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Mind Blank does not stop you from asking someone a question with a divination spell regardless of who you are asking. Instead, it blocks a specific list of spells and those spells that work like them.
The spells it specifically details are of course foiled. Spells that work like them are also foiled. It further describes *how* the spell foils them. These two types of spells either directly target the "Mind blanked" person or *directly* have that person in their area of effect.
You can't scry him and if you scry an area he happens to be in, then he doesn't show up.
Noticeably missing are spells that allow you to talk to someone else but that don't touch, effect, or impact the target of Mind Blank at all.. Those spells are not covered. They are not covered because they are not devices and spells that gather information about a target: they are spells (or devices, i suppose) that facilitate communication with the creature(s) outlined in the spells.
Telepathic Bond, Commune, Contact Other Plane. They are not spells that gather information about a target they are spells that allow for communication between you and someone else.
Mind Blank does not stop you from communicating with someone else about a 3rd party.
-S
Telepathic Bond, Commune, Contact Other Plane. They are not spells that gather information about a target they are spells that allow for communication between you and someone else.
Mind Blank does not stop you from communicating with someone else about a 3rd party.-S
Completely incorrect again.
Ok you are "talking about a 3rd party"
What's another way of saying that...
hm...
let me think...
Oh yeah gathering information about a 3rd party what's more you are doing it with a spell that is of the divination school of magic...
what does mind blank say about that...
That's right
It blocks all attempts from spells or devices that use divination to gather information about the individual.
all attempts means not some, with exclusions but all including anything not specifically listed.
Since there isn't specifically listed spells that are excluded they are all blocked since they are:
1. Spells
2. Divination
3. gathering information about the individual
They will work on any other subject but not the target of a mind blank spell.
This is of course beyond the fact that it simply doesn't work.All the bolding in the world isn't going to make that any more true. I even agree, but I can still see it being ruled either way. Mechanically speaking, Commune is a divination spell that gathers information. Fluff-wise, Commune is a divination spell that let you ask questions of an outsider (deity or otherwise).
Personally I'd go with mechanics too, but I wouldn't consider the fluff interpretation invalid. I think the problem with Commune is that how it works is different from what it's described as actually doing.
Telepathic bond (or message, or sending, or whatever) simply isn't a spell that gathers information. It's such a far-fetched interpretation of what those spells do, that they really needed to include at least one of them in the example of blocked spells, if they intended them to be blocked.
The flavor is not what you use to make rule decisions. Fluff is mutable. Mechanics are not. The mechanics are that you are gathering info with a divination spell. Mind Blank blocks that. There is not really a way around that.
I have always advocated that the flavor/fluff should be in italics/red lettering/etc, while the mechanics should be separated. The 3.5 spell compendium does this pretty well.
Example: How they should be separated
Smoke pours out of your hand and surrounds you before gathering itself into a ball of darkness that you throw at you enemy
Make a ranged touch attack. If the enemy is struck they gain one negative level.
I can see someone trying to argue that the smoke provides concealment from attacks of opportunity even though the only intent of this spell is to hand out negative levels.
Telepathic Bond, Commune, Contact Other Plane. They are not spells that gather information about a target they are spells that allow for communication between you and someone else.
Mind Blank does not stop you from communicating with someone else about a 3rd party.-S
Completely incorrect again.
Ok you are "talking about a 3rd party"
What's another way of saying that...
hm...
let me think...Oh yeah gathering information about a 3rd party what's more you are doing it with a spell that is of the divination school of magic...
what does mind blank say about that...
That's right
It blocks all attempts from spells or devices that use divination to gather information about the individual.
all attempts means not some, with exclusions but all including anything not specifically listed.
Since there isn't specifically listed spells that are excluded they are all blocked since they are:
1. Spells
2. Divination
3. gathering information about the individualThey will work on any other subject but not the target of a mind blank spell.
We'll just have to disagree then. You are basing your entire argument on an overly broad first sentence and completely ignoring the rest of the spell: the one that tells you how the spell works and how to apply it.
Commune, CoP, Telepathic Bond.. They aren't information gathering spells. They are spells that let you talk to someone else. Your "interpretation" is just too broad and ignores too much of the spell's language.
Even if we assume that it does block them though you've still not said how you would do it.
