I've been having lots of fun with my Witch in the current campaign, but I've run into a bit of a stumbling block. The last major area we've dealt with was mostly undead, which made them immune to my biggest guns. Not only could I not use my Evil Eye and Misfortune hexes, most of my spells are mind-affecting or require a fortitude save (which Undead are therefore immune to). I soldiered on though, and found myself a pretty sweet staff as a result.
Now it's been strongly hinted however that the next major section is going to be composed of mostly plant creatures. Great, more things immune to my hexes. At least my fort-save spells will work, but it's still a bit of a pisser.
So, anyone got some advice on how to at least make the best of it?
Traits: Failed Apprentice, Focused Mind
Feats: Toughness, Extra Hex x2
Hexes: Flight, Healing, Ward, Evil Eye, Misfortune, Cackle
Familiar: Hawk (likely a Pseudodragon next level)
Spells: Animate Rope, Burning Hands, Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Burning Gaze, Glitterdust, Web, Bestow Curse, Ray of Exhaustion, Lightning Bolt, Major Image, Stinking Cloud
Obviously I have more spells than that, but I left out personal buffs and the spells that simply won't work. I don't have access to get new spells beyond what I've currently got, unless they're on the Cleric spell list. Even then, it's a maybe.
The staff I have has Ray of Enfeeblement, Vomit Swarm, False Life, Sleet Storm (2) and Black Tentacles (3). Though I don't know how many charges I've got left yet, and I can't recharge it until I get 4th level spells next level, so it's a last-resort type thing at the moment.
Misfortune works on any and all foes you come across. It is not an enchantment nor is it "mind effecting". It lacks any tag at all and therefore works on everything.
PRD quote:
Misfortune (Su): The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Compare this to
Evil EYE which says "This is a mind-affecting effect. "
or
Charm "This is a mind-affecting charm effect. "
As a side note, Retribution (major hex) also has no descriptor meaning that it works on anything and everything.
-S
Misfortune works on any and all foes you come across. It is not an enchantment nor is it "mind effecting". It lacks any tag at all and therefore works on everything.
*facepalm*
hehe :)
I think Agony should be "works on everyone" and misfortune "mind effecting" myself.. just because of their relative power.
We've yet to meet a foe that I didn't misfortune- assuming it lived long enough for my initiative to come up.
Couple it with Ability Focus: Misfortune Hex for more fun (from the Bestiary, if allowed by your DM)
-S
The power of the witch hexes is such that I actually am in favor (and sometimes house rule it) that witches get hex uses per day; same progression as barbarian rage but keyed to Intelligence.
When playing a witch it helps to have a hex or two that can aid allies in case the "offensive" hexes aren't effective for some reason.
The power of the class is based on the hexes. They really need them or they are greatly hosed.
The spell list, while interesting, isn't good enough to warrant a substantial nerfing of their hexes.. at least not to me.
The real "weakness" in them is .. one at a time.
You want misfortune? standard action. Agony? Standard action. Evil Eye? Standard Action.
Want to do that And keep them going? gotta cackle. If you misfortune on round 1 you hafta cackle every round or it goes away and once its gone its gone forever. And heaven forbid the creature save against it. Then its just.. gone.
I love my witch but if I could only use their primary feature a small handful of times a day It'd be practically unplayable, imo.
Remember that Barbarians can swing their sword regardless of whether or not they rage. Bards have bardic performance, spells, light armor, *and* medium bab.
Witches have crap bab, crap HP, a mediocre spell list.. and hexes.
If you remove the hexes you just have bleh.
-S
At level 1 the typical witch (assume 18 int) has 8 hex uses a day. Plenty for just a single hex. At level 5 the typical witch (with 20 int) would have 4 + 4 x 2 + 5 = 17 hexes a day. By level 10 that would be (22 int) 4 + 9 x 2 + 6 = 28 hexes a day. (And naturally the feat "extra hex uses" - 6 extra hex uses a day exists as well in this scenario.)
I seriously don't think that its too little hex uses a day. I don't have that much trouble keeping the daily rage-uses in check for my barbarian, so I doubt that you would prematurely over-use your hexes per day in the first encounter. The witch is still a full caster aside from the hexes. The spell list is not merely "interesting"; it is a good spell list that is just not quite as all-inclusive as the wizard's. Some may disagree, but I think witches are more powerful than wizards by a noticeable margin.
Bards have a pitiable amount of spells compared to witches and tight selection; bardic performance *is* limited to a certain number of rounds so a good comparison for what I propose for hexes.
