All I can say is that our 2010 sales were 4 times our 2009 sales, and that was with releasing only a single major product after April 2010.Him thats funny, I think I started reviewing in early March last year. ;p
Trust her. she's a succubus.
Him thats funny, I think I started reviewing in early March last year. ;p
I know for certain that your reviews have helped here at Paizo. There is always a spike in sales of one of our products after your review goes up.
Him thats funny, I think I started reviewing in early March last year. ;pI know for certain that your reviews have helped here at Paizo. There is always a spike in sales of one of our products after your review goes up.
I know a couple of posters have said, "I picked up <purple duck product X> or <purple duck product y> based on the Dark Mistress' recommendation" and we are not even on Paizo.
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Him thats funny, I think I started reviewing in early March last year. ;pI know for certain that your reviews have helped here at Paizo. There is always a spike in sales of one of our products after your review goes up.I know a couple of posters have said, "I picked up <purple duck product X> or <purple duck product y> based on the Dark Mistress' recommendation" and we are not even on Paizo.
** spoiler omitted **
Well I also post the reviews up on Drivethru when I am able. Other than the ones you just email. Since drivethru limits reviews to those who have DLed from them only. Which is why i tell companies if the want to send me a review copy they should do it with a promotion code threw drivethru/RPGnow. So I can post up reviews there too.
I was happier when the discussion segued to ice cream. Can we get back to that?
[snip]
2) Branch out from Pathfinder, or, as the saying goes, don't put all your eggs in one basket. For the most part, many 3PP are already doing that by supporting other RPGs. Later this months is our first product supporting M&M 3e and later this summer is our first original game system. Gamers want to game, and if we produce quality material - for any game system - they'll spend their money to buy it.
I had the best ice cream last night! Friendley's no sugar added vanilla with no sugar added fudge! For those of us watching our sugar intake, this was absolute heaven!
Seriously, diversification is the way to go. JBE also does Traveller. And while Pathfinder sells better, producing quality Traveller titles is very much apart of our overall strategy. Literally, our first two print books were financed by our d66 series, 50 cent lists of names and ideas for game play. We have no intention of stopping that revenue stream anytime soon, even if Pathfinder sells better. The quantity of work involved is considerably less.
To be q business you sometimes have to plan for things that you don't like, like if the Pathfinder license should end/not sell well enough for us to continue. It'll be a sad day should that ever happen, but it is a plan we have anticipated and deal with if necessary.
Well I also post the reviews up on Drivethru when I am able. Other than the ones you just email. Since drivethru limits reviews to those who have DLed from them only. Which is why i tell companies if the want to send me a review copy they should do it with a promotion code threw drivethru/RPGnow. So I can post up reviews there too.
BTW DM, how does someone that wants to send you review copies get in contact with you?
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BTW DM, how does someone that wants to send you review copies get in contact with you?
Well I also post the reviews up on Drivethru when I am able. Other than the ones you just email. Since drivethru limits reviews to those who have DLed from them only. Which is why i tell companies if the want to send me a review copy they should do it with a promotion code threw drivethru/RPGnow. So I can post up reviews there too.
Post a email for me to use and then I will send you a email from my personal account. i never post that email anywhere to avoid spam. So I just ask people to put there email up and then I will email them from that account and then they can add me to their address book.
The whole argument about market "overcrowding" seems to assume that the customer base is static. It's not.
I've introduced people to 3PP products that I've purchased, and they've started purchasing those. They have, in turn, explored and found product that I had been unaware of and ignored, and I've purchased that.
A similar consumer growth of one publisher isn't at the detriment of another publisher, as these aren't consumers who chose to forgo one for the other. They're NEW consumers.
I like more choices. You have to be able fight with competition if you want to survive as an actual business. You have to start producing better, not more.
If you're really worried about being pushed out of the market then you need to get your face out there and publish really good material. You know... common logic :p
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The whole argument about market "overcrowding" seems to assume that the customer base is static. It's not.
