A player is coming in with a new character, a 4th level sorceror. He's picked the Infernal Bloodline.
The base bloodline power for that is Corrupting Touch: make a melee touch attack, and the victim becomes Shaken -- no save! -- for rounds equal to half your level. Shaken is -2 to attack rolls and saves, so that's a pretty nice debuff. It's balanced, of course, by the fact that you have to wade into melee, which is not where a primary spellcaster belongs.
So the player is toying with the idea of taking Spectral Hand as his single 2nd level spell, and then building a touch monkey: Shocking Hand, Ghoul Touch, and other touch spells.
Say he decides to go this route.
(1) What are some other ways to leverage this build? (Put aside whether it's an optimal build or not. I don't think it's an obviously bad one, at least for the next few levels.) Are there enough low (1-4) level touch spells to make this worthwhile? (2) From the DM's point of view, what are some possible concerns / things to watch out for?
Thanks in advance,
Doug M.
I would suggest Aberrant bloodline for a touch attack based sorcerer, spectral hand's duration is pretty limiting and burns up valuable spells and a spell known. The stretch arm strong aberrant works pretty good for touch builds, with his reach increasing a few times.
It's pretty easy for a sorcerer to get a high intimidate if you want to make things shaken. Scare the pants off them then cast stuff!
Aberrant is likely the best touch option given reach. Corrupting touch...not so hot nor optimal for touching.
Remember that touch attacks can be delivered through unarmed strikes and natural attacks, which makes the Abyssal and Draconic both decent options since they give claws. Draconic also increases your natural armor to help stay up front.
As far as touch spells to consider:
Chill Touch gives touches/level that deals 1d6 damage + 1 strength damage, main perk being its a tier 1 spell with multiple charges.
Shocking Grasp deals 1d6~5d6 lightning damage that gets a +3 to hit tarets with metal. Just one attack, but pretty accurate level 1 spell (only one attack).
Elemental Touch is a sweet option because it is actually a buff that gives you 1d6 elemental damage of your choice and one of four neat effects based on that element. It lasts rounds/level and because it gives you a touch attack versus being a touch attack it does not dissipate and can be used with other spells.
Vampiric Touch gives 1d6/2lvl that also gives temporary HP, which is pretty nice (only one attack).
Calcific Touch is another neat spell that deals 1d4 dex damage and slows the target. Much like Elemental Touch it isn't a standard touch spell and you can make one attack per round/level.
Some other decent touch spells to consider Touch of Fatigue, Ghoul Touch, and Touch of Idiocy.
would a monk splash help or are you going for strait sorc?
Well mages have terrible base attack, so touch AC is generally how they get around it. If you use unarmed strike or natural weapons you go against normal AC, which is more likely to miss.
Monk splashing would give IUS for punches and maybe some dodge AC, but personally I would opt for spells. Your punches don't get better til four levels in same as dodge. Without heavily investing in monk there's not much benefit.
Taking Draconic or Abyssal bloodlines, feral mutagen from alchemist, or aspect of the beast from ranger would give you some access to natural attacks, which offer some melee attacks.
There is nothing stopping you from just taking Improved Unarmed Strike by itself if you just want to add a bit of brawling with your touches against weaker targets.
If you barely or rarely want to engage in melee attacks you can also just use Stone Fist (APG tier 1 spell) or Cestus (APG weapon) would allow oyu to freely punch with your fists.
Excelent points Phage.
I find myself thinking that this might be an excelent build for an imp or quasit =)
Maybe combine with some polymorph spells? If he's human, he can use the APG favored class bonus to get additional spells (like Beast Form 1 AND Vampiric Touch at 6th level). Reach spell might be a handy feat to pick up at or after 5th level.
Phage wrote: Aberrant is likely the best touch option given reach. Corrupting touch...not so hot nor optimal for touching. Well, we have yet to try it -- but "stagger with a touch attack, no save" sounds pretty good, actually. Us this to debuff a boss in the first round, so that you and other spellcasters can pile on with save-or-bad spells.
Phage wrote: Remember that touch attacks can be delivered through unarmed strikes and natural attacks, My understanding is that a touch attack does not provoke an AoO. Is that correct? Because if so, then the only risk is that the sorc is stepping into melee. (Okay, that's a big "only"...)
If he goes the Touch Monkey route I'd expect him to invest in AC. A 4th level sorceror can get 18-20 AC without much trouble. You're still not exactly blase about walking up to the monster, but it's not certain death either.
[snip list of spells]
Ah ha, this is the sort of thing I was looking for. I had forgotten about Vampiric Touch. Great spell, that. Thanks!
Doug M.
I would take a look at the Reach spell metamagic feat in APG. It can make any touch spell a ranged touch attack instead. I would then buy a rod of reach spell (3000gp) or two. No need for melee. Otherwise weapon finesse might come in handy
As long as you have a charge touch attack you do no provoke AoO, however, you can not react to a AoO with a charged touch attack.
The benefit of unarmed strikes or natural attacks would let you respond to an AoO, but more importantly you would just be able to deal more damage.
Given the proper choices mages can melee effectively, such as Heroism (+other buffs), improved natural attack (+other feats), polymorphs, general bloodline bonuses, etc.
