I'm working on a d20 Modern/Future/Past conversion for a Firefly campaign I want to run.
I know three of us are going to sit down and play with it over the next few days...
Most of my thoughts are actually posted over in the dedicated thread. I *think* I have the character-building system they used pretty well in hand. So now I gotta whip up a list of targ- erm, encounters and run a couple of characters thru them. Most of it looks pretty straightforward.
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Most of my thoughts are actually posted over in the dedicated thread. I *think* I have the character-building system they used pretty well in hand. So now I gotta whip up a list of targ- erm, encounters and run a couple of characters thru them. Most of it looks pretty straightforward.
I've been character building. The one issue that I'm not jiving with is the Fast/Medium/Slow save progression. Yes, advanced classes of D20 Modern had this, but not the base classes. Rather, why not treat class as good and poor saves like Pathfinder has done?
Most of my thoughts are actually posted over in the dedicated thread. I *think* I have the character-building system they used pretty well in hand. So now I gotta whip up a list of targ- erm, encounters and run a couple of characters thru them. Most of it looks pretty straightforward.I've been character building. The one issue that I'm not jiving with is the Fast/Medium/Slow save progression. Yes, advanced classes of D20 Modern had this, but not the base classes. Rather, why not treat class as good and poor saves like Pathfinder has done?
I would go their thread and ask that. That is where they are fielding questions.
edit:The important thing is whether or not the math holds up. I don't know if they did the math or not.
Did what math?
Did what math?
Pathfinder assumes you have certain items so that you can defend yourself against the bad guys and attack them properly. If the modern game is using Pathfinder monsters the builds should be able to get the same bonuses to defensive and offensive stats, even though there are no magic items.
Oh, right. I was focusing too closely on the actual numbers. Is there a codification of these assumptions/expectations somewhere?
Oh, right. I was focusing too closely on the actual numbers. Is there a codification of these assumptions/expectations somewhere?
They are in several post.
Stat enhancer +6Books that boost stats +5
Cloak of Resistance +5
Ring of Protection +5
Amulet of Natural Armor +5
Shield light or heavy(+1 or 2) enhancement bonus +5 more
Armor with a +5 bonus. The armor of course starts off with a certain bonus
I would assume a +4 for light armor, +5 or 6 for medium armor, +9 for heavy armor.
Weapon with a +5 bonus.
People may not take all of these, and in the modern game all the options that would get all these bonuses won't be taking since RP'ing and not just having super build is important to many people, all those bonuses and any I may have forgotten and/or did not feel like naming should be available.
I know some of those are replaced by magic items that give you options as opposed to stat bonuses so I am assuming the same decisions will be made in the modern game.
Are you planning on having d20 Modern Pathfinder characters being at the same power level at the same level as Pathfinder Core Rulebook and APG characters?
Because I don't think that's going to happen. Basically, Conan is ALWAYS going to kick James Bond's ass. (Which I think is a fair comparison, considering both Ahnold and Sean Connery were Mr. Universes....right?)
I think a better goal is to make a d20 Modern system that uses the best parts of Pathfinder (CMB vs CMD, skills, feats, etc.) and still be a fun and easy to use system.
Are you planning on having d20 Modern Pathfinder characters being at the same power level at the same level as Pathfinder Core Rulebook and APG characters?
Because I don't think that's going to happen. Basically, Conan is ALWAYS going to kick James Bond's ass. (Which I think is a fair comparison, considering both Ahnold and Sean Connery were Mr. Universes....right?)
I think a better goal is to make a d20 Modern system that uses the best parts of Pathfinder (CMB vs CMD, skills, feats, etc.) and still be a fun and easy to use system.
I think it depends on where the bad guys are coming from. If I run a modern only system all those bonuses I put in the last post won't be needed, but some people will want to combine the two. Maybe a Rift brings strange monsters(bestiary monsters) to the modern world, and in that case those bonuses might be needed.
Technology should help. A tank or helicopter gunship should be able to take on most big monsters, and flamethrowers and machine guns can be effective against most other threats. Some things might be tough to deal with, like incorporeality, or tactical use of greater teleport at will, but that's kind of the point of mixing genres, isn't it?