That's an important point - the market doesn't become 'overcrowded' if the overall size of the market is expanding. And although the RPG market as a whole has had a rough couple of years, Pathfinder's slice of the pie has been growing at an incredible rate. Plus it is possible that the industry may see a slight recovery in the next year or two as the global economy recovers from recession. So there may be room for additional 3PP to enter the market in the near future without cutting into the profit margins of the established names.
The whole argument about market "overcrowding" seems to assume that the customer base is static. It's not.
Not static, but it is a niche and it has its limit of size. If you guess there are 1 million RPGs doing it weekly and if Paizo has 5% of the total market, they will continue to grow. But new people HAVE to be "recruited" into RPG gaming to replace those who leave for all kinds of reasons. The Basic Set by Paizo is a step in that direction.
That's an important point - the market doesn't become 'overcrowded' if the overall size of the market is expanding. And although the RPG market as a whole has had a rough couple of years, Pathfinder's slice of the pie has been growing at an incredible rate. Plus it is possible that the industry may see a slight recovery in the next year or two as the global economy recovers from recession. So there may be room for additional 3PP to enter the market in the near future without cutting into the profit margins of the established names.
But this pie will not grow at a infinite rate for an infinite time. There will be a point of marker saturation. It might take 6 months or 5 years, but there will be market saturation.
I like more choices. You have to be able fight with competition if you want to survive as an actual business. You have to start producing better, not more.
Apple produces the "better" PC, while IBM produces more, who do you think won the market share in that battle? Quality is the main decided when prices ins't an issue. Volvo is a great car, but I can only afford a Honda so what do I purchase? What I can afford.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I really wish this weren't true, but anecdotally, it sure seems so. My wife and I have redone our budget several times in the past two years so I can keep my subscriptions here, but it's been a near thing. I would have dearly loved to have been a patron of both your Kaidan and KQ's Midgard, if things weren't so tight.The point is people still aren't spending lots of money, or any amount close to what they spent before the 'recession'. So at least for RPG publishers the economic picture is rather bleak compared to earlier times.
But we all do the best we can to survive and succeed as possible.
+1 on budgets, Kaidan, Midgard and recession.
I've two friends living with me while job hunting in this 'recovery' and it has my budget stretched to the breaking point.
Apple produces the "better" PC, while IBM produces more, who do you think won the market share in that battle? Quality is the main decided when prices ins't an issue. Volvo is a great car, but I can only afford a Honda so what do I purchase? What I can afford.
"Better" is relative, but:
It's interesting you point that out, given the context of 3PP.
I'd argue that the reason why PCs are more popular than Apple is due to the 3PP, and how more of them show up every day. Certainly, price plays a factor, but the open nature of the platform plays just as much of a factor, if not more (as the open platform probably influences price significantly).
Apple is a closed platform, and while it's a great system for some, for the vast majority, it's overpriced and useless since it doesn't have that 3PP support.
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as the open platform probably influences price significantly).
Apple is a closed platform, and while it's a great system for some, for the vast majority, it's overpriced and useless since it doesn't have that 3PP support.
At the risk of a massive threadjack, I really disagree with your post.
"For the vast majority, it's (Apple) overpriced and useless since it doesn't have that 3PP support."
Overpriced and useless for the vast majority??? That is a pretty inaccurate statement. Apple products (Macintosh, iPhone, iPad, iPod) are used by MILLIONS of people and their popularity (and therefore market share) is growing all the time. Yes, there are more PC users but to say Apple products are “Overpriced and useless for the vast majority” just seems like you have an agenda.
Also, what is your point about 3PP companies? There are countless companies that make products for Apple. Plenty of software companies make software for the Mac, there are thousands of apps for the iPad and iPhone.
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your post, but I really feel strongly about this.
My thoughts.
You cannot control market saturation, you can do: "Good, Fast, Cheap" usually you pick two and attempt to do it better than anyone else.
