Perception seems to outshine any other skill.
My assesment could be clouded by my own GM-style, but in all the adventure paths and all the rules outside crafting, Perception also is the most used/mentioned skill.
So while all of the other skills which are only used in very special circumstances (swim, fly) or as a users choice (Profession, Craft) are usually deemed optional almost everyone grabs Perception, class skill or not, because they know that this is where they will roll the dice most often.
So shouldn't Perception be handled like Initiative with an enhancing Feat and maybe a class inherent bonus for Rogues and Rangers instead of siphoning skill points away from more interesting "true" skills?
I like your idea. I've always hated how the most combat oriented class in the game is often blind to what's happening around them.
I always thought that was kind of unsusal as well.
I don’t know, maybe they were trying to take into account with the (eventual) heavy armor affecting their seeing (full helmet)/hearing?
|
Maybe. But it doesn't account for those player's who like to run a dex based fighter now and then.
The only thing wrong with it not being a skill point is that it you wouldn't get better at it as you level. You could add a bonus of half your character level (minimum +1) or even equal to CL to emulate the perception skill.
I was more saying that in jest. If anything, the clanking of armor and less vision due to a full helmet would be covered as modifier to the DC check.
I don’t think you would even need to change it away from being a skill point. I think it would just be fair enough to make it a class skill for them. That extra +3 can make a real difference.
I think perception works as is. Fighters concentrate on fighting. Plus in the roar of battle one isn't going to notice much more outside of their threat range anyway.
If you want a perceptive fighter than put points in it, even if it's nto a class skill. If you want a particularily astute fighter use a tratit that makes percep a class skill, get the skill focus feat(percep), etc.
The classic archtype of the fighter isn't concentrated on perception. It's for killing what's in front of them. Of course if you want to change your archtype than their are options for that. Multiclassing, feats, traits, etc etc etc
It ain't broke. No need to try to fix it.
That works. However, the OP is talking about wasting skill points on Perception when there are other more flavorful skills out there. And thus, how to fix that.
Yes, I agree, Perception is a well used skill. But I don’t think it should be thrown out because of it. You could say the same thing with Spellcraft with casters and I know we use Stealth a lot (for all characters) in our campaign, as well.
And if you start throwing out skills just because they are ‘used often’ will also throw off the balance of the skill points distributed. Meaning, you have more than you probably should to spend.
|
|
So shouldn't Perception be handled like Initiative with an enhancing Feat and maybe a class inherent bonus for Rogues and Rangers instead of siphoning skill points away from more interesting "true" skills?
I like this idea. You might need to change how Stealth works, but I think it might be ideal to actually combine Initiative and Perception, somehow.
In essence you are suggesting to make it a free maxed skill without putting points in it, the skill mechanics should pretty much stay the same unless you want to change stealth as well.
If it bothers you much just give every class an extra 1 skillpoint per level so the players do not feel taxed for this skill and can even opt to make a character that is practically blind.
Perhaps instead of changing perception, make the other skills more useful, especially in combat. Making the environment an active participant in combat makes things like climb, swim, and acrobatics(all of it, not just the tumble part) more than occasionally used skills. Knowledge, craft, and many others could be used to inform tactics, shape the battle field, or soon to be battlefield, and otherwise aid the party in preparing for fights just as much as magic can, but only if the DM leads the way. My experience is that players will use the various skills as often as the DM encourages them to, no more and no less.
Specific Example, just to make a point:
If someone who has craft(weaponsmithing) wants to sunder an enemy's weapon, let them roll a craft check; if they roll high enough, the character is able to use his training in making weapons to gain a circumstance bonus because he is able to recall where the weak points of that particular weapon usually are.
I'd love to see something like this.
Are you familiar with the Iron Heroes skill trick and skill stunt system? It has several uses for every skill in combat.
I played a theif in that system and because of that system I could go for about 15 rounds of combat hitting my apponent on his flat-footed AC and never having to repeat a move.
Deffinatly worth looking into for more uses of skills in combat.
Sounds interesting; I'll have to check it out. On the original topic, while I think the mechanic for skill challenges in 4E is rather dysfunctional, or at least was when I tried it, the concept is sound. If you are looking for something out of combat, some version of that idea could go a long way to encouraging more use of the "limited circumstances" skills.