If you have an on-going effect and something touches a MB's target: What is blocked? Does the "asker" get blocked so no question is asked? Is the answer blocked so he thinks he's being ignored? You say its just fluff: but its actually a very real mechanic of the spell.
if A and B are discussing the weather and B suddenly says "hey there is Bob" and it happens that Bob is mind blanked: what is transmitted? does it leave out his name? the whole sentence? Does the whole Bond spell fail and collapse because they accidentally mentioned someone who is MB'd?
Would you just inform the player he can't ask that question? Based on what?
The answer is that.. there is no answer. Because it isn't covered under the spell, because.. the spell doesn't block it at all.
Mind Blank was designed to defeat spells cast at people to gather information. It was not designed to stop two people from communicating over long distances- even if the subject was directly or happened to indirectly stumble across some dude who happened to have MB up.
-S
Abraham, let us suppose Bob is Mind Blanked.
Now Mary has a telepathic bond with Jim. Mary asks a question to Jim about Bob. Does it work?
Or Bob is standing next to Jim. Mary scries on Jim, does she see Bob?
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Commune, CoP, Telepathic Bond.. They aren't information gathering spells. They are spells that let you talk to someone else. Your "interpretation" is just too broad and ignores too much of the spell's language.
I'm sorry, this is wrong. You cannot substitute fluff for rules. This is a rules forum, and if you want to change them, go to homebrew.
Is the spell under the divination school, miracle, or wish? Do you have more information about the target when the spell is done than when you started? The spell has gathered information.
The flavor is not what you use to make rule decisions. Fluff is mutable. Mechanics are not. The mechanics are that you are gathering info with a divination spell. Mind Blank blocks that. There is not really a way around that.
I have always advocated that the flavor/fluff should be in italics/red lettering/etc, while the mechanics should be separated. The 3.5 spell compendium does this pretty well.
Example: How they should be separated
Quote:
Smoke pours out of your hand and surrounds you before gathering itself into a ball of darkness that you throw at you enemy
Make a ranged touch attack. If the enemy is struck they gain one negative level.
I can see someone trying to argue that the smoke provides concealment from attacks of opportunity even though the only intent of this spell is to hand out negative levels.
Selgard, that last part is where your reasoning leads. The fluff is less important. Don't let it distract you unless you want to start rewriting spell rules wholesale. And if you do, homebrew is the place for that.
The rule here is clear. You don't have to like it. I don't like every rule (some may have read my vital strike rant) but I respect them for what they are and give both RAW and RAI here, as best I can. Commune getting around mind blank is neither.
Commune, CoP, Telepathic Bond.. They aren't information gathering spells. They are spells that let you talk to someone else. Your "interpretation" is just too broad and ignores too much of the spell's language.I'm sorry, this is wrong. You cannot substitute fluff for rules. This is a rules forum, and if you want to change them, go to homebrew.
Is the spell under the divination school, miracle, or wish? Do you have more information about the target when the spell is done than when you started? The spell has gathered information.
The flavor is not what you use to make rule decisions. Fluff is mutable. Mechanics are not. The mechanics are that you are gathering info with a divination spell. Mind Blank blocks that. There is not really a way around that.
I have always advocated that the flavor/fluff should be in italics/red lettering/etc, while the mechanics should be separated. The 3.5 spell compendium does this pretty well.
Example: How they should be separated
Quote:
Smoke pours out of your hand and surrounds you before gathering itself into a ball of darkness that you throw at you enemy
Make a ranged touch attack. If the enemy is struck they gain one negative level.
I can see someone trying to argue that the smoke provides concealment from attacks of opportunity even though the only intent of this spell is to hand out negative levels.
Selgard, that last part is where your reasoning leads. The fluff is less important. Don't let it distract you unless you want to start rewriting spell rules wholesale. And if you do, homebrew is the place for that.
The rule here is clear. You don't have to like it. I don't like every rule (some may have read my vital strike rant) but I respect them for what they are and give both RAW and RAI here, as best I can. Commune getting around mind blank is neither.
How does one distinguish fluff from rules?
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Abraham, let us suppose Bob is Mind Blanked.
Now Mary has a telepathic bond with Jim. Mary asks a question to Jim about Bob. Does it work?
Or Bob is standing next to Jim. Mary scries on Jim, does she see Bob?
For the telepathic bond, the answer to the question over the bond is unintelligible.
Mind Blank specifically covers your second question:
In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
Um, that FOresight > Mind Blank argument doesn't fly.
How exactly is Foresight going to tell Joe the Wizard that Bob the Mind Blanked is about to backstab him if it can't gather any information on Bob and relay it to Joe? No divination effect that would involve Bob is going to happen...and Foresight is not more powerful then Wish. It certainly gets trumped by Mind Blank.