I do believe that if your running your business efficiently a rising tide can float all boats, and pathfinder is a rising tide. Hence Pathways to make every Paizo customer aware of quality Pathfinder Compatible material.
Efficiency does mean looking toward the future and diversification hence creating our own default setting (Questhaven), targeting niche's paizo cannot serve (Jade Oath [wuxia], Kaidan [japanese horror], Coliseum Morpheuon [high level], Breaking of Fostor Nagar [virtual tabletops]), , and the development of games beyond pathfinder (Arcana Evolved, Erick Wujcik's Diceless System, and eventually our own stand alone game.)
Each 3PP is carving out their own niche to take advantage of. Some publishers don't poach on that territory out of common and excellent courtesy, others don't do simply because that company is just doing it with amazing skill (better, cheaper, and/or faster) so their is no hope of doing well in that niche, for example in my humble opinion no one could compete with Psionics Unleashed, but you could take advantage of the new licence and create a product supporting it.
Anyways back to working on the Questhaven campaign setting and creating Lurkers (half-gnome/half-cloakers).
Steve Russell
Rite Publishing
Post a email for me to use and then I will send you a email from my personal account. i never post that email anywhere to avoid spam. So I just ask people to put there email up and then I will email them from that account and then they can add me to their address book.
Email me is
Thanks.
Overpriced and useless for the vast majority??? That is a pretty inaccurate statement. Apple products (Macintosh, iPhone, iPad, iPod) are used by MILLIONS of people and their popularity (and therefore market share) is growing all the time. Yes, there are more PC users but to say Apple products are “Overpriced and useless for the vast majority” just seems like you have an agenda.as the open platform probably influences price significantly).
Apple is a closed platform, and while it's a great system for some, for the vast majority, it's overpriced and useless since it doesn't have that 3PP support.
It's not an agenda; it's cost efficiency. My girlfriend is a graphics designer by trade and she kneels at the throne of iJobs. For me, I tend to be frugal and want to be able to get what I can maximize out of a product while spending minimal dollars to get it. When I see the price of your average Macbook, I tell myself that I could equally spend the same amount to procure 3 PC laptops that would do the equivalent for my needs. Right now, she's engrossed with picking up an iPad, but I have a hard time wanting to invest in a platform that controls with an iron fist the majority of the applications that it allows on its devices verses the open-systems that other tablets allow. That and I frown upon not having USB support.
People could argue quality over quantity, but it's really only a matter for what use each individual is wanting out of said products.
C'est la vie.
I like more choices. You have to be able fight with competition if you want to survive as an actual business. You have to start producing better, not more.Apple produces the "better" PC, while IBM produces more, who do you think won the market share in that battle? Quality is the main decided when prices ins't an issue. Volvo is a great car, but I can only afford a Honda so what do I purchase? What I can afford.
I like Apple and I own Apple. Ironically I also have it dual-booted with Windows. But that's irrelevant.
Is Apple out of business? Do they still makes tons of money? Have they shifted some of their marketing to different products to become more successful? I'm going to say yes here. At least I haven't heard that Apple plans on declaring bankruptcy any time soon.
Your example on the whole though doesn't fit the situation. Sure I imagine some 3PP do put out some dirt cheap products, but I doubt they're also that large of products. On the whole prices are typically more level between the 3PP and RPG makers for the amount of content you get... that kinda makes prices less of a concern and quality more of a concern.
Sure now the person has to decide between product A and product B because there are more companies about, but then they'll be deciding based on need and quality of product. So what if a single consumer can't buy every product on the market, they're only going to buy what they need anyway. If 3PP aren't producing products people want then with more 3PP around people will have options to go elsewhere.
Quality is the issue here, not quantity. You won't get very far in the Pathfinder market these days if you don't produce high quality products.
Apple Stuff
I've no agenda. I own an iPhone4, an iPod Touch. I like them, they're great.