Can you imagine a demon teleporting at will in a Prime Material Kingdom, bouncing back and forth between hamlets and thorps and counties, killing peasants willy-nilly until the locals muster an adequate defense, the teleporting to a new hunting ground? Just nasty.
Which is the difficulty in many of the Modern rewrites going around. Most want to "improve" d20 Modern to a power level on par with Pathfinder and put personal twists on it.
Keep in mind the base SRD for Modern is old by system standards and exists in a 3.25 oddity. It's almost a decade old now!
The version I'm working on is making the base classes 20 levels long (instead of 10), and I'm adding more talent trees.
I'm thinking of replacing Beginning Occupations with traits (3 for being human), and altering some feats to be traits, like Personal Firearm Proficiency, Archaic Weapon Proficiency, Light Armor Proficiency, etc.
As much as I like the idea of the d20 Wealth check, it is very weird and hard to conceptionalize in play. "You open the ancient treasure chest, and it's filled with gold doubloons. You are +2 wealthier." "You sell the stolen car to a local chop shop. Add +2 to your wealth."
Cool. Now my +5 wealth is +7. Now I can afford that speed loader.
Cool. Now my +25 wealth is +27. Now I can afford that speed boat.
Huh????
I think Clarke's Third Law - or a corollary - comes into play, here. ("A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.") If the core game assumes inclusion of magic in the overcoming of obstacles, then the core game assumes the inclusion of /sufficiently advanced technology/ in the overcoming of obstacles.
To me, the bonus-providing items listed above do one of the following:
- makes you better at your skills
- makes you better at hitting and damaging
- makes you better at avoiding being hit and taking damage
Is that a fair summation?
I think a fantasy core and a modern core may end up being creatures that function along similar lines, but that function on different scales when it comes to personal enhancements. I think sci-fi and fantasy would probably run a lot more closely to each other in most instances. This leaves a modern game/setting having more room (and need) for variant mechanics.
@SmiloDan - on the Wealth thing, I think it is a playability thing so that a modern game doesn't focus on making the looting of fallen enemies the sole revenue stream of the heroes. One of my players thinks she will like using the wealth-checks rather than having to "balance her character's checkbook" as it were. I understand what you saying - I'm just telling myself "metagame mechanic to keep things flowing" and moving on. ymmv, naturally.
I'm also interested in seeing what you come up with for your modern system.
Another thing d20 Modern characters have going for them are Action Points. A few times per level, they can add +1d6 to any d20 roll.
Then I thought, what if there were additional things Modern Heros could do with their Action Points? And then I remembered how I'm a bit bugged by the "empty" levels PCs have at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18. At the odd levels, every PC gets a feat. At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level, PCs get an ability score increase. But there are no non-class related abilities gained at 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18. Might these levels be used to enhance Action Point usage?
Some Action Powers (this might need a better name!!!!) might include:
Action Boost: Increase the action point die from 1d6 to 1d8.
Action Surge: Add all your action point dice together when you spend 1 action point.
Active Critical: When you roll a critical threat, you can spend an action point to automatically confirm the critical hit.
Active Damage: Spend 1 action point and add the result to a single damage roll.
Active Defense: Increase your Defense by Action Point result for 1 round.
Active Durability: Spend 1 action point and gain DR/- equal to the result of action point die result for 1 round.
Active Feat: Spend 1 action point and gain the use of a feat you qualify for but do not possess for 1 round.
Active Focus: Spend 1 action point and add the results to the Save DC of one of your special abilities for 1 round.
Active Genius: If you roll a natural 20 on a skill check, you may spend an action point and roll an additional 1d20 and add it to the skill check result.
Active Pool: You increase the number of dice you roll when spending an action point by 1. You must be 10th level to select this action power.
Active Sprint: Spend 1 action point and increase your speed by 5 times the result of the action point die for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your character level.
Active Talent: Spend 1 action point and gain the use of a class talent you do not possess for 1 round. Spend 2 action points and gain the use of a cross-class talent talent you do not possess for 1 round.