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As for the location effect, using False Negatives is definitely the best test. There's plenty of ways to determine if someone is protected from being scried on, although a lot of spells might get snookered by Non-Detection as well.
However, be prepared for False Negatives. Learning that someone has a Mind Blank up is gathering information about them, and it's perfectly within the permitted power of Mind Blank to conceal the fact that it exists, thus not revealing information about the defenses of the wearer. Mind Blank is a very powerful spell, and foiling False Positive tactics is certainly within the power of the spell.
===Aelryinth
For the telepathic bond, the answer to the question over the bond is unintelligible.
Why?
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How does one distinguish fluff from rules?
At the end of the day, you have cast a spell, the effect of which is to have 20 questions answered. The questions themselves are not guaranteed to be answered. You are gathering information insofar as you now might have information you would not otherwise have, and you have it through the mechanism of the spell. That is a spell mechanically gathering information. It does not matter if it comes from the mouth of a god, her servents, , your friend Jim, or nowhere, the spell allowed you to access information about the target.
Mind Blank stops this access. You can make up plenty of reasons why, and there are ways to get information without using divination spells. Maybe divination uses some sort of magical information network, and Mind Blank blocks either question or answer from getting where they usually go.
Sending doesn't use this network, so it can work just fine.
Spells are vague, but their effects are not. Concentrate on those. If you have more info about Bob after the spell, you've gathered info. It's simple.
Why?You're gathering information with a divination spell. The answer to your question is information about Bob. Information about Bob cannot be gathered via divination. Yes Mary knows the info, but Jim does not, and he's using the spell to get it.
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible).
The subject being protected from div does not mean that spells between other people are affected.
How does one distinguish fluff from rules?At the end of the day, you have cast a spell, the effect of which is to have 20 questions answered. The questions themselves are not guaranteed to be answered. You are gathering information insofar as you now might have information you would not otherwise have, and you have it through the mechanism of the spell. That is a spell mechanically gathering information. It does not matter if it comes from the mouth of a god, her servents, , your friend Jim, or nowhere, the spell allowed you to access information about the target.
Mind Blank stops this access. You can make up plenty of reasons why, and there are ways to get information without using divination spells. Maybe divination uses some sort of magical information network, and Mind Blank blocks either question or answer from getting where they usually go.
Sending doesn't use this network, so it can work just fine.
Spells are vague, but their effects are not. Concentrate on those. If you have more info about Bob after the spell, you've gathered info. It's simple.
Please state unambiguous criteria for which I can apply to all spells that sorts the fluff from the effects.
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The subject being protected from div does not mean that spells between other people are affected.
I cannot see any other reading. Divination? Check. Information? Check.
This is the RAW.Again, I, personally would houserule that telepathic bond be evocation, like sending. That's not the RAW, though.
Abraham, let us suppose Bob is Mind Blanked.
Now Mary has a telepathic bond with Jim. Mary asks a question to Jim about Bob. Does it work?
Or Bob is standing next to Jim. Mary scries on Jim, does she see Bob?
The comment that jim wants to give would not be delivered -- that is the mechanics. The fluff for this could be anything from the reply getting lost, an interplanar magical censor beep, nothing coming through or whatever else, but no information about Bob would be conveyed through the spell.
The spell would not be dispel, canceled or otherwise harmed, simply no information about Bob could be exchanged through it -- in fact I doubt the question would even go through since it gives information about Bob to Jim (specifically Bob's name).
Situation 2 is specifically covered in the Mind Blank spell description -- she would not see Bob at all.
Commune, CoP, Telepathic Bond.. They aren't information gathering spells. They are spells that let you talk to someone else. Your "interpretation" is just too broad and ignores too much of the spell's language.I'm sorry, this is wrong. You cannot substitute fluff for rules. This is a rules forum, and if you want to change them, go to homebrew.
Is the spell under the divination school, miracle, or wish? Do you have more information about the target when the spell is done than when you started? The spell has gathered information.
The flavor is not what you use to make rule decisions. Fluff is mutable. Mechanics are not. The mechanics are that you are gathering info with a divination spell. Mind Blank blocks that. There is not really a way around that.
I have always advocated that the flavor/fluff should be in italics/red lettering/etc, while the mechanics should be separated. The 3.5 spell compendium does this pretty well.