That aside, a quick look at Google suggests that, if one includes tablets (so, iPad) as a PC, Apple is poised to have 12% of the PC market in 2011.
88% of the market, then, does not use an Apple for a PC. That's the "vast majority" that I quoted, and for 88% of the market, Apple is useless.
Additionally, Apple products do tend to cost significantly more than their traditional PC counterparts, hence my "overpriced" comments. It would be fantastic to own a Mac laptop, but the cost and utility are major factors causing me to NOT buy one.
Yes, there are 3rd-party companies that make things for Apple. I didn't say there weren't. I said Apple doesn't have "that" 3rd-party support. To clarify: there is far more 3rd-party support for the traditional PC market than there is for Apple. More software is developed for PC (or even Linux) than Apple.
There's no agenda, I'm not going to compete in flag-waving for anyone's platform of choice, suffice it to say that it's not a matter of opinion that there's far more support for the traditional PC market than there is for Apple.
Also, what is your point about 3PP companies? There are countless companies that make products for Apple. Plenty of software companies make software for the Mac, there are thousands of apps for the iPad and iPhone.
There's far more 3PP support for OGL/3.5/PF than for other competing "closed-platform" or "restricted-platform" products from various publishers.
Spoilered for those that don't want to get involved.
Anyways back to working on the Questhaven campaign setting and creating Lurkers (half-gnome/half-cloakers).Steve Russell
Rite Publishing
Random aside...
I wonder how long it'll take me beating my GM over the head before he lets me play one :p
Still sounds awesome though!
@Max: Bribe him with a patronage or a copy of the book when it comes out, that always helps.
Email me isSpoiler:. I'll send you an email from my main address when you send me one.contact AT jonbrazer DOT com
For that matter, anyone interested in becoming a regular reviewer for us, please send me an email at the above address.
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Post a email for me to use and then I will send you a email from my personal account. i never post that email anywhere to avoid spam. So I just ask people to put there email up and then I will email them from that account and then they can add me to their address book.Email me is ** spoiler omitted **. I'll send you an email from my main address when you send me one.
Thanks.
Emails sent.
Emails sent.
And reply sent. Thanks,
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For just your products? Or 3PPs in general?Email me is ** spoiler omitted **. I'll send you an email from my main address when you send me one.For that matter, anyone interested in becoming a regular reviewer for us, please send me an email at the above address.
Imagine he means just for him. Since he couldn't send you stuff for anyone else but his stuff. Though if you are like me, you might start with one and then if people like it, 3pp publisher will start seeking you out to review their stuff. I did a few on my own of stuff I had bought, then Rite Publishing started sending me some of their stuff and it just snow balled from there. Now most of the companies send me some of their stuff to review and a couple send me nearly everything they make.
Which explains why I am always behind on reviews. :)
For just your products? Or 3PPs in general?
Well I don't have the authority to send out free products from anyone's account but my own, but if you want to contact me about being a reviewer for Super Genius, I promise to be really nice and point you in the right direction.
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For just your products? Or 3PPs in general?Email me is ** spoiler omitted **. I'll send you an email from my main address when you send me one.For that matter, anyone interested in becoming a regular reviewer for us, please send me an email at the above address.Imagine he means just for him. Since he couldn't send you stuff for anyone else but his stuff. Though if you are like me, you might start with one and then if people like it, 3pp publisher will start seeking you out to review their stuff. I did a few on my own of stuff I had bought, then Rite Publishing started sending me some of their stuff and it just snow balled from there. Now most of the companies send me some of their stuff to review and a couple send me nearly everything they make.
Which explains why I am always behind on reviews. :)
Sorry. Coffee hadn't fully "enriched" my brain.
Funny you mentioned Rite Publishing. Did a few reviews back in the past for the company before work took over my life. Reviewed some Paizo stuff as well. May try it again.