Extra Active: Gain 2 additional action points per level.
Greater Action Boost: You increase the size of your action point die from 1d10 to 1d12. You must be 18th level and have the Action Boost and Improved Action Boost action powers before selecting this action power.
Heroic Action: Spend 1 action point and gain an extra move action. Spend 2 action points and gain an extra standard action. Spend 3 action points and gain an extra full round action.
Improved Action Boost: You increase the size of your action point die from 1d8 to 1d10. You must be 10th level and have the Action Boost action power before selecting this action power.
Influence Action: Spend 1 action point as an immediate action and add the results to an ally's roll or subtract it from an opponent's roll.
Maximum Action: Spend 1 additional action point and automatically get the maximum result of your action point roll.
Reactive Attack: Spend 1 action point and re-roll an attack roll or initiative roll.
Reactive Save: Spend 1 action point and re-roll a saving throw.
Reactive Skill: Spend 1 action point and re-roll a skill check or ability check.
Some of the difficulty in ‘updating’ Modern depends on which audience they are directing the improvement towards. In some cases, like Kevin Webb GRC Team, their final product is completely incompatible with ANY d20 Modern products; which for a number of us is a ‘no sale’ attribute. On the other hand some people don’t really care about the current Modern and any new Modern may be fine to them.
I suppose it ultimately ends up being the question of: “How close to d20 Modern is it going to be?”
I for example like Modern as is, but it always can use improvement (doesn’t everything), so the final product should (in my case at least) be compatible with other Modern stuff…even if that material must also be upgraded (and why not).
There some obvious stuff that could be used in Modern with only little effort, and others that will require a good deal more thought.
The Skill system in Pathfinder is great, an obvious improvement, the trick comes from ‘which’ skills should be merged and which should be left alone. This becomes a bit more problematic when you realize that in a Modern setting people are not super heroes by default; not every person that can balance on high-wires, or jump over a suburban, or cartwheel backwards over landmines can do all three (except for a few serious bad assess, who should NOT be considered Player Characters ONLY).
Other things that would to looked at are things on the Modern end of the equation. For instance the Class Bonus to your Defense scores is sort of a problem, it applies way too often (even in situations in which it shouldn’t); a question for that would be whether to change it (my own idea is making it a Dodge bonus) or leave alone.
So much to look at, even I’m working on my own version, to which the focus is improving with Pathfinder material that makes sense and reinforcing the idea that don’t ‘need’ to go to Advanced Classes after Level 3 (simply put, the base idea of Pathfinder, making the base classes more appealing). There’s always things to work on.
Stuff
Have you considered making an Action Point Recovery system? Something to both encourage the use of action points (some people tend to horde then since their so hard to get) and benefit everyone in general.
You know like rolling natural 20’s or 1’s; surviving being dragged into the negatives; or performing something particularly badass.
That might help a bit…though your mileage may vary.
Other things that would to looked at are things on the Modern end of the equation. For instance the Class Bonus to your Defense scores is sort of a problem, it applies way too often (even in situations in which it shouldn’t); a question for that would be whether to change it (my own idea is making it a Dodge bonus) or leave alone.So much to look at, even I’m working on my own version, to which the focus is improving with Pathfinder material that makes sense and reinforcing the idea that don’t ‘need’ to go to Advanced Classes after Level 3 (simply put, the base idea of Pathfinder, making the base classes more appealing). There’s always things to work on.
SmiloDan wrote:
StuffHave you considered making an Action Point Recovery system? Something to both encourage the use of action points (some people tend to horde then since their so hard to get) and benefit everyone in general.
You know like rolling natural 20’s or 1’s; surviving being dragged into the negatives; or performing something particularly badass.
That might help a bit…though your mileage may vary.
There are optional Hero Point rules in the APG, and they have ways to Recover Action Points. One way to encourage their use is to take them away if they're not used! I think the Eberron rules for Action Points reset how many you had with each level advancement, so you began each level with 5 + 1/2 your character in Action Points, so you couldn't hoard them; it was use them or lose them.