Example: How they should be separated
Quote:
Smoke pours out of your hand and surrounds you before gathering itself into a ball of darkness that you throw at you enemy
Make a ranged touch attack. If the enemy is struck they gain one negative level.
I can see someone trying to argue that the smoke provides concealment from attacks of opportunity even though the only intent of this spell is to hand out negative levels.
Selgard, that last part is where your reasoning leads. The fluff is less important. Don't let it distract you unless you want to start rewriting spell rules wholesale. And if you do, homebrew is the place for that.
The rule here is clear. You don't have to like it. I don't like every rule (some may have read my vital strike rant) but I respect them for what they are and give both RAW and RAI here, as best I can. Commune getting around mind blank is neither.
Ok.
So for your interpretation to be true we need to know *how* it works mechanically. Not how it works fluff wise (how magic interacts or whatever) but how to actually treat it in an ingame scenario.For Scry the rules tell us. The person doesn't show up. If you scry a field and the guy is in it with flares waving his hands up and down and around.. you see an empty field. The spell dictates exactly how it works.
So how does it interact with the other spells?
I cast Commune. it lasts 1 round/level. I can ask one question per level.
So i ask a question of my deity about someone who is mind blanked.
Do i get "Unclear"
Do i get yes? No?
Does the spell unravel and fall apart?
Do I get no response? Does it count against my questions? (only get CL/questions to begin with).
Remember: if I "lag" then I lose the spell. Does asking a question about a mindblanked person count as a "lag"?
Contact Other Plane:
Exactly same issues except you get half as many questions as with Commune and you have to concentrate to maintain the spell.
The answers you give will all be houserules. You can answer the question any way you want to and it will be a houserule. Why? Because RAW does not address Mindblank with these spells. It addresses MB with information gathering spells directed at the target who has MB cast upon them. Asking a 3rd party about Bob is not a divination directed at him- its a divination directed at the 3rd party.
"It fails" is not an answer to the question. *what happens* when I have Commune cast and I ask a question about an MB'd individual? It tells me what happens when I cast Scry on him or try to use Scry on an area he is in. Show me where it tells me what happens to my Commune.
It isn't there. The broad statement at the beginning of the spell is further refined and narrowed by the subsequent language of the spell. Commune, CoP, Telepathic Bond.. They aren't covered. That is why they didn't go into detail on what happens if someone asks a Commune spell about a Mind Blanked individual.
-S
I'm also not so certain it would prevent Contact Other Plane from working any better than it would prevent your ability to ask Bob's wife questions about Bob.
You aren't magically getting info from nowhere. You are magically communicating with an outsider and asking questions of them.
You could contact outsider X, but how do they know about bob? Have they heard of him? Were they present when he did something? If yes they can share that info, but if they're using any magics to find out information about bob it doesn't work. It's not like bob is being watched like hes on the outsider version of animal planet.
The answer is not houserules at all -- its obvious if you read the spells:
1. Mind blank specifically states it stops all spells that are divination from gathering information about the target.
2. Commune and Contact other plane are both spells that are divination.
3. If you ask a question about someone that is mind blanked the answer is up to the GM so long as it doesn't give any information about the individual under the mind blank.
Now the answer to commune could be "I can't answer your question" or "I am unable to provide you an answer" or "Ask a question and I shall answer as best as I may" but any answer that provides information on the target -- including why an answer could not be given cannot be given as it would provide information about the target of the mind blank spell by the use of a divination spell -- which cannot happen.
Contact other plane might not even acknowledge the question (since acknowledging the question provides the creature contacted with the information about the target that someone is asking questions about him), or might send back the magical equivalent of a "nul" string.
In any event no divination spell will provide any answer about someone protected by mind blank.
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Please state unambiguous criteria for which I can apply to all spells that sorts the fluff from the effects.
Honestly, there isn't any. You have to look at the text of the spells with how it interacts with others. Divination is worse, as there's more guesswork involved anytime it's used.
As a GM, the answers revealed by commune are entirely up to you. Even without Mind Blank Unclear is possible. If your player has Mind Blank up, you can, of course, automatically have all your NPCs know where a character is.
Neither of these situations are really favorable. If a player wants to indefinitely burn an 8th level slot, good for them, the payoff is pretty awesome. If you want to impact either your treasure tables, or your NPC's power by devoting an item or slot to this, then that's pretty big, too. Even bigger since NPC item cost can have an impact on power.
What we're talking about here is a 5th level spell ignoring the text of an 8th because a conversation for some reason isn't information gathering. It is. In fact, with commune you can do nothing but gather information.