Perception is indeed an invaluable skill. So too is spellcraft and the various knowledges.
If a PC chooses to invest in it, then he is rewarded. If he doesn't, then he isn't rewarded. Isn't the whole game about the choices you make and the consequences it has for your character?
You may be the rude, crude warrior of the charismatic cleric able to talk your way out of nearly anything. You can be nearly anything you want.. including someone who can't find their way out of a paper sack compared to the wary sniper who can see a fly on an apple from 100 yards away.
While I do agree that perception is a good skill it is by no means required or mandatory. Myself, I'd prefer to keep it as another choice in the overall bag of choices for your PC to make. Some will choose to specialize in it, others will be passably good at it, and others will simply ignore it completely. Doesn't sound like a problem to me.
-S
|
Perhaps instead of changing perception, make the other skills more useful, especially in combat. Making the environment an active participant in combat makes things like climb, swim, and acrobatics(all of it, not just the tumble part) more than occasionally used skills. Knowledge, craft, and many others could be used to inform tactics, shape the battle field, or soon to be battlefield, and otherwise aid the party in preparing for fights just as much as magic can, but only if the DM leads the way. My experience is that players will use the various skills as often as the DM encourages them to, no more and no less.
You could make it a special kind of full round action, which allows a skill check + std action (and a 5 foot step if that std action doesn't result in a move)
The skill check directly pertains to the std action you are attempting, and if that std action is opposed the CR of the creature should factor into the DC. The circumstance bonus should be +1 +1/5 you beat the check by. You would also not be allowed to change your action based on the results of the check (so even if you flub it your committed)
So the example given, sundering a weapon, you make you Craft(Weaponsmith) roll against some DC (maybe for a magic weapon it is 10+CL). If you make the check you get your bonus to sunder.
Perhaps instead of changing perception, make the other skills more useful, especially in combat. Making the environment an active participant in combat makes things like climb, swim, and acrobatics(all of it, not just the tumble part) more than occasionally used skills. Knowledge, craft, and many others could be used to inform tactics, shape the battle field, or soon to be battlefield, and otherwise aid the party in preparing for fights just as much as magic can, but only if the DM leads the way. My experience is that players will use the various skills as often as the DM encourages them to, no more and no less.You could make it a special kind of full round action, which allows a skill check + std action (and a 5 foot step if that std action doesn't result in a move)
The skill check directly pertains to the std action you are attempting, and if that std action is opposed the CR of the creature should factor into the DC. The circumstance bonus should be +1 +1/5 you beat the check by. You would also not be allowed to change your action based on the results of the check (so even if you flub it your committed)
So the example given, sundering a weapon, you make you Craft(Weaponsmith) roll against some DC (maybe for a magic weapon it is 10+CL). If you make the check you get your bonus to sunder.
I hadn't thought about the specifics, but what you suggested is exactly what I was getting at.
I don't mind some skills being very useful, stuff most characters will want to invest in.
Having yet another thing be its own mechanic instead of a skill (beyond saves, attacks, combat manoeuvres, initiative, concentration and whatever I have missed) will devalue the skill system further.
Not to mention the ramifications: Class tables would become bigger as you now have to list a perception bonus for each class - unless it becomes something mostly fixed like initiative, in which case you can throw a lot of the existing rules system away and start over, since many things assume that you can get a skill bonus to Perception equal to your level or even level +3.
If anyone wants to make the effort and change Perception, go ahead. Personally, I don't think the current way needs to be changed, at least not enough to justify the effort.
Notice foes on 1-2 on a d6.
Notice foes on 1-2 on a d6.
Sorry, I just threw up a little in my mouth.
I think leaving perception as a skill is really just fine. I don't feel I need to put ranks in it just to function. Never have.
As for other skills...I use a alot of skills in combat. Be inventive and creative. Hopefuly your DM will allow you to usae them.
|
|
So shouldn't Perception be handled like Initiative...I've always thought Perception would make a good saving throw category (especially if Perception continued to use Wisdom and Will was changed to use Charisma).
Hey Hey Hey, if your adding new saving throw types, I want
Rod, Staff, WandParalyzing, Poison, Death Magic
Breath Weapon
Petrification, Polymorph
and
Spell
back...