So, I'm reading through my latest AP, and I'm reading through the article The Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye, the secret society that shows up a few times in the Adventure Path.
At first blush, the Egypt-themed gentleman's club looked like something out of Lovecraft or reminiscent of the Illuminati. But when I read their history, I get a very strong Mormon vibe. Or at least, what a critically negative person would say about Mormonism's early American history.
Aldus Canter = John Smith
Tabris = the angel Moroni
Elect Nine = Quorum of the Twelve
And many other parallels, including the running out of Illinois, ascending to become a perfect celestial, endless retranslating the original holy book, etc.
Again, not as Mormons present themselves, but as Mormons are criticized.
The front-and-center use of the word "gospel" is strange. The word "gospel" is a uniquely Christian word (being Greek for "good news"), and the idea of "lost gospels" is very much a Mormon idea, as they preach of the "restored gospel."
Am I the only one reading it this way? Am I way off base here?
I honestly think you might be reaching a bit, IMHO.
I was getting a more of 19th century Egyptology-meets-Freemasonry vibe myself, especially with the emphasis on bizarre insider-only rituals.
It's Joeseph Smith, John Smith was an explorer that met Pocahontas.
Well, Erik, you are on to something, but I'm pretty sure my use of multiple secret-society source inspirations doesn't quite make me a "critically negative person." Don't forget that at a lot of secret societies and religions, Mormons included, freely ripped off aspects of other societies, to the point that there is a lot of overlap between groups, and many of the Mormon aspects you list above (like a council of elders, or a prophetic angel) certainly aren't exclusive to Mormonism.
I'm very well-versed in the history of Freemasonry, the Jesuits, the Golden Dawn, Spiritualists, Mormonism, etc, etc, etc, totally fascinated with groups like Scientology, and I drew on my knowledge of all of them to conjure up an amalgamation of rituals, histories, and beliefs that became the Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye. I assure you there is nothing sinister or critical behind it -no more than how I equated Victorian Freemason's obsession with Egyptiana into the Esoteric Order's same obsession with all things Osirion.
Of course, fictitious or erroneous beliefs about secret societies are GREAT source material for fantasy roleplaying game materials, too (like the false accusation of Templars being Satanists), and I can assure you that the article doesn't aspire to do anything more than give you guys a super-cool, mysterious, slightly-sinister society to interact with that is fresh and new, but also strangely familiar.
I also encourage you to do further research on the early days of Mormonism -it is an incredibly fascinating history, as you already know, and you'll find that most of the early founders of Mormonism were not only Masons themselves, but were real busy incorporating Masonic rituals and copying ceremonial dress into their Church that persist to this day. Heck, there are so many similarities that good'ol wikipedia has an article devoted to it here. Some folks even maintain that Joseph Smith's final words and actions ("Oh Lord, my God" with his hands raised high) were not an exaltation of faith, but rather a Masonic distress call as he tried to save his own life (Raised hands and the call "Oh Lord, my God, is there no help for the widow's son?" being the universal Masonic distress call). Truly fascinating stuff!
Soooo...yeah...nothing sinister, and I promise I'm not a closet Mormon-hater subtly concealing anti-Mormon rhetoric in my Pathfinder articles. Fact and fiction alike are fair game for fantasy roleplaying game inspirations! =-)
As a mason, i have noticed some aspects of pathfinder's society seems a little inspired by our popular culture perceived ways
Absolutely!
Dodging territory already covered by the Pathfinder Society's thematic shanghai of Masonic ritual and organization is the primary reason I sought out other secret societies and religious groups as different sources for inspiration.
Well, as usual wiki has some fundamental inaccuracies in their article. Mostly opinion and not fact.
There is no such thing as "Mormonism" (makes it sound like an affliction) as 'Mormon' is the name of a Prophet in the Book of Mormon (so called this due to his translation of the language of the text, and his compilation of it, which was written in a language similar to ancient egyptian. That Language was long/lengthy and took up too many pages, what with symbols instead of words and such had become rather voluminous.)
The Book contains many parallel scriptures to the more popular Bible. But nothing in there is secret (anyone can get a copy and read it), and all of it is mere translation as Joeseph Smith found the book, he didn't write it.
Joeseph Smith was a Boy when he became a Prophet of God and eventually formed the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, not mormons.
The LDS church is no more a "secret society" than Catholics or Jews or Muslims (who all believe in the exact same God). Anyone can join any one of those religions on their own free will, there are no barriers or requirements for membership, above and beyond baptism, which isn't any different than any other religion (Im not sure about Jews or Muslims, I assume they have something similar).