I will retract my statement of "no other reading" insofar as telepathic bond is concerned. You could read mind blank as blocking spells whose purpose is to gather information. TB's purpose is communication, there need be nothing learned, or attempted to be learned. Commune and CoP, though, they exist only to gather information. In fact, if you stop asking questions to mull something over, commune ends. A fireside chat it is not.
So RAW: Commune and CoP fail to give info on Bob. Maybe Jim can ask Mary about Bob over a telepathic bond. They can definitely do so over sending. Anyone dead can be asked about Bob via speak with dead. No one can scry Bob, or see him if they scry his current location.
I still cannot see the rules allowing Commune to overcome Mind Blank. Seems to me both the RAW and RAI were deliberately written to stop a diviner from using spells to gain info.
Also we seem to assume these spells work better than they do, even absent mind blank. You're forcing an (often reluctant) otherworldly entity to answer questions. For one of the spells the entity might even lie. That they are stopped is not all that worrisome. Neither compare to Wish or Miracle for power.
I understand the reaction against this, I do. Mind Blank is powerful, and the thread in which it was employed was doing something near game breaking that involved this spell. Don't let your gut reaction to those activities overrule a logical reading of the spell.
Information Gathering does not mean information is called from nowhere, it means what it says, the spell gathers information - you cast a spell and the spell gives you information. You could word it that the spell's purpose must be solely that, that reading is legit, and keeps telepathic bond in, but I cannot see any reading that has CoP or Commune doing anything but gather information via spell. Yes, the means of gathering is a limited conversation, but the conversations in question can only consist of yes/no questions. This is information gathering.
The same type detailed by the (legit with mind blank) action of the same name via diplomacy. Gathering information can involve a conversation, so even if nothing in the spell is fluff. Even if you read every aspect of the description as taking place RAW, it's still barred.
I'm still lost as to where this specific language is supposed to be. It lists example spells ("such as..." - examples, not an exhaustive list!) and then goes into slightly more detail related to scrying, and states that Wish and Miracle are blocked as well if used to gain information.
Where is this specific language? All I see is blanket immunity. In fact, I see the description going out of its way to remove the target from divination spells not directly targetting him, and even blocking Wish.
This is exactly what RAW is -- if there was any means to get information about the subject with a divination spell it would be specifically called out in either mind blank's or the other spell's text.
No spell that is divination states it can go through mind blank. Mind blank states that all divination spells that are used to gather information about the target of mind blank provide no information at all (including the information about what stopped the information transfer).
Please remember that telepathy in pathfinder is basically a telephone system. The place telepathy is defined is in the bestiary under abilities. The spell telepathic bond provides nothing else to go by on what the telepathy involved is other than to say it is limited to only working between those affected by the spell. As such it is telepathy (since that is what it is called) and a search for what that word means returns only the bestiary's information meaning that is the explanation and meaning of telepathy in pathfinder.
This is of course beyond the fact that it simply doesn't work.All the bolding in the world isn't going to make that any more true. I even agree, but I can still see it being ruled either way. Mechanically speaking, Commune is a divination spell that gathers information. Fluff-wise, Commune is a divination spell that let you ask questions of an outsider (deity or otherwise).
Personally I'd go with mechanics too, but I wouldn't consider the fluff interpretation invalid. I think the problem with Commune is that how it works is different from what it's described as actually doing.
Telepathic bond (or message, or sending, or whatever) simply isn't a spell that gathers information. It's such a far-fetched interpretation of what those spells do, that they really needed to include at least one of them in the example of blocked spells, if they intended them to be blocked.
This is about how I feel on the matter as well.
Mind Blank does not defeat Moment of Prescience.
It doesn't tell me anything about Bob, but it does tell me everything about me. If Bob is about to backstab me, it warns me that I'm about to be backstabbed. I don't know that it's Bob. I don't know anything about Bob. The spell has only warned me about MY state and what is about to happen to ME.
Spalding, would you please not bold everything so much. It's growing ever so slightly annoying on the eyes.
Spalding, would you please not bold everything so much. It's growing ever so slightly annoying on the eyes.
Sure, I was adding for emphasis on parts that I felt were being purposefully overlooked.
For the record I agree that Moment of Prescience should provide you your bonus -- it's you avoiding danger not telling you who/what/how that danger is coming -- it's more like a guidance system shouting "MOVE LEFT MOVE LEFT NOW!" without telling you why you should do so.