Having limited hexes per day also makes witches more than 1 trick ponies.
8 hexes a day.
that's 4 combats of 2 rounds each or 3 combats of 3 rounds each.
And then goes into how do you count cackle extending 3 hexes into infinity or whatnot.
To me, the existing mechanic works just fine. The witch alone can't hardly kill anything he is just a combat assist. Unlike the Bard which can actually have a capable melee or ranged build. (letting them do something when they aren't using their performance).
YMMV of course.
-S
I seriously don't think that its too little hex uses a day. I don't have that much trouble keeping the daily rage-uses in check for my barbarian, so I doubt that you would prematurely over-use your hexes per day in the first encounter. The witch is still a full caster aside from the hexes. The spell list is not merely "interesting"; it is a good spell list that is just not quite as all-inclusive as the wizard's. Some may disagree, but I think witches are more powerful than wizards by a noticeable margin.
Add me to that list of those who would disagree. The Witch's spell list has a distinct lack of offensive staples, particularly in situations like I created this thread about. And they are certainly not more powerful than a wizard. Consider the following:
- Wizards get an additional spell per day, per spell level, for their school specialization.
- Their familiars are not their spellbook, and thus can be risked a little more freely.
- They can go without a familiar at all and instead gain another spell per day, spontaneous at that, as well as a free item crafting feat for their bonded item.
- Their versatility in regards to spells is unmatched. Even if a spell is in one of their prohibited schools, they can can still use scrolls and wands of that spell without penalty.
And that's just in regards to spellcasting ability. Witches may be a "full caster", but they are the most limited full caster in the game. Having the at-will hexes is what makes up for this.
The witch may lack some breadth in their spell list to make up for their at will hexes, but they have enough of a selection to be useful in most circumstances.
@OP: Animate rope is a decent disabling spell that works on just about any corporeal being. Burning hands can do adequate damage at close range. Burning gaze can do a decent amount of damage over the course of a combat, especially if targets catch on fire and/or are carrying flammables. Web is almost always useful. Lightning bolt is a good direct damage spell.
You may want to acquire a scroll of spectral hand and several touch range spells (to include vampiric touch) to add to your familiar. Also, the various summon monster spells can be a good addition.
@Selgard
Using a cackle on a turn is one hex use a day. Whether it extends 1 or 10 hexes is not relevant. Its that simple: use a hex, it counts against your daily limit. "Extending" a hex is not using a hex.
Do you even use 28ish hexes a day at level 10? The witches in our campaigns by that level average 15 to 35 hex uses a day. So at best that makes you be a bit more selective. Then you still have spells and feats and whatever else you did with your witch.
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Thinking of the witch's spells as "very limited" is not being particularly fair. Just because she has to choose from 5 instead of 10 damaging/save-or-suck spells per level, doesn't make it a spell selection that isn't combat viable.
Also there's nothing stopping you from building a frightening combat-orientated witch. My girlfriend plays a witch in one of our campaigns where she has the highest AC in the group, dazzling display and high Dex and she thoroughly participates in combat. Using arcane armor training can be a really good feat for a witch.
I've been having lots of fun with my Witch in the current campaign, but I've run into a bit of a stumbling block. The last major area we've dealt with was mostly undead, which made them immune to my biggest guns. Not only could I not use my Evil Eye and Misfortune hexes, most of my spells are mind-affecting or require a fortitude save (which Undead are therefore immune to). I soldiered on though, and found myself a pretty sweet staff as a result.
Now it's been strongly hinted however that the next major section is going to be composed of mostly plant creatures. Great, more things immune to my hexes. At least my fort-save spells will work, but it's still a bit of a pisser.
So, anyone got some advice on how to at least make the best of it?
** spoiler omitted **
What mind-influencing spells do you have access to? You might be able to use your mind-affecting spells indirectly against the plants (charming or using Suggestion on npcs to help you fight against the plants or give you anti-plant stuff, for example. Find people who are seriously torked by the plants or whatever- using Suggestion on them to help you may seem like a 'reasonable request'.)
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Also have a witch in our party. Yes she rarely kills anything but what happens when the party is fighting a giant who is suddenly starving? Or suddenly thirsty? Or misfortune with cackle and phantasmal killer?
Most the party loves the witch and feels that every fight without her is harder than it needed to be.
Curious though couldn't a witch use quicken spell like ability? Or some other monster feat along those lines? Ours doesn't yet... namely due to not being sure on legality of it.