I also agree with the class bonus to defense (AC) being a dodge bonus. And maybe give some Base Classes (Strong or, more likely, Tough) a talent tree that gives a natural armor bonus to AC.
I think the d20 Modern Pathfinder should follow the rules from the Ultimate Combat's Gunslinger class's firearms, if only because it is easier to have 1 ruleset for firearms. I just wish they used d20 Modern design where firearms do two dice worth of damage, so they could do those interesting feats that add or subtract a die of damage and let you do neat tricks.
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I think it depends on where the bad guys are coming from. If I run a modern only system all those bonuses I put in the last post won't be needed, but some people will want to combine the two. Maybe a Rift brings strange monsters(bestiary monsters) to the modern world, and in that case those bonuses might be needed.
Personally, I come from the school of two compatible campaign settings that allow for rifts, combining and the like.
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Another thing d20 Modern characters have going for them are Action Points. A few times per level, they can add +1d6 to any d20 roll.
Then I thought, what if there were additional things Modern Heros could do with their Action Points? And then I remembered how I'm a bit bugged by the "empty" levels PCs have at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18. At the odd levels, every PC gets a feat. At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level, PCs get an ability score increase. But there are no non-class related abilities gained at 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18. Might these levels be used to enhance Action Point usage?
Actually, without going through your list of possibilities, actions points can be used for more than just adding +1d6. In addition, at the cost of an action point, you can:
1. activate a special ability (that would normally be exhausted, e.g., rage,
2. gain an extra attack,
3. automatically stabilize, or
4. emulate a feat you don't have or exercised an improved feat version of one you already have.
At least, that was in D20 Modern and 3.5. GRC has taken a different path. I'm not quite sold on their version yet.
There are optional Hero Point rules in the APG, and they have ways to Recover Action Points. One way to encourage their use is to take them away if they're not used! I think the Eberron rules for Action Points reset how many you had with each level advancement, so you began each level with 5 + 1/2 your character in Action Points, so you couldn't hoard them; it was use them or lose them.
Hm I’ll take note of that and think if it may be a better alternative perhaps with some alterations to fit.
I also agree with the class bonus to defense (AC) being a dodge bonus. And maybe give some Base Classes (Strong or, more likely, Tough) a talent tree that gives a natural armor bonus to AC.
The Tough Hero already gets something like that, Damage Reduction, remember that natural armor refers to stuff that humans don’t have but animals and other creatures do (since most don’t wear armor it balances), in order for a human to get natural armor nonmagically they…well what defines ‘human’ varies but a class is wrong place for that (as a racial trait it would be different).
I think the d20 Modern Pathfinder should follow the rules from the Ultimate Combat's Gunslinger class's firearms, if only because it is easier to have 1 ruleset for firearms. I just wish they used d20 Modern design where firearms do two dice worth of damage, so they could do those interesting feats that add or subtract a...
*Cringes* Hells-Bells No! The firearms in Ultimate Combat are simply too broken as is, in a modern setting it would be astronomically worse, sorry but no. In real life guns aren’t sci-fi lasers that go through everything, it’s the one the one bad thing to come out of all this. Unless you reworked all (and there’s a lot) things that provide armor or natural armor into pure damage reduction (and what would one do with those that have DR by default? They have to get something now.) that idea is just not viable.
The old rules for firearms in Pathfinder Chronicles were much, much better! You didn’t have to bribe or haggles with your DM to let you have anything more than a musket (and I like rifles, so their decision to make them ‘minor artifacts’ is worthy of a timely rant; from playable to playless). -_-
Don’t fall into the trap of trying to make a Modern that works completely with Pathfinder, you WILL fail, they are two different games (sort of like comparing BesM and D&D, seem close but are world apart) in two ‘very’ different settings. Rules that are specially written for a high-fantasy set in a ‘dark ages’ kind of setting wont hold for one that has no magic (and that pretty much sums up U.C.’s firearm rules, Adamant Entertainment did a much better job of firearms…sad.)