Spalding, would you please not bold everything so much. It's growing ever so slightly annoying on the eyes.Sure, I was adding for emphasis on parts that I felt were being purposefully overlooked.
For the record I agree that Moment of Prescience should provide you your bonus -- it's you avoiding danger not telling you who/what/how that danger is coming -- it's more like a guidance system shouting "MOVE LEFT MOVE LEFT NOW!" without telling you why you should do so.
Yep, regular old spidey sense.
Also, italics are your friend.
Mind Blank does not defeat Moment of Prescience.
It doesn't tell me anything about Bob, but it does tell me everything about me. If Bob is about to backstab me, it warns me that I'm about to be backstabbed. I don't know that it's Bob. I don't know anything about Bob. The spell has only warned me about MY state and what is about to happen to ME.
Spalding, would you please not bold everything so much. It's growing ever so slightly annoying on the eyes.
If it can't sense Bob, it can't tell you that you are going to be backstabbed by him. Being backstabbed is dependent on him, not you...and it can't tell you anything about him. You're basically trying to tell me that your divination spell can tell you what Bob is going to do, and exactly when he's going to do it, and basically wherefrom, even thought the spell specifically prevents this? You don't have to know it's Bob doing it...if it IS Bob, you're mucked. You can't possibly learn any of that about him.
Trumps MoP just fine.
===Aelryinth
Thank you to everyone who came and gave their earnest, honest and polite replies. No flames and such were seen and I appreciate it.
I do not think we will get "an answer".. Both sides clearly are going to disagree. I'm going to FAQ button it and move on.
-S
Mind Blank does not defeat Moment of Prescience.
It doesn't tell me anything about Bob, but it does tell me everything about me. If Bob is about to backstab me, it warns me that I'm about to be backstabbed. I don't know that it's Bob. I don't know anything about Bob. The spell has only warned me about MY state and what is about to happen to ME.
Spalding, would you please not bold everything so much. It's growing ever so slightly annoying on the eyes.
If it can't sense Bob, it can't tell you that you are going to be backstabbed by him. Being backstabbed is dependent on him, not you...and it can't tell you anything about him. You're basically trying to tell me that your divination spell can tell you what Bob is going to do, and exactly when he's going to do it, and basically wherefrom, even thought the spell specifically prevents this? You don't have to know it's Bob doing it...if it IS Bob, you're mucked. You can't possibly learn any of that about him.
Trumps MoP just fine.
===Aelryinth
Obviously, I disagree. I'm not gathering any information about Bob whatsoever. Merely protecting my own hide with a defensive spell.
Also, you keep referring to the spell like it's some creature looking over my shoulder and whispering warnings in my ear. It's not. It doesn't "sense" anything at all. It just works.
A good parallel would be Spiderman's spider sense.
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Thank you to everyone who came and gave their earnest, honest and polite replies. No flames and such were seen and I appreciate it.
I do not think we will get "an answer".. Both sides clearly are going to disagree. I'm going to FAQ button it and move on.
-S
Aye, sir. It would seem we are at an impasse. FAQing seems like an excellent idea
Mind Blank does not defeat Moment of Prescience.
It doesn't tell me anything about Bob, but it does tell me everything about me. If Bob is about to backstab me, it warns me that I'm about to be backstabbed. I don't know that it's Bob. I don't know anything about Bob. The spell has only warned me about MY state and what is about to happen to ME.
Spalding, would you please not bold everything so much. It's growing ever so slightly annoying on the eyes.
If it can't sense Bob, it can't tell you that you are going to be backstabbed by him. Being backstabbed is dependent on him, not you...and it can't tell you anything about him. You're basically trying to tell me that your divination spell can tell you what Bob is going to do, and exactly when he's going to do it, and basically wherefrom, even thought the spell specifically prevents this? You don't have to know it's Bob doing it...if it IS Bob, you're mucked. You can't possibly learn any of that about him.
Trumps MoP just fine.
===Aelryinth
Obviously, I disagree. I'm not gathering any information about Bob whatsoever. Merely protecting my own hide with a defensive spell.
Also, you keep referring to the spell like it's some creature looking over my shoulder and whispering warnings in my ear. It's not. It doesn't "sense" anything at all. It just works.
A good parallel would be Spiderman's spider sense.
If the spell lets you know that danger is coming, and BoB just happens to be the source then it is getting the info about what Bob's actions are. Just because it does not tell you exactly what Bob is up to does not mean no information is being gathered by the spell.
