts, shouldn't be lame.
It's lame, but not without precedent. Spending the feats are nothing for a fighter, and besides, if you're going the route of a free hand fighter, you're going to be specializing your character for this type of fighting anyway.
It's not necessarily an optimal style. It isn't supposed to be. It's a specialized and optional form of combat. If you want to pursue it, you have to make sacrifices elsewhere. Just as if you wanted to specialize in ranged combat, your melee abilities would suffer.
Well the threads I have read have been heated.
If you have a link to the thread on "Any weapon can be used to make a disarm attempt." I would be very happy.
I'll have to do some searching. It's been a while since I was really looking at the issue, for one of my own characters. Of course, now I begin to doubt myself on this; the memory fades over time, and all that.
A weapon must possess the trip feature to be used as part of a trip attempt. Any weapon can be used to make a disarm attempt.
You can make trip attacks with any weapon:
FAQ
I found the relevant posts regarding trip weapons, from Jacobs. They were more recent than I thought, too:
My take:When you want to trip a foe, you don't normally use a weapon. Similarly, you don't normally use a weapon to bull rush, grapple, or overrun a foe. You just lash out with a leg sweep or whatever and try to trip the foe. Doing so is an attack, but that doesn't mean you need a weapon to make the attempt.
Now... SOME weapons (not all) allow you to use the weapon to trip a foe, thus giving you a slight advantage since if you mess up the trip attempt, you can just drop the weapon to "counter" the trip that comes back at you.
My question to this is if you have a reach weapon that is not a trip weapon, can you trip at reach. There is nothing in the rules to prevent it, but your interpretation would.In order to trip with reach, you either need to have reach on your own as a virtue of your race, or you need to be wielding a reach weapon with the trip ability.
Being able to trip with any long-hafted weapon like a spear or pole arm is a neat idea, but that's better handled as a specific feat rather than allowing any long-hafted weapon to gain the trip ability.
Honestly, I really want a response from Jason Buhlman on this issue...Kind of like how if as a kid you ask Mom if you can do something and she says no so instead you go ask Dad if you can do the same thing hoping to get the answer you want?
Honestly, I don't think the problem is a problem. It seems pretty clear to me, but since this thread's 7 pages long it's obviously NOT clear.
But basically... when you trip a foe you don't use a weapon. If you want to use a weapon, you have to use one that lists "trip" under its Special category.
Also... if folks are going to stubbornly not accept rulings from anyone but Jason on rules matters, they should cultivate more patience. Jason's only one guy, and by requiring only one person to be your "trusted and for real official source," you're artificially limiting the amount of feedback you'll get.Sorry if my response wasn't the one you were looking or hoping for. Fortunately, you can run your game however you want if the rules don't work for you. But as far as I can tell by reading the rules... they're pretty dang clear.
You can't trip with a weapon unless that weapon has the word "trip" listed under its special.
You can make trip attacks with any weapon:
FAQ
Nope, all that says is that you can make a trip attack without a trip weapon. It goes on to say that if you aren't using such a weapon, the trip attempt is made, in effect, unarmed.
Nope, all that says is that you can make a trip attack without a trip weapon. It goes on to say that if you aren't using such a weapon, the trip attempt is made, in effect, unarmed.You can make trip attacks with any weapon:
FAQ
You wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from a +5 longsword to your trip combat maneuver roll because a longsword is not a trip weapon. In effect, there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt.
Therefore it is not an unarmed trip attack. It just resolves like one.
Then what's the point of claiming the trip attempt is made with a weapon?
The FAQ never states you can make a trip attempt with a weapon that does not possess the trip feature. It just states why non-trip weapons do not function in such situations. See the above linked posts from JJ to further back this up.
Then what's the point of claiming the trip attempt is made with a weapon?
The FAQ never states you can make a trip attempt with a weapon that does not possess the trip feature. It just states why non-trip weapons do not function in such situations. See the above linked posts from JJ to further back this up.
memory is right. Give it up ;-)
memory is right. Give it up ;-)
If memory was, I would admit it.
The FAQ entry isn't stating you can use non-trip weapons to make trip attacks. It's answering the question of can trip attacks be made without trip weapons at all. You can; as the entry states, you can trip with unarmed attacks as well as trip weapons.
The only official response regarding the use of non-trip weapons in making trip attacks is from JJ, in the responses I quoted. It is vitally important to recognize this difference; a PC cannot normally make an unarmed attack at range, and as such cannot make a trip attack at range unless using a trip weapon with reach. Otherwise, you could make a trip attack at range with any reach weapon. This is something that JJ specifically stated cannot happen, and his statement is not contradicted by the FAQ response.
memory is right. Give it up ;-)If memory was, I would admit it.
The FAQ entry isn't stating you can use non-trip weapons to make trip attacks. It's answering the question of can trip attacks be made without trip weapons at all. You can; as the entry states, you can trip with unarmed attacks as well as trip weapons.
The only official response regarding the use of non-trip weapons in making trip attacks is from JJ, in the responses I quoted. It is vitally important to recognize this difference; a PC cannot normally make an unarmed attack at range, and as such cannot make a trip attack at range unless using a trip weapon with reach. Otherwise, you could make a trip attack at range with any reach weapon. This is something that JJ specifically stated cannot happen, and his statement is not contradicted by the FAQ response.
If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No.
Note that when making a trip combat maneuver, you don't need to use a weapon at all
You can use unarmed or a weapon. It makes no difference to the resolution of the attack, but it can still be a choice.
If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No.
That's correct. You can use a trip weapon, or an unarmed attack.
Note that when making a trip combat maneuver, you don't need to use a weapon at all
That's the only thing the FAQ response answers.
You can use unarmed or a weapon. It makes no difference to the resolution of the attack, but it can still be a choice.
It does make a difference. As I mentioned, if you could make a trip attack with any melee weapon, you could do so at range simply by using a reach weapon. That's not something that's permitted under the rules.
"You wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from a +5 longsword to your trip combat maneuver roll because a longsword is not a trip weapon. In effect, there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt."
my bold
I fully understand. But that does not say that you can use a non-trip weapon as part of a trip attack. It's not what the question was asking, and it's not what the FAQ response answered. If anything, the response serves to indicate why there's no point in allowing non-trip weapons to be utilized in trip attempts.
I fully understand. But that does not say that you can use a non-trip weapon as part of a trip attack. It's not what the question was asking, and it's not what the FAQ response answered. If anything, the response serves to indicate why there's no point in allowing non-trip weapons to be utilized in trip attempts.
A) You can trip unarmed
B) there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longswordC) Why is there no there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword?
D) because you don't add enhancement bonus from a non-trip weapon.