Nah. Hexes are Su, and Quicken Sp-Like applies only to Sp-Like.
What is a good combo however, is to take minor-spell like ability (ill omen) and quicken sp-like on it. Now, twice per day, you can pretty much ensure a failed save.
As far as placing a daily limit on hexes, I'm not really sure I see the point. Quite a large number of things are already immune to a large portion of the Witch's hexes, so it's not like they're incredibly game-breaking. Also, with the exception of Evil Eye, a creature can only be targeted by a hex at most once per day.
Granted, the hex limit does place a bound on actions like "I cast fortune on everyone in the party and continuously cackle while we travel".
So does laryngitis :D (not really as a supernatural the witch doesn't actually have to make noise to use cackle)
The hexes might not be horribly unbalanced - but they are still very strong. Consider that most of the time a witch (in combat) uses her hexes in every round of combat not because it is an unlimited resource - but it is the best option to use which will make the biggest impact on the fight. This means the witches spells are actually a secondary/fall-back tactic - on a primary caster! In other words, hexes are strong enough to be the combat main-stay of the witch. Any ability that is that strong should be limited.
Now the limit I propose is in no way restrictive. It is a very generous limit that does not make each hex used a valuable resource (like a monk's ki pool) - instead it is something that can be used in every fight for pretty much all of the fight.
How many threads have you seen that complain: "My barbarian cannot rage long enough! What's with this unbalanced rage-limit?"
Lorekeeper I would suggest you have it reversed -- the hexes are the primary on purpose while the spell casting is supplemental.
Lorekeeper I would suggest you have it reversed -- the hexes are the primary on purpose while the spell casting is supplemental.
Oh I agree. I don't want witches to *not* use their hexes. It is the most defining feature of a witch. Hexes are cool. But hexes shouldn't be an unlimited resource.
Bardic performances and rages are primary aspects of their respective classes and they have arguably less relevant an impact than the hexes of a witch.
Lorekeeper I would suggest you have it reversed -- the hexes are the primary on purpose while the spell casting is supplemental.Oh I agree. I don't want witches to *not* use their hexes. It is the most defining feature of a witch. Hexes are cool. But hexes shouldn't be an unlimited resource.
Bardic performances and rages are primary aspects of their respective classes and they have arguably less relevant an impact than the hexes of a witch.
I fully agree hexes have more impact -- however the other classes have more going for them than the witch does.
Bards have: Armor, shields, medium BAB, sixth spell level with reduced spell levels (many of the witch's spells are at increased spell level), 6+ Int skill points, versatile performance, bardic lore, two good savevs, and a bit more -- in addition to the bardic performances which cover a large range of uses.
Barbarians have: uncanny dodge, Full BAB, d12 hit dice, 4+Int skill points, fast movement, DR, full weapon proficiency (simple and martial), medium armor, and rage powers on top of rage itself (which they typically have enough of).
The witch has: A vulnerable, but possibly useful spellbook, a mix of support and debuffing spells (a bit more but these more than the others), 9th level spells, and hexes.
Other spell casters have:
Clerics:
Channel energy, and 2 domains, armor, medium BAB, two good saves, 9th level spells, full access to all spells available.
Druids have:
Companion(or a domain), wild shape, host of immunities/abilities, medium armor, medium BAB, two good saves, 4+int skill points, and a bit more (not much more though), 9th level spells, full access to all spells available (as opposed to a spell book or limited number of spells known).
Wizards have:
School powers (including universalists) which include a bonus and a mechanic, a first level power, a sixth through 8th level power and a capstone (for most), bonus feats, more spells per day, a generally less vulnerable spell book, better spell list
Sorcerers have:
Bloodline powers, bonus feats, better spell list, 9th level spells(I generally feel sorcerers are shafted for the most part as full casters)
Oracles have:
Everything the sorcerer has, plus medium BAB, more class abilities (including a capstone), 4+int skill points, a "curse" that grants more powers, medium armor (I only hate the oracle in comparison to the sorcerer)
Summoners have:
Eidolon, spell like summoning, 6th level spells, armor, medium BAB
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Out of all the casters (and classes) the witch is the lightest on abilities, base mechanics, spell list, and heaviest on vulnerability -- the only thing that keeps the witch floating is those Hexes... they need to be as powerful as they are.
Certainly. That is why I don't propose it should have a ki-pool like progression. Do you really need more than (average) 28 hex uses per day at level 10?
The idea that anything about a Witch needs a nerf is preposterous.