If the spell could not gain the info then it could not pass it to you. <--I think that is a reasonable statement.The issue now is that MoP is a divination spell, and mind blank says no divination spells are allowed to gather info on Bob. That means Bob can get the jump on you unless you have other means of detecting him.
If the spell lets you know that danger is coming, and BoB just happens to be the source then it is getting the info about what Bob's actions are. Just because it does not tell you exactly what Bob is up to does not mean no information is being gathered by the spell.
If the spell could not gain the info then it could not pass it to you. <--I think that is a reasonable statement.The issue now is that MoP is a divination spell, and mind blank says no divination spells are allowed to gather info on Bob. That means Bob can get the jump on you unless you have other means of detecting him.
Wow. Am I really alone in this?
The difference between me and you guys is that you see Moment of Prescience as an information gathering spell, whereas I don't. I see it strictly as a defensive spell. It imparts no special information to me about Bob. It merely lets me avoid danger.
If the spell lets you know that danger is coming, and BoB just happens to be the source then it is getting the info about what Bob's actions are. Just because it does not tell you exactly what Bob is up to does not mean no information is being gathered by the spell.
If the spell could not gain the info then it could not pass it to you. <--I think that is a reasonable statement.The issue now is that MoP is a divination spell, and mind blank says no divination spells are allowed to gather info on Bob. That means Bob can get the jump on you unless you have other means of detecting him.
Wow. Am I really alone in this?
The difference between me and you guys is that you see Moment of Prescience as an information gathering spell, whereas I don't. I see it strictly as a defensive spell. It imparts no special information to me about Bob. It merely lets me avoid danger.
Yes you are alone. :)
You can not know to take a precaution unless you receive information to do so. <-----I think this is reasonable
You get the info from the spell<-----I think this is reasonable
The spell at the very least lets you know someone is about to attack you. That someone happens to be Bob. The spell would have to be able to predict Bob's actions. If it can't then it can't warn you about what Bob is about to do. <---I think this is reasonable
How can it predict Bob's actions if there is no way to get any information on Bob through a divination spell?
This is of course beyond the fact that it simply doesn't work.All the bolding in the world isn't going to make that any more true. I even agree, but I can still see it being ruled either way. Mechanically speaking, Commune is a divination spell that gathers information. Fluff-wise, Commune is a divination spell that let you ask questions of an outsider (deity or otherwise).
Personally I'd go with mechanics too, but I wouldn't consider the fluff interpretation invalid. I think the problem with Commune is that how it works is different from what it's described as actually doing.
Telepathic bond (or message, or sending, or whatever) simply isn't a spell that gathers information. It's such a far-fetched interpretation of what those spells do, that they really needed to include at least one of them in the example of blocked spells, if they intended them to be blocked.
Honestly, fluff-wise you can't even really argue the point. As has already been agreed upon, nothing prevents you from doing good old fashioned face-to-face detective work. What the Pro-commune camp keeps forgetting, however, is that you are not face to face with this being answering your questions. They are answering questions through a divination spell. Mind Blank, as ridiculous as you might think it is, is an 8th level spell that distorts the conduit you are using to get this information whenever the subject concerns the person protected by Mind Blank. Commune, fluff wise or rules wise, simply does not work.
Sending, on the other hand, is an Evocation spell, so Mind Blank doesn't work on that spell at all.
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Spalding, would you please not bold everything so much. It's growing ever so slightly annoying on the eyes.
Sure, I was adding for emphasis on parts that I felt were being purposefully overlooked.
For the record I agree that Moment of Prescience should provide you your bonus -- it's you avoiding danger not telling you who/what/how that danger is coming -- it's more like a guidance system shouting "MOVE LEFT MOVE LEFT NOW!" without telling you why you should do so.Yep, regular old spidey sense.
Also, italics are your friend.
Mind blank foil See invisibility so, differently to previous versions, it foil passive information gathering.
I am in the "it foil Moment of prescience" field.
To play the devil's advocate:
Aren't you all using the fluff text of the spell to say that MB works against it?
When another creature is the subject of the spell, you receive warnings about that creature. You must communicate what you learn to the other creature for the warning to be useful, and the creature can be caught unprepared in the absence of such a warning. Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.
The "crunch" would be: never surprised or flat footed, +2 insight bonus to AC and reflex saves, and the ability to warn someone else?
All the yap about "6th sense" and general idea about how to do whatever" is just.. fluff. It has no mechanical benefit at all: its just adding words to the spell.