The Article tries to make a connection between Masonic Traditions and this "new" religion. That would be like trying to make connections between Christ's fathers profession as a carpenter and the nails used to crucify him.
Most "secret" people that others label "mormons" are actually polygamists (more than one wife) and are "secret" because it's practice is illegal and they can get caught and go to jail. SO in that sense they are just as secret as any criminal trying to hide a crime.
As far as I know, I can't apply to become a member of the illuminati or free masons, I have to be invited. In that sense, the US ARMY would be closer to a "secret society" as it is littered with masons and in order to become a high ranking NCO it seems you need ties with the masons.
Freely accepting new members on a daily basis hardly makes a church secret, and finding a book doesn't make one the author any more than finding Tut's tomb makes one the architect.
Pendagast, I'm not sure if your response is directed at my reply or to the article I reference, but just to cover my bases:
I'm not interested in getting into a debate about the finer aspects of Mormon belief or history. The religion was one among several groups (that included both established religions and secret societies) that served as historical inspirations for a fantasy secret society. I apologize for not having made a more clear separation between the two in my discussion above, as closely tied as the early Mormon church may have been to Freemasonry. I'm merely acknowledging some of my sources, and anything -whether it be pop culture misconceptions, conspiracies theories, or the truth -is fair game when a writer is seeking real-world comparisons. And let's not forget that the elements listed above by the OP (such as angelic visitation and divinely-inspired writings) aren't exclusive to the Mormon faith, or even religion, for that matter.
And I do hope you'll pardon my correction, but "Mormonism" is, in fact, a perfectly valid term for the beliefs of Mormons, just as "Catholicism" is a valid term for the Catholic faith.
Pendagast, I'm not sure if your response is directed at my reply or to the article I reference, but just to cover my bases:
I'm not interested in getting into a debate about the finer aspects of Mormon belief or history. The religion was one among several groups (that included both established religions and secret societies) that served as historical inspirations for a fantasy secret society. I apologize for not having made a more clear separation between the two in my discussion above, as closely tied as the early Mormon church may have been to Freemasonry. I'm merely acknowledging some of my sources, and anything -whether it be pop culture misconceptions, conspiracies theories, or the truth -is fair game when a writer is seeking real-world comparisons. And let's not forget that the elements listed above by the OP (such as angelic visitation and divinely-inspired writings) aren't exclusive to the Mormon faith, or even religion, for that matter.
And I do hope you'll pardon my correction, but "Mormonism" is, in fact, a perfectly valid term for the beliefs of Mormons, just as "Catholicism" is a valid term for the Catholic faith.
No I was saying the wiki article was off base, as it usually is.
Calling LDS people "Mormons" is actually incorrect. It is not accurate.Catholics belong to the Catholic Religion. LDS do not belong to the Mormon religion. It is not a worship of mormon, or a name the group has given to themselves. It is merely a common misconception.
Jews are infact Jews and identify themselves as such, Americans are from the US , but actually even mexicans and canadians are technically "Americans" as they live in "the Americas"
Mormons is actually a misused term when talking about the LDS church. The problem with using a common term like "Mormon" is that people who read, or use the Book of Mormon as scripture, get tumbled all into one. Which isn't nearly the truth. Most people assume 'mormons' are weird, anti-social people who live in compounds and have tons of wives and abuse children. Unless you live in Utah, then you blame them for watered down alchohol. :P
In truth, Joeseph Smith, although a member of the Nauvoo Lodge (which incidentally became the largest lodge in Illinois at the time) was not an active member, as he was way too busy with building up the church and attending to the people's needs.
Out of curiosity what portion of the LDS religion, specifically could be considered inspiration for your fantasy order?
Angelic visitation and divinely inspired writings is literally a part of nearly every real world religion (that I can think of) so thats clearly not "Mormon".
Secret Rites/Ceremonies? Not "Mormon"
I know about as much of the masonic traditions as has already been included in this thread, but I'm not sure any of that is even specific to them.
So is there anything specifically "LDS" about your group, or was it more just a religion you looked up that had several commonalities to other groups that ended up in your publication?
This is exactly the sort of messageboard back-and-forth I'm trying to avoid, Pendergast. I'd rather not get trapped in a religious argument, even over semantics. We all know where those threads end up. =-)
That being said (which roughly translates as "I guess I'll debate anyway"), I'm not sure I can at all follow or agree with your logic regarding the etymology of the term "Mormon" and its relationship to the Church of LDS. We've obviously have very different experiences and studies, but in any case I'm pretty sure that distinction isn't important in the context of this conversation.