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To be fair to LoreKeeper, what is or is not to powerful often depends on how a game is done. I have been in games where scribe scroll was one of the most powerful abilities, just cause of how the GM ran things. Then I have been in some where spells where so rare that melee classes outshined Wizards.
So while I don't think the witch needs a hexes limited personally, I think that would limit them to much. If anything I think the witch could use some minor tweaking up. But I can understand why in his games that for them, hexes might be to strong if unlimited. As long as him and his players are happy with it.
As for the OP, well others have covered it fairly well. But yes against mindless stuff the witches are not as effective. Though I have to ask does your group allow 3pp stuff? If so you might want to check out SGG's book on witches hexes, if memory serves it added some more hexes that are useful against most things.
Perhaps I'm being strange; but to me the hexes become more special if they are a limited resource.
@OP: I fully expect the witch to get plenty more options in Ultimate Magic; so hope that your undead slaying dilemmas will dissipate then.
Certainly. That is why I don't propose it should have a ki-pool like progression. Do you really need more than (average) 28 hex uses per day at level 10?
Yes quite possibly -- consider all the hexes -- not just the 'combat' ones: We have healing that is already limited, flight, tongues, and brew potion -- what are you going to do with these? How about the coven hex, vision hex?
Also let me turn the question around: Do you really need 23+ rounds of rage a day for a barbarian at level 10?
If the answer is "yes" and the barbarian has more than simple rage going for him now, imagine how much more the witch needs when their abilities without hexes are some much more limited, and include non-combat related abilities like the ones I pointed out above.
Having played a witch I used my hexes a lot -- however I used my spells a lot too -- direct damage on occasion is good and hexes are only really good if you have the time to keep applying them at the same target over multiple rounds -- not so great if you have a lot of opponents on the field at the same time.
Stinking cloud, web, grease and sleep all still have their place with the witch, as does the rest of the spells.
The only time I focused on just using hexes were in the following situations:
1. Spell resistance or immunity I couldn't over come.
2. Single target fights where Evil Eye had a direct impact on effectiveness of the opponent.
3. Single/two round fights -- I didn't get a chance to get to the point of actually dropping the spell I was building up to.
I don't have trouble with rationing my rages. 4 fights with 5 rounds of rage are perfectly fine for my character at level 10. If the day becomes a 6 or more encounter day, then the barbarian rightfully suffers from lack of rage - but conversely the witch has no trouble keeping going. In fact she cannot run out of hexes.
A barbarian without rage is significantly nerfed. Sure, he can still hit with his weapon, but he'll be very subpar - the list of rage powers that are active while he rages make a substantial difference to his combat output. That is why rationing yourself and carefully spending your rage rounds is an important consideration for barbarians. I like that aspect of barbarians, and that is in part why I want to instate that kind of thing for hexes. As I said before, I like hexes - I would think they are even more cool if they were a limited resource.
Well I can hardly fault you for having an opinion.
I kind of wish that hexes were actually more of what the witch was about. I would have been okay with the spell casting being cut more in favor of more (and later) better hexes -- but that's just me.
Editted the wrong post.
@Selgard
Using a cackle on a turn is one hex use a day. Whether it extends 1 or 10 hexes is not relevant. Its that simple: use a hex, it counts against your daily limit. "Extending" a hex is not using a hex.
Do you even use 28ish hexes a day at level 10? The witches in our campaigns by that level average 15 to 35 hex uses a day. So at best that makes you be a bit more selective. Then you still have spells and feats and whatever else you did with your witch.
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Thinking of the witch's spells as "very limited" is not being particularly fair. Just because she has to choose from 5 instead of 10 damaging/save-or-suck spells per level, doesn't make it a spell selection that isn't combat viable.
Also there's nothing stopping you from building a frightening combat-orientated witch. My girlfriend plays a witch in one of our campaigns where she has the highest AC in the group, dazzling display and high Dex and she thoroughly participates in combat. Using arcane armor training can be a really good feat for a witch.
I can't count how many hexes I used for our last "adventuring day". We were storming a keep of ogres. I used Misfortune on every. Single. One. And every combat that lasted 2+ rounds, i used cackle + another hex. Every single round.
Except one. For one combat, I cast Hold Monster first. We cleared two full levels and next game we'll probably clear beneath the keep (assuming there is an extensive area beneath it.. we really don't know yet).My witch is 7th level. We killed no less than 12 ogres if not 13. That right there is 13 hexes assuming every combat lasted 1 round. None of them lasted one round. At least two of them lasted 4-5 if not 7 rounds.