Like I said the difficulty is determining what makes sense and works and what doesn’t. Firearms in d20 Modern are fine: they do, at least, as much damage as a falchion, and at best twice the damage of a great sword (or in the case of some Anti-material rifles they are equivalent to 4 long swords) and at a range between 30 and 120 feet per range increment. If any change be done is simply increasing the critical multiplier up a notch will do (though character death and TPK will be more common at lower levels).
Ah sorry, sore point…
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the UC rules for firearms, but a lot of people do the "Rifts" thing, and a gunslinger's gun and a modern soldier's gun should both work the same way if they are both guns. It really is a pity that UC isn't using the d20 Modern rules for firearms, but having contradictory rules in the same game (or in an expansion of the same game) seems unnecessarily confusing and inelegant.
Oh, well....
I don't care for the Pathfinder rules either, and I don't see the confusion. When playing Modern use the normal attack rules. When you play Pathfinder use the special rules. IIRC the special rules are only for the gunslinger, not all the guns. If they are for all the guns I might have to houserule them to work differently. I will figure out the gunpowder issue later.
Well, I plan on using d20 Modern/Future for a d20 Firefly campaign, so I don't have to worry about magic and monsters. Maybe extremely low level psionics. But probably not even that. The most vicious monster in my campaign might be a guard dog or stampede of cattle. Or some of those black market beagles....I hear they have smallish droppings....
I'm working on a d20 Modern/Future/Past conversion for a Firefly campaign I want to run.Firefly... that enough is enough to pique my interest, sir.
If you get further in... please post or link please. The world needs more Firefly... in an incarnation.
A RPG already exsists for Firefly, it's called "Serenity" and was published by Margaret Weis Productions, however I don't think it's supported anymore. It used the Cortex system, not d20, but I kinda liked it.
Some Action Powers (this might need a better name!!!!) might include:
Action Boost: Increase the action point die from 1d6 to 1d8.
Action Surge: Add all your action point dice together when you spend 1 action point.
Active Critical: When you roll a critical threat, you can spend an action point to automatically confirm the critical hit.
Active Damage: Spend 1 action point and add the result to a single damage roll.
Active Defense: Increase your Defense by Action Point result for 1 round.
Active Durability: Spend 1 action point and gain DR/- equal to the result of action point die result for 1 round.
Active Feat: Spend 1 action point and gain the use of a feat you qualify for but do not possess for 1 round.
Active Focus: Spend 1 action point and add the results to the Save DC of one of your special abilities for 1 round.
Active Genius: If you roll a natural 20 on a skill check, you may spend an action point and roll an additional 1d20 and add it to the skill check result.
Active Pool: You increase the number of dice you roll when spending an action point by 1. You must be 10th level to select this action power.
Active Sprint: Spend 1 action point and increase your speed by 5 times the result of the action point die for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your character level.
Active Talent: Spend 1 action point and gain the use of a class talent you do not possess for 1 round. ...
What'd be cool here is make it a talent tree for those open levels. Action tree or something so they can customize their action point usage. Nifty idea.
A RPG already exsists for Firefly, it's called "Serenity" and was published by Margaret Weis Productions, however I don't think it's supported anymore. It used the Cortex system, not d20, but I kinda liked it.... I tend to ignore that one. I have it on the shelf... but I just can't get over the 'want to' to learn a different system...
What did you like about the system, and maybe that will inspire me...
Note: I have only read it, not played it. I too have it sitting on the shelf.
My impressions: I like that the characters are driven by skills and traits and not class, it's a classless system. Very role-play heavy as combat is something to be avoided at all costs. Combat is very deadly in that game, there are no potions or serums or anything that heals faster than time. I like the realistic space travel, no FTL. I like the feel of the world of Firefly, wild west in space. Truth be told there wasn't much to dislike about this game. The Cortex system is, different, not better or worse just, different.
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I noticed that there are various requests for a PF Modern game system that have been archived, but nothing in the recent months. I am assuming that the cry for a revised d20 modern system has all but waned. Shame. Please tell me I'm wrong.
I was just wondering about this and searched the boards to find this old post. My players wanted something different but i wanted to stick with pathfinder rules. I would love a modern version or the unspeakable futures book i keep hearing about. Is there a kickstarter or something i can throw my money at to make this happen? I so want this!