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For just your products? Or 3PPs in general?Well I don't have the authority to send out free products from anyone's account but my own, but if you want to contact me about being a reviewer for Super Genius, I promise to be really nice and point you in the right direction.
Sorry. Coffee hadn't fully "enriched" my brain this morn. ^_^
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I happen to be, and I must agree. I haven't visited Young's as often as I should. : ) Now I want ice cream too...hmmm...>:)
You're not anywhere near Southern Ohio are you? Young's Jersey Dairy in Yellow Springs is divine.
Columbus Ohio here, so it's Grater's country.
Now that said I'm from SE Ohio, so I've a soft spot for Old Mill ice cream, and home made lemon sherbet.
@Max: Bribe him with a patronage or a copy of the book when it comes out, that always helps.
Good idea!
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For just your products? Or 3PPs in general?Well I don't have the authority to send out free products from anyone's account but my own, but if you want to contact me about being a reviewer for Super Genius, I promise to be really nice and point you in the right direction.
I'll happily bestow upon you the power to make people reviewers for Super Genius! Just tell me who they are, and I'll get 'em copies to review!
With respect to all the writers
As the guy that actually pays for stuff
I have to say that if none of the kewl ideas are going to be supported or used by my players/dms or Paizo/WoTC, then there isnt much point in having the books, and anything that isnt used is "unneeded glut"We'd like to see the basic ideas expanded, within the rules of the system, so that we can use them in PFS and other gaming circles.
Ive noticed that much like the Palladium Books forum, the Paizo Fan base is very willing to tell what they want, and eager as puppies to support the companies that listen. Hopefully, everyone learned the lesson that PB still hasnt and will listen to the money-paying fans.
It is important to remember that the designers/writers and the publishers are also players, too. I don't know of any 3PP that just releases products because they are "kewl ideas". All of the publishers that post on these forums keep a close eye on what the players of the game want - but that also includes what the people they game with themselves want. I know that what the folks at my local game club say they would like to see weighs heavily in the types of things 4WFG produces.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I happen to be, and I must agree. I haven't visited Young's as often as I should. : ) Now I want ice cream too...hmmm...>:)
You're not anywhere near Southern Ohio are you? Young's Jersey Dairy in Yellow Springs is divine.
Columbus Ohio here, so it's Grater's country.
Now that said I'm from SE Ohio, so I've a soft spot for Old Mill ice cream, and home made lemon sherbet.
I love Coaticook ice cream. If you're ever in this area (7 hours Northeast of Ohio, I think) take a hike around Coaticook Gorge and then stop at the bottom of the hill for some ice cream. Yumm!
Paizo would help 3pp more by eother opening up more room for the products of 3pp to be used, or letting the authors know what not to "waste their time" on, if you know what I mean.
It's not Paizo's place to tell the 3PP what not to "waste their time" on. That also assume's that even Paizo knows exactly what every single player of the game wants, and they don't. Heck, read through the playtest forums and you'll find a lot of people that aren't going to use the upcoming character archetypes from Ultimate Combat. Should Paizo have not "wasted their time" on those?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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'Waste of time' is subjective.
Some people don't want oriental adventures, so is Jade Regent a 'waste of time'?
Some people didn't want the sandbox style AP of Kingmaker, was that a waste of time? Or were Jon Brazer's River Kingdoms a 'waste of time'?*
Surely my own arcane legionary is a waste of time? I mean heck, it's been through three revisions, (four if you count taking the original 3.x and making it to Pathfinder) and it's free (donations are always accepted of course).
If someone wants it, it's not a 'waste of time' to them. Heck if you make a profit off of it, then it's clearly not a waste of time to some people.
Will the Arcane Legionary ever be legal for PFS? I doubt it. Will you ever find a Monster of the River Kingdom in a scenario? Again doubtful. That said, I'd not consider the work a waste of time.