I don't mind having a limited resource when I have something else to do that is useful. The witch is designed around having an unlimited but not super powerful resource in their hexes. If it was drastically limited, as you have suggested, I'd impale myself on a spear and come back as something more useful.
I'm glad your players are finding ways to not use their hexes so often. I am playing the witch because I found the Hex idea intriguing. I can't hardly kill anything but I can still be extremely useful in the fight. I really enjoy it. Without it I'd just go back to a bard. (last one died or I'd still be one actually).
-S
This kind of way of playing the witch I find troublesome. It leads to this kind of scenario: "I only need to focus on hexes, the hexes only require high Int to the DC, so I'll get the Int up high, and everything else doesn't really matter and I can just hex all day long." Now I'm not accusing you or saying that's how you play your witch - but that is what the witch is being reduced to in many cases.
There is no incentive to make a more diverse (speaking in mechanical terms) character because the character just works so well with the SAD-focused design. There is no evolutionary pressure to try and do anything else.
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This kind of way of playing the witch I find troublesome. It leads to this kind of scenario: "I only need to focus on hexes, the hexes only require high Int to the DC, so I'll get the Int up high, and everything else doesn't really matter and I can just hex all day long." Now I'm not accusing you or saying that's how you play your witch - but that is what the witch is being reduced to in many cases.
There is no incentive to make a more diverse (speaking in mechanical terms) character because the character just works so well with the SAD-focused design. There is no evolutionary pressure to try and do anything else.
Check out my Age of Worms campaign journal "Witches against the Age of Worms" down in the CJ section.
Basic premise: everyone plays a Witch, with the traditional adventuring roles taken up by specific character generation choices.
Only one session in, but its looking promising.
This kind of way of playing the witch I find troublesome. It leads to this kind of scenario: "I only need to focus on hexes, the hexes only require high Int to the DC, so I'll get the Int up high, and everything else doesn't really matter and I can just hex all day long." Now I'm not accusing you or saying that's how you play your witch - but that is what the witch is being reduced to in many cases.
There is no incentive to make a more diverse (speaking in mechanical terms) character because the character just works so well with the SAD-focused design. There is no evolutionary pressure to try and do anything else.
Firstly: it isn't how I play my witch. My lowest score is a 10 (and it isn't Cha).
Secondly:
Your argument is a design flaw in primary casters- not a reason to pick out the witch's hexes and nerf them. "Omg he only has one stat" works for every full caster class. Sure, druids and clerics can also go a melee route but they do not have to. Both are fully capable of going the full-caster route.
And full caster via hex and spell supplementation is what the Witch is best at. Nothing else they have or can get is as useful as their hexes. This is by design. It is what makes them a unique class.
If you take away their hexes by seriously nerfing their ability to use them then all you've really done is ask your witches to reroll wizards.
I want my witch to be a witch, not a wizard. Leave their hexes alone :)
-S
This kind of way of playing the witch I find troublesome. It leads to this kind of scenario: "I only need to focus on hexes, the hexes only require high Int to the DC, so I'll get the Int up high, and everything else doesn't really matter and I can just hex all day long." Now I'm not accusing you or saying that's how you play your witch - but that is what the witch is being reduced to in many cases.
There is no incentive to make a more diverse (speaking in mechanical terms) character because the character just works so well with the SAD-focused design. There is no evolutionary pressure to try and do anything else.
While it is your game and if your players are happy with it than stick to it...but I don't get your logic here.
You nerf hexes so they rely on spells more...so they won't be SAD...but the DCs of their spells and bonus spells rely on Int. So I don' get why witches in your game still won't focus on bumping int as high as possible?
While it is your game and if your players are happy with it than stick to it...but I don't get your logic here.You nerf hexes so they rely on spells more...so they won't be SAD...but the DCs of their spells and bonus spells rely on Int. So I don' get why witches in your game still won't focus on bumping int as high as possible?
Of course they can still do that. But at least, as a GM, I know that there is a limit to the effectiveness of the build - they'll eventually run out of resources. Why is that relevant? Because it means they will have to look into alternative ways to remain meaningful.
Hexes are cool; and the more hexes get released (upcoming Ultimate Magic) the cooler they get. In my experience a hex is worth nearly as much as the highest level spells castable at that level. Of course, some hexes get more mileage out of the system than others, but think of it this way: would a level 17 wizard be balanced if he could cast level 1, 2 and 3 spells like cantrips?