I grew up near an LDS church in Southeast Texas, and have many Mormon friends, all of whom openly refer to themselves, and their faith, as Mormon. I know for a fact that they'd all take exception to your statement that the "common assumption" of the word Mormon characterizes them as "weird, anti-social people who live in compounds and have tons of wives and abuse children." I mean, c'mon Pendergast -the official website of the LDS Church (whose links jump straight to "MORMON.org") says in a link right on its front page "What do Mormons believe?," and a quick perusal of the website is rife with self-reference to the people of the church using the term. I'm at a loss to proceed further.
To answer your question, it is specifically the early history of Mormonism, as it relates to the Second Great Awakening, New York's "Burned-Over District," Spiritualism, and the early Mormons' relationship to Freemasonry that interest me and served as inspiration for the article, and I assure you that is it hardly something I just casually "looked up."
Now...I'm going to back away very slowly, alright? =-) Again, we're just talking about a very small percentage of the source inspirations for an article on a fantasy sect, and I'll maintain that I didn't include anything offensive in either the article or my posts, so I think a quick rebuttal over semantics is as deep as I'm willing to go on this topic. Friends, right? =-)
I've learned recently that sir Pendagast has a healthy taste for debate (or just arguement, semantics or no). It is refreshing from other (non-Paizonian) messageboards filled with those who may sheepishly bow their head in agreement to everything they read. It is something I can respect, at least when it is in the right place.
For my own part, sir Hodge, I'd like to say that I love the way that the Order is presented in the latest installment. It's just the quasi-illuminati sort of organization that I've been looking for and would love to use. If the setting is going to establish an egyptian-like tone in Osirion, it only makes sense to build upon it with real-world counterparts of secret societies.
One question: I am not as well-versed in Golarion lore as I probably should be -are there any other major, comparable secret societies in Golarion? Well, any aside from the obvious alliterative malicious mumblers who feature prominently in this AP. I know of secretive ones like Bellflower and ones who are far-reaching and pervasive like the Aspis but few that are both.
You know, I read the title of this and was expecting to have to diffuse something here. But nope! In short, what Brandon said, we're very much of the same mind on the context and inspirations for all this.
So those Palatines, do they know how magnets work?
When I first read over the Esoteric Order, my first thought was a vibe of 19th century theosophy with a dash of pop-culture perception of masonic traditions of the same era, plus some pulp adventure influenced by british explorers of the period. Of course, some of that 19th century backdrop (the former two) can arguably be seen to have influenced the evolution or origin of LDS traditions (and my inner skeptic will go no more in that direction to avoiding offending anyone).
It's a really rich area of thought (the theosophy et al) that can really be seen in bits and pieces all over the place. Tiny bits of religious or quasi-religious ephemera show up in my own stuff, the more obscure the better (names of seriously obscure Eastern Orthodox angels or saints, yazidi theology, and bits of ideology that pops out of the confluence of Judiasm, Nestorian and Syrian Christianity, and Nabatean/Arabian paganism in pre-Islamic Arabia, etc etc). Obscure cultural baggage of all flavors can be awesome for using warped bits of them in D&D. :)
Stop it, Todd! You're giving me the warm fuzzies! =-P
As a Christmas gift one year, I photoshopped my fiance and I into a picture with Blavatsky and Henry Olcott. Somehow I was lucky enough to find a gal who appreciated that!
Stop it, Todd! You're giving me the warm fuzzies! =-P
As a Christmas gift one year, I photoshopped my fiance and I into a picture with Blavatsky and Henry Olcott. Somehow I was lucky enough to find a gal who appreciated that!
Hodge, I'm LDS.
The website is Mormon.org explicitly because people assume the term, google it look it up, whatever, so the church wants to direct those inquires in the LDS direction.
Otherwise if you googled "mormon" and they hadn't done that, you'd only find obscure articles about westward moving pilgrims and polygamy.
Those who refer to themselves as "Mormon" are a) using a commonly use term by others and b) are incorrectly referring to themselves. In the last LDS conference, the prophet said exactly that (ie stop calling yourselves mormons), which is not the first time this has been said.
However, in common terms it is easier to say Mormon, than Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Or telling some one "I am an Latter Day Saint" it's quite a mouthful, people get lazy, and say "I'm mormon".
It's not correct, and church leadership has said so.
You have gone out of your way to educate yourself on the subject, however the common misconception ,as even seen on TV past several years, is that 'mormon' refers to polygamists that hide about and run secret lives with multiple wives. (it was even discussed openly on "The View" where they tore apart Mitt Romney, an LDS presidential candidate, by saying "I wonder how many wives he has hidden")
So most people are not very educated on the topic and the word mormon strikes up images of polygamy.
where is this esoteric order anyway? Is it in the latest Carrion Crown? I wonder why everyone gets theirs before mine?? I was always get mine late.
