Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I run a lot of PFS games, and enjoy most of them.
I don't enjoy the encounters of a bunch of low CR monsters put up against the PCs.
I can never challenge the PC's and the PC's are never in danger.
I tried one last night with 12 CR 3 monsters against a 8-9 level party.
I needed mostly 20s to hit the party, I tried to trip the PC's first. I used my excellent +8 acrobatics and didn't avoid AoO vs mostly 20-25 CMD of party. I managed to deal 20 damage with my 12x Monks with 3 attacks a round. The +7 to hit they have is just insufficient to ever challenge the party.
So my real question is what can I do to challenge the party so we both (the DM and the players) are not bored of these encounters?
The only other option is to not play out the encounters, to just say "you kill em" but I can't exactly do that in society play.
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So my real question is what can I do to challenge the party so we both (the DM and the players) are not bored of these encounters?The only other option is to not play out the encounters, to just say "you kill em" but I can't exactly do that in society play.
Why not? Many of the GM's (me included) have run encounters cinematically. Once you realize that the challenge is no longer a challenge, why not treat it as such and not waste valuable time that could be used role-playing with the NPC's or added to combat time in later encounters.
There have been a few encounters where the PC's skills are well beyond the abilities of their opponents. What I have done is just narrate a blood-bath and have each of the PC's take one hit's worth of damage. Sure it might not use some resources (other than minor healing), but would they really have used their powerful, or one-shot items against a band of mooks? Probably not. The tanks would just wade in and slaughter them while the glass-cannons stay hidden.
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My advice:
1) Check with the Coordinator of the table that you are running. If that's you, this step is much easier.
2) Ask if they trust you enough to adjust the module to appropriately adjust the encounters to match your players. If that's you, also, much easier.
3) Appropriately adjust the encounters to make it fun and challenging. I wouldn't adjust them all, btw, but some.
4) Edit: As above, additionally, you can hand waive the encounters.
James, I've played with you. I know you know what the heck you're doing and to do it for the right reasons so I'd happily have you make things fun if I were our Local Coordinator.
I know you know you players better than I do.
-Pain
Darkness, surprise, terrain, pick on the wizard, potions (has the added advantage of drinking the treasure), fortifications, attack at night, use of traps, anything with a touch or area effect attack (half a dozen orcs throwing alchemists fire), have a good role playing reason why the characters mustn't actually kill their adversaries...
Having said all that, if the monsters are five or six challenge ranks lower than the PCs, there isn't going to be a lot you can do. One fighter with an ace AC can be really frustrating which is why the good lord invented touch attacks, will saves and grappling. The point of a single encounter is to use up PC resources (hits, spells, uses/day, potions) - if it's incapable of so doing, there isn't much point in running it aside from lulling the characters into a false sense of security so that the *next* time they run into twelve monks they won't worry until the fireball traps go off and the monks all make their saves with evasion...
Also, when you do find that it is necessary to play your 12 level 4 monks against a level 8-9 PCs, then don't be afraid to make use of their various abilities to work in tandem. It should be easy to have 1 monk team up with 3 team-mates to get flanking and +6 from aiding (an AC 10 attempt) - that should add a +8 onto the +7 for an effective +15 on the first attack of monk 1. Make sure to use a stunning fist attempt on all attacks when possible.
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Also, when you do find that it is necessary to play your 12 level 4 monks against a level 8-9 PCs, then don't be afraid to make use of their various abilities to work in tandem. It should be easy to have 1 monk team up with 3 team-mates to get flanking and +6 from aiding (an AC 10 attempt) - that should add a +8 onto the +7 for an effective +15 on the first attack of monk 1. Make sure to use a stunning fist attempt on all attacks when possible.
Tactics such as this work for a round or two before they rapidly ablate under the force applied by the higher level PCs.
One of the ways I have seen this type of combat work is when there are staggered waves of multiple low CR opponents. This can be made more exciting by having a timed task that the PCs need to complete at the same time (thank you Living Dragonstar).
Yup, there I think were a couple Living Dragonstar modules that did that.
But I also like, of course given the circumstances, the allowance to cinematically adjudicate the encounter. I would, under no circumstances, though, rewrite the encounter to make it tougher.
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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The point of a single encounter is to use up PC resources (hits, spells, uses/day, potions) - if it's incapable of so doing, there isn't much point in running it...
Combat encounters can serve a variety of purposes, and need not necessarily pose a meaningful challenge.
In a short scenario, most encounters should support the adventure's theme. They define the adventure's setting and build a sense of the environment in the players' minds.
Occasionally, foes exist solely to let the PCs can clean the floor with them and show off just how dangerous they really are. The opponents may reveal aspects of the plot or the ultimate villain ("Smelly Jaeg don't like nosy strangers."), but they don't really stand a chance against the party. These fights often happen at the start of the scenario, when the author wants the party to stay intact so they can move on to the meat of the scenario. Many "mook" encounters could be described this way.
Other encounters are meant to reward caution or "punish" careless play, allowing PCs to stumble into a lethal fight or other overwhelming challenge. Many trap encounters could be described this way.
If a party faces an encounter that doesn't really challenge them, a more cinematic approach to the fight is often appropriate. I've sometimes changed the visual description of a foe to add drama and build up the apparent challenge the party faces ("A hulking figure strides forward, shouldering aside the other orcs as he draws a massive, blood-crusted falchion. He levels his blade at the paladin and snarls a gutteral challenge!"). I might give the "champion" a few extra hit points so he doesn't drop with the first blow (points I stole from other, less-robust orcs), but basically he's identical to every other orc in the place.
Other fights can be played for comedy, as hopelessly-outmatched enemies employ increasingly-desperate tactics or absurd ruses.
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I think Wulf nailed it mostly. It's also entirely possible it's meant to be a fun, cinematic moment where characters who have area effect attacks (fireball/ bombs/ flame strike/flurry of blows/ whirlwind attack) can shine a bit.
Yeah, back when 3rd party folk were creating 3.0 stuff, one company created a Superior Cleave feat. Basically a step above Great Cleave, where you can make 5 foot steps between cleave attempts.
Imagine that level 9 two handed sword dynamo walking around a bunch of level 3 mooks.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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So my real question is what can I do to challenge the party so we both (the DM and the players) are not bored of these encounters?
It's not always getting the heroes to lose hitpoints to get them challenged. Give them the sense that's there is something of a time issue. If they don't kill those monsters in time terrible things will happen.
For instance: Silent Tide
First fight against the Numerian Hounds isn't really a challenge for most groups. Saving the innocents hanging from the cliff is.
Fight in the old cathedral with the organ, also not really challenging unless you play up the urgency of getting the organ playing again.
Or: Amongst the Living
The undead aren't that much of a challenge either. But all the innocent operawatching folk are very vulnerable. That and hinting (if the do a knowledge religion) the fallen innocents could possibly rise as zombies as well might get them challenged.
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I think Wulf nailed it mostly. It's also entirely possible it's meant to be a fun, cinematic moment where characters who have area effect attacks (fireball/ bombs/ flame strike/flurry of blows/ whirlwind attack) can shine a bit.
how about when the module says "this mob should force your party to barricade themselves inside" but