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For those that insist everything can be redeemed and executions are evil, where do you put the bad guys? How about the incorporial, teleporting, just to friggin big and strong to cage? Who monitors and makes sure they remain locked up? How much time and what resources do you use to transport them?
And who is liable if they do it agian, and again and.......?
Mark of Justice?
Everything cannot be redeemed. Even Sarenrae herself says so. Fiends, undead and certain evil divine casters are so tainted that no amount of Soul-Cleanser will get the stains out. Which takes care of most of your incorporeal enemies.
Redemption is to be offered for those who wish for it if you follow her. If they do not wish it, then your second obligation comes in; punishing the irredeemable and the heinous. And if someone makes a mockery of redemption and uses it as a way to get out and do more evil, then PCs know where you live. Which in and of itself can be a pretty strong deterrent. "Yeah, those guys who came to my lair and beat the crap out of me with next to no problem? I kinda wanna stay on their good side."
But the whole point of this is the whole "Is not offering mercy an evil act" thread, right? The monster in question THERE was offering surrender, had no part in the fight, actively took measures to not hurt anyone, and had done nothing wrong. That kind of effort warrants at least something more than the "Nope. You're a monster, my threefold meta-gaming will not allow you to live!" response the player meted out.
For those that insist everything can be redeemed and executions are evil, where do you put the bad guys? How about the incorporial, teleporting, just to friggin big and strong to cage? Who monitors and makes sure they remain locked up? How much time and what resources do you use to transport them?
And who is liable if they do it agian, and again and.......?
That is not what we said. It is always strange to me how some people always take things to extremes.
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Well, there are things you can do to keep them imprisoned. Evil casters just need to be put into antimagic jail cells. Other spells like dimensional anchor and the like can also help with this. But I do agree with Kamelguru somethings aren't capable of redemption. Being evil is just their nature and they can't change it. And really, if it's in there nature is it evil to punish them for not converting to good?
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Well, there are things you can do to keep them imprisoned. Evil casters just need to be put into antimagic jail cells. Other spells like dimensional anchor and the like can also help with this. But I do agree with Kamelguru somethings aren't capable of redemption. Being evil is just their nature and they can't change it. And really, if it's in there nature is it evil to punish them for not converting to good?
Reminds me of one of the novels in the Hawk and Fisher series. The guardsmen have to recapture the city prison due to a prison outbreak/riot. This includes the geas section for the magicians and for the extradimensional section for things (not just prisoners but cursed items, things that can't be quite explained) that are held for everyone's safety... well, for the city's safety. The reason why they keep some of the dangerous stuff is because the city ruler's believe they can possibly use the assets later on... if at all possible.
sometimes things are too powerful for NPC's to kill but they can find a way to imprison them, this leads to prisons being built around some villains.
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I know one game I was in we couldn't kill the BBEG due to fluff and this whole if he dies the world is destroyed, but at the same time he can't be allowed to keep destroying things. There was no way any normal prison could be built for this guy and there was no way to redeem him. We ended deciding to use the imprisonment spell and had a fortress secretly built on a demiplane to store the gem. But even this proved a moral quandry for our characters because we as characters and players veiwed the imprisonment spell as a little evil.
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For those that insist everything can be redeemed and executions are evil, where do you put the bad guys? How about the incorporial, teleporting, just to friggin big and strong to cage? Who monitors and makes sure they remain locked up? How much time and what resources do you use to transport them?
And who is liable if they do it agian, and again and.......?That is not what we said. It is always strange to me how some people always take things to extremes.
He was doing it through the entire thread, reducing the other side to caricatures like that in the opening post here.
Kamelguru has it right here, though.
Also, adding to mark of justice above: baleful polymorph, be a tree, jungle's rapture...
They become Sealed Evil in a Can awaiting the next plot arc for some poor fool to awaken them.
For those that insist everything can be redeemed and executions are evil, where do you put the bad guys?
Nobody said that....but what the hey. What kinda of bad guys we are talking about? Prisons don't redeem the bad guys much usualy...So you are looking at it entirely the wrong way. But than again I think it helps you sleep at night.
How about the incorporial, teleporting, just to friggin big and strong to cage?
That is easy...I don't even know if you are serious or not in asking this.
Who monitors and makes sure they remain locked up?
Um...the guards...and people who are good at converting evil people I would guess.
How much time and what resources do you use to transport them?
And who is liable if they do it agian, and again and.......?
Um...who says that good people have to keep accpting the 'surrender'...I don't think anybody has. Fool me once shame on you...fool me twice shame on me.
Heck even the Eldath faith in the FR (who actualy have places that you speak of) does not expect her faithful only accepts a surrender if they give a oath to try to convert to good...if they go back on said oath their are fair game if they try to surrender.
If you want permanency, then a sticking him in a bag of holding and then destroying it will permanently lock them away anyone without planeshift. A stat drain on casters prior to entry will shut off casters as well.
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If you want permanency, then a sticking him in a bag of holding and then destroying it will permanently lock them away anyone without planeshift. A stat drain on casters prior to entry will shut off casters as well.
I'm suddenly reminded of the Justice League episode with the Justice Lords and how all the inmates of Arkham had been labotamized.
Perhaps if there is a magical way to "disconnect" someone from magic and make them unable to handle it in any form - like a permanent anti-magic zone - it could work fairly well for mages. Some form of permanent energy drain could also work. This wouldn't be for regular pickpockets or smugglers, mind you.
How about this.
Anyone who is cowering on the floor, chained, begging for mercy, you uh, I don't know, give them mercy? Declare an action to attack if they attack, use sense motive? Tie them up if they are seriously surrendering. Mask them if they have a gaze attack? Take them to a church to see if they are serious (sense motive and zone of truth).
If they are serious, then you may redeem them. At the very least, they go to jail for any crimes they commited. If they have a gaze attack, you keep them in a mask for their duration of their sentence. If they didn't, you release them after giving them a mask they can remove for self defense?
So what happens if they lie and attack? You kill them. What happens if they surrender, escape, and surrender again? You kill them. Nobody said you have to be stupid. Once they've burnt their chance at redemption, they're done, let the gods sort them out.
The point of good is that it gives that first chance, because it's good. Evil doesn't, by definition. Evil kills out of convenience, if good kills because it's more convenient, then it's not good, it's evil.
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I am not asking for any bleed over from ONE senario from another thread, i am questioning the trend for all games when good and evil come into play with prisoners. Good is expected to honor all surrender so HOW do you contain them and who pays? Anti magic cells and adamant bar cost a lot. Guards of high levels must be rare. What do you do?
I am not asking for any bleed over from ONE senario from another thread, i am questioning the trend for all games when good and evil come into play with prisoners. Good is expected to honor all surrender so HOW do you contain them and who pays? Anti magic cells and adamant bar cost a lot. Guards of high levels must be rare. What do you do?
Good isn't supposed to honor all surrenders. It is supposed to respect life, and apply mercy.
A simply answer might simply be to start a business of manufacturing helmets of opposite alignment and having the prisoner use it until they fail their save throw and become good.
Though I would argue that such a choice is *probably* not a good action either.
Besides it isn't all about always accepting surrender -- it is all about the actions involved.
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Perhaps if there is a magical way to "disconnect" someone from magic and make them unable to handle it in any form - like a permanent anti-magic zone - it could work fairly well for mages. Some form of permanent energy drain could also work. This wouldn't be for regular pickpockets or smugglers, mind you.
A cursed magic item that can't be removed, that radiates an anti-magic shell that affects the wearer (AMZ, population you!), could work.