Levity always being so well accepted on the net...I have something to share...
A few years ago, me and a friend are working on characters for a new campaign, he making an aasathi cleric of Mormo (race and god from WW's d20 setting). About half way through he stopped and looked up absolutely distraught...and asks me "if I worship Mormo, does that mean I have to be a mormon?"
Pendagast, as an AP subscriber don't you have access to the PDF under the downloads section? The order has its own supporting article in part 2.
I think that article is what prompted this thread.
Pendagast, as an AP subscriber don't you have access to the PDF under the downloads section? The order has its own supporting article in part 2.
I think I get the PDF when I get the email that says "your order is shipping" Which was like yesterday or something. Just seems like it takes me longer to get mine than other people on here..
LOL@ I did too much LDS in college.
So those Palatines, do they know how magnets work?It is very appropriate for a clown to have posted the quoted message.
Please. I'm not a clown. It's jester. Very different. No big red nose is one thing. No balloon animals, either (though I sometimes indulge in them for combat purposes.) And instead of hitting others of my kind with ladders and custard pies, I make scathing remarks.
Oh, and I visit people's nightmares to make them worthy of the name. But that's more a hobby.
So those Palatines, do they know how magnets work?It is very appropriate for a clown to have posted the quoted message.Please. I'm not a clown. It's jester. Very different. No big red nose is one thing. No balloon animals, either (though I sometimes indulge in them for combat purposes.) And instead of hitting others of my kind with ladders and custard pies, I make scathing remarks.
Oh, and I visit people's nightmares to make them worthy of the name. But that's more a hobby.
Clowns are scary. Jesters are known entities, and far less scary as a result.
This discussion reminds me of the time in graduate school when my roommate, who was very proudly a member of his fraternity from his old college, vaguely mentioned the secret rites which he was not allowed to reveal to outsiders. I asked if they involved a ritual plate, some sort of torch or candle, a chalice and a blade. He said he couldn't say, but it was two of those four. I then said, "Oh, you probably just stripped it down to the chalice and the blade then" at which point he got disturbed and a little upset, and I had to explain that secret societies including fraternities were operating in a very old tradition of western hermetic magic and there were an awful lot of things they had in common.
Or my LDS friend who watched the "Stonecutters" episode of The Simpsons and was worried that the "magic underwear" joke was making fun of his church. I assured him that it was making fun of the Masons, who had magic underwear long before the LDS church ever came about.
And an awful lot of old magical tradition has drifted into folk tradition (or was elaborated from folk tradition) to the point where you start describing a ceremony where there's ritual chanting, candles being lit, a knife being raised, and ceremonial secrecy, and you can't tell whether I'm describing a child's birthday party or the rituals of a secret society. Look! Someone has a blindfold! Is this a Masonic hoodwink or are they getting ready to play Pin-the-Tail-on-the-Donkey? Is there much difference? How exactly do party hats differ from ceremonial headdresses?
Magic underwear? Look! It's mithral!
Brandon: Got my print copy yesterday and reread the EOPE section. Fantastic stuff.
For what it's worth, I immediately thought of the Masons, the Egyptian crazes, and Spiritualism, but never of Mormons.
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Just for the record, I'm Mormon and didn't connect this secret society with Mormonism at all. Here I had a chance to be offended and missed it. Darn!
For the record, I think what Pendagast is referring to is a statement issued by the Church regarding how they would prefer the LDS church were represented in the press. You can read it here if you're interested.
The fourth and sixth items on the list are pertinent here:
"•When referring to Church members, the term "Latter-day Saints" is preferred, though "Mormons" is acceptable.
•The term "Mormonism" is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
So there you go. No harm, no foul (or should it be fowl? I'm never sure).
I was born, raised, and currently live in Utah and though I'm not "Mormon" I have many friends, and family members who are. They bandy about the word "Mormon" to describe themselves all the time. In fact, in my part of the state I think about half the folks (or possibly more) would be confused if asked if the word Mormon was offensive.
So there you go. No harm, no foul (or should it be fowl? I'm never sure).
Foul is what happens when you set fire to the ref's shirt so he doesn't notice you've smuggled a slightly modified cannon onto the court and then the distraction continues until you've defenestrated six of the opposing team with it, via the skylight.
Also if you dumped the contents of six portajohns left outside a Mexican restaurant with bad plumbing on several successive hot summer days on the ref, that would be very foul. It's a versatile word.
Fowl are the sorts of things detonated by timey-wimey detectors.