*
Not every gaming group that runs Pathfinder is running by PFS rules, and I couldn't guess what percentage of gamers have no interest in tourny play. For me, focusing on material for that aspect of the game would be pointless, if for no other reason than Pathfinder Society gaming doesn't include 3PP work.
I like the small gaming groups that just get together one night week and have and adventure in their dining room or at their FLGS's game room. That's the heart of the game, to me.
However, for the competition minded, I heartily recommend the Gold Guide to Competitive Gaming, which I have nothing to do with but is quite frankly one of the best collections of essay by gamers, and for gamers, you'll find.
If someone wants it, it's not a 'waste of time' to them. Heck if you make a profit off of it, then it's clearly not a waste of time to some people.
+1!
That is exactly it. Our Book of Arcane Magic has had a couple less than stellar reviews, and several good reviews. Some people don't want more spells - especially 3PP spells - in their game. That said, we've still sold nearly 600 combined print/PDF copies of that book. Certainly wasn't a waste of time for us.
I was sure that would be taken wrong. Its amazing how literal fantasy writers are.
If your works arent supported by the main company, arent supported for any large area organized play, and arent "stand alone", then they work only for individual game tables.
Which means, for people like me, that travel trough many gaming tables, its a crap-shoot as to if my favorites will be allowed at this table or not. Which leads to the same issue I currently have with all my 3E and 3.5 dead-weight, books I bought that were wasted money because I never got to use them, and now will never get to use them; fit only for paper recycling experiments with the kids. Dozens of books, thousands of dollars; down the drain, and I never got to use any of it.
So, if your product is likewise unsupported, ...
Well, in this economy, I cant afford to waste that much money again, especially if I never get to use the product.
Would it be possible for you to GM? Then you could show folks that 3PP products aren't going to eat their first born or something else silly.
I specifically mentioned that if he wanted a sandbox style game, go for Kingmaker, and that the River Kingdoms 3pp built on the mechanics in the AP. I think I made a convert.
Thank you Matt. I really appreciate it.
I was sure that would be taken wrong. Its amazing how literal fantasy writers are.
If your works arent supported by the main company, arent supported for any large area organized play, and arent "stand alone", then they work only for individual game tables.
Which means, for people like me, that travel trough many gaming tables, its a crap-shoot as to if my favorites will be allowed at this table or not. Which leads to the same issue I currently have with all my 3E and 3.5 dead-weight, books I bought that were wasted money because I never got to use them, and now will never get to use them; fit only for paper recycling experiments with the kids. Dozens of books, thousands of dollars; down the drain, and I never got to use any of it.
So, if your product is likewise unsupported, ...
Well, in this economy, I cant afford to waste that much money again, especially if I never get to use the product.
Its not a misunderstanding, its just that most gamers don't fall in your situation which sounds fairly unique. Its too bad you aren't the ideal customer for 3pp products. However, I think the vast majority are, and most are local only, weekly gamers. Nobody I know was ever a member of RPGA, nor a member of PFS. To me, that's a small segment of the market. I don't know any game stores that support PFS - most only support MtG, and barely D&D, or any RPG competitors.
If your works arent supported by the main company, arent supported for any large area organized play, and arent "stand alone", then they work only for individual game tables.
Organized play is a very, very small corner of the overall market. There are at least 10x as many "individual game tables" as PFS tables. And that is a very lowball guesstimate. In all probability it is more like 100x as many tables.
I've been playing with the same group for 4 years. Our campaign went from 3.5 to Pathfinder Beta to Pathfinder. I allow all sorts of 3PP material. An article on Tieflings from an early KQ issue. A binder from Secrets of Pact Magic. Spells from Arcana Evolved and other sources. That's just on the player side of things. I use Tome of Horrors, Book of Fiends, and other monster manuals when planning adventures.
I'm sorry you don't get to play with some of the cool toys. But the market potential is fairly big for 3PP. Green Ronin, Paizo, Mongoose, and many others wouldn't be here today if 3PP RPG products weren't a viable market.