If you were aiming to be an upfront meleeing sorcerer it is a valid option. If you just wanted to be more voyeur about your touching than you would likely not bother with applying any physical damage to your touches.
That list I made is basically all the touch spells with the highest one being Calcific Touch tier 4, AFAIK/IIRC. That leaves your spell book open to taking normal evocation options or if you wanted to be more of a brawler you could pick up Beast Shape, Heroism, etc and dish out some respectable numbers while applying some potentially lethal damage.
Calcific Touch is by far one of the best spells in the game, extend and reach it and you can get up to 14~42 rounds of grabbing 1d4 dex, that is likely plenty of time to ruin any huge or bigger create (they become "helpless" at 0 stat). Given that spell alone you could likely shape an entire character.
Phage wrote: Monk splashing would give IUS for punches and maybe some dodge AC, but personally I would opt for spells. Your punches don't get better til four levels in same as dodge. Without heavily investing in monk there's not much benefit. This I dont understand
IUS is the most undesirable part of the monk build, imo, for a sorcerer.
I take the splash for the Flurry with a staff (hey, looky, Im Just as good as a Fighter!) the awesome saves, and the bump to AC that stacks with my Mage Armor. Add in a good dash of HP and its not so bad a loss for the early level, and helps make sure you survive into the higher levels.
dave.gillam wrote: IUS is the most undesirable part of the monk build, imo, for a sorcerer.
I take the splash for the Flurry with a staff (hey, looky, Im Just as good as a Fighter!) the awesome saves, and the bump to AC that stacks with my Mage Armor. Add in a good dash of HP and its not so bad a loss for the early level, and helps make sure you survive into the higher levels.
IUS isn't that great you're right, but relatively speaking neither is the rest of what you get out of monk. Really I would not suggest mixing a monk with a casting for multiple, marginalized reasons.
Flurry is not level-dipping friendly because it sets your BaB for the attack equal to your monk level...ya not a multiclassing skill option.
Monk does have the best saves, increasing your off saves by 2~4, but in many ways that is its main contribution.
AC bonus is nice, but you get it once for every four levels spent in the class. Sweet it stacks, but that's a pretty huge chunk of levels for a single AC, which at least Draconic bloodline can match at levels 3(1)/9(2)/15(4). Also remember that the insight bonus to AC comes from wisdom, and if you're attempting to melee on sorcerer you already need CHA, DEX, and potentially STR.
Monk has mediocre HP, it's only a d8. That's on average only 1 more HP than a sorcerer, plus if you go down the Draconic bloodline you can take Dragon Disciple and that has a whopping d12.
The faster movement at 3/6/9 is nice early game, though eventually multiple sorcerer bloodlines pick up wings so it is unimportant at higher levels. Plus at level 6 a beast shaped sorcerer can hit 90 movement speed.
For every two levels you would put in monk you're losing out on a full tier of spells, which becomes even more rough the higher the tier you're losing out on. Having access to all those higher tier spells is what you can use to overcompensate for your melee deficiencies. By level 6 I would much prefer access to Haste and Beast Shape. By level 10 you can change into a magical beast and be able to cast. By level 12 a dragon.
Assuming your goal would be to melee, the higher tier spells easily help you shapechange, increasing your natural attacks, accuracy, damage, and defense far more than monk would. Really the only key thing you're missing from not taking monk is the saves, but personally I would much prefer the spells over them since shapechanging can basically give you everything else.
If you don't want to be in melee range you can easily take some of the metamagic feats like reach or go down the aberrant line and you should be able to stay relatively far back, but still apply all your fancy touch attacks, which you would far more likely benefit from just pure sorcerer than anything else.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Well, we have yet to try it -- but "stagger with a touch attack, no save" sounds pretty good, actually. Us this to debuff a boss in the first round, so that you and other spellcasters can pile on with save-or-bad spells. Unless you houserule it differently, the Spectral Hand cannot be used to convey the Corrupting Touch (as it is a power and not a spell). Is your player aware of this ?
If you want to increase the debuffing of a bad guy's saves, I would advise your player to try the Halfling Jinx racial trait (from Halflings of Golarion). He can then take all the nice feats that make it a real smash for arcane casters.
The black raven wrote: Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Well, we have yet to try it -- but "stagger with a touch attack, no save" sounds pretty good, actually. Us this to debuff a boss in the first round, so that you and other spellcasters can pile on with save-or-bad spells. Unless you houserule it differently, the Spectral Hand cannot be used to convey the Corrupting Touch (as it is a power and not a spell). Is your player aware of this? He is also confusing stagger with shaken. If it were stagger it would be significantly better, but it isn't. And honestly the entire bloodline seems pretty meh.
Now the Undead bloodline does look significantly better and has some sweet unique bonuses that are often overlooked! Granted you are like part dead'n'stuff...
The main draw for the Infernal Bloodline has to be the bonus to Charm spell save DCs. Human Sorcerer with Infernal Bloodline, Charisma 20, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), will rock a Charm Person with a save DC of 20 at level 1. The Sorcerer 'touch' abilities I tend to see more as a 'last line of defense' for if something's gone hideously wrong and you end up standing next to a bad guy... ;)
|