Jesters are known entities
Or are we...?
You won't consider a jester a "known entity" after one of his cutting remarks refers to something that nobody but yourself could possibly know about.
"I know what you did last summer" is nothing compared to that! }>
And an awful lot of old magical tradition has drifted into folk tradition (or was elaborated from folk tradition) to the point where you start describing a ceremony where there's ritual chanting, candles being lit, a knife being raised, and ceremonial secrecy, and you can't tell whether I'm describing a child's birthday party or the rituals of a secret society.
The thing is, they're so secretive that they never realise that they're all doing the same stuff. It's always embarrassing when you're almost done with the rites, and then one of the cloaked fellows tells the supplicant raise the candle, only to have someone interrupt "you mean torch", and then it turns out that several people were in the wrong building, in the wrong secret society, and that most of their rites are the same. Lots of Significant owls hooting in the night.
So there you go. No harm, no foul (or should it be fowl? I'm never sure).
No fowl? I know you guys aren't allowed to drink alcohol, and I just read that you shouldn't drink caffeine, but I wasn't aware that you are not allowed to eat poultry! Maybe you misunderstood something about cocktails? ;-P
Is that enough for you to feel offended? I was very upset that you missed that chance, for it's everyone's right to be offended from time to time. I want to help you. If the chicken thing wasn't enough, I could probably crack wise about that polygyny thing.
Wait, here goes: What is the punishment for polygamy? Two mothers-in-law! ;-P
Fowl are the sorts of things detonated by timey-wimey detectors.
You blow up chickens?
You blow up chickens?
Fowl are the sorts of things detonated by timey-wimey detectors.
I'm intrigued by the organization, haven't seen any great historical analogues of masonic-like societies in D&D. I expanded on the College of Mysteries in Absalom in that way.
The real question, of course, is this: does the Steak Conspiracy exist on Golarion?
The real question, of course, is this: does the Steak Conspiracy exist on Golarion?
Steak conspiracy? Someone is conspiring to keep steak from me? Where is my +3 longsword! Woman! where. is. my. super-suit??
I don't have anything to add. Pendagast said it all. I haven't even read the article, since I'm much more interested in creating my own stuff than reading someone else's today.
To have a masonic society in Golarion is very interesting. To draw parallels between it and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is almost coincidental. Almost. I'm not going to "Apologize" for the Church since Pendagast has already done so.
I just find it funny that Brandon had done such a thing. We can't create out of a vacuum, we are influenced by ideas we get everywhere. If Brandon was influenced by his Mormon friends and his studies on the subject, so be it. Even if it seems funny. :) Pendagast, a lot of people have the wrong ideas about the Church.
And let's not forget that the elements listed above by the OP (such as angelic visitation and divinely-inspired writings) aren't exclusive to the Mormon faith, or even religion, for that matter.
The Writers of the Qabbalah and the Zohar claim they were visited by Angelic beings: Enoch, Elijah, and even God and were told to write the contents and the Qabbalah down. So no, we don't have exclusive claim on Angelic visitation or divinely inspired writings.
Although I did point out that it still took 1,000 years to turn things around from the Dark Ages to the Renaissance, and subsequently beyond. After all, without Tyndale translating and printing the Bible into English, there would be no Book of Mormon. :)
Mormon love fest! :D
Hyrum "My name sure gives it away" Savage
I don't have anything to add. Pendagast said it all.
?
Steak conspiracy? Someone is conspiring to keep steak from me? Where is my +3 longsword! Woman! where. is. my. super-suit??
!
You guys really like steak.
I don't have anything to add. Pendagast said it all.?
Steak conspiracy? Someone is conspiring to keep steak from me? Where is my +3 longsword! Woman! where. is. my. super-suit??!
You guys really like steak.
but i get it so infrequently, hence the conspiracy part I guess? But who is at the heart of me not getting my steak?
We must intone the names of the great Arch Angels MichaEl, RaphaEl, GabriEl, AriEl and Kal El... Siegel and Shuster... :) Guess what religion they followed :)
Superman, Archangel, Solar Deitie... Last Son (Sun) of Krypton...
Well he is Earths Guardian Angel...
I'll admit to having only the "pop-culture" knowledge of the Mormon (or LDS, don't wish to offend) faith, but I saw none of that in the EOotPE. It seemed to me to be a straight mash-up of The Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn and the Masons.
I'll admit to having only the "pop-culture" knowledge of the Mormon (or LDS, don't wish to offend) faith, but I saw none of that in the EOotPE. It seemed to me to be a straight mash-up of The Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn and the Masons.
i didnt seem to see anything LDS either