-S
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To play the devil's advocate:
Aren't you all using the fluff text of the spell to say that MB works against it?
The "crunch" would be: never surprised or flat footed, +2 insight bonus to AC and reflex saves, and the ability to warn someone else?
All the yap about "6th sense" and general idea about how to do whatever" is just.. fluff. It has no mechanical benefit at all: its just adding words to the spell.
I agree. I'd allow it to work.
if the attack comes from something the spell can't detect, none of the bonuses apply.
Mind Blank makes them immune to detection. Kinda no bonuses against them from MoP. If it exceeded the power of a Wish, you might have a case.
And there are ways to annull and avoid SPider-Sense. Iron Man can do it...Venom can do it...not being able to sense their actions puts Spidey at a HUGE disadvantage vs his normal mode of operation. Please keep using the argument...it proves our point!
==Aelryinth
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if the attack comes from something the spell can't detect, none of the bonuses apply.
Mind Blank makes them immune to detection. Kinda no bonuses against them from MoP. If it exceeded the power of a Wish, you might have a case.
And there are ways to annull and avoid SPider-Sense. Iron Man can do it...Venom can do it...not being able to sense their actions puts Spidey at a HUGE disadvantage vs his normal mode of operation. Please keep using the argument...it proves our point!
==Aelryinth
Except the only thing it can't detect is spells that gather information. Again, the breakdown in line drawing of when a spell does and does not gather information. I am of the feeling that no information is gathered. FAQ this. Just like the commune question I'm not sure further discussion is going to change our minds on this.
Wow. Am I really alone in this?
The difference between me and you guys is that you see Moment of Prescience as an information gathering spell, whereas I don't. I see it strictly as a defensive spell. It imparts no special information to me about Bob. It merely lets me avoid danger.
You are not. MoP either grants you an insight bonus to an attack roll, combat maneuver check, opposed ability or skill check, saving through, or AC bonus vs 1 attack.
Foresight is another divination spell with specific bonuses. Foresight would also work against a Mind Blanked opponent. The bonuses you get are: "You are never surprised or flat-footed ... and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and on Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC."
However, I think that if you cast foresight on a teammate who happened to have Mind Blank, you would not receive the info and could not provide them warning.
If the spell lets you know that danger is coming, and BoB just happens to be the source then it is getting the info about what Bob's actions are. Just because it does not tell you exactly what Bob is up to does not mean no information is being gathered by the spell.
If the spell could not gain the info then it could not pass it to you. <--I think that is a reasonable statement.The issue now is that MoP is a divination spell, and mind blank says no divination spells are allowed to gather info on Bob. That means Bob can get the jump on you unless you have other means of detecting him.
Wow. Am I really alone in this?
The difference between me and you guys is that you see Moment of Prescience as an information gathering spell, whereas I don't. I see it strictly as a defensive spell. It imparts no special information to me about Bob. It merely lets me avoid danger.
Yes you are alone. :)
You can not know to take a precaution unless you receive information to do so. <-----I think this is reasonable
You get the info from the spell<-----I think this is reasonable
The spell at the very least lets you know someone is about to attack you. That someone happens to be Bob. The spell would have to be able to predict Bob's actions. If it can't then it can't warn you about what Bob is about to do. <---I think this is reasonableHow can it predict Bob's actions if there is no way to get any information on Bob through a divination spell?
bump
I think that most people are of the opinion would work against either iteration of your spider-sense.
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible). This spell also grants a +8 resistance bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting spells and effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about the target. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
being informed as to what a Mind Blanked creature is going to do, i.e. attacking you, suprising you, or what not, definitely would involve gathering information on that creature, and then passing it on to you. The Spell CANNOT SEE a Mind Blanked creature (the creature simply isn't detected.). Not being able to detect a creature in ANY WAY would make it kind of hard to prevent you from being suprised by it...
All devices and spells is very, very broad. Thinking that me being about to backstab you is not either 'detecting' me or 'gathering information' on my actions and intents (INTENTS, mind you...I haven't even done it yet, I simply PLAN to!!), and that somehow that gets around Mind Blank...nah, don't see it at all.
If this wasn't a Divination spell, you'd have a point. The effect would describe it as heightened reflexes or some such. But it's a Divination spell, not hyper-alertness and lightning reflexes. It's not going to protect you from something it can't sense.
==Aelryinth
To play the devil's advocate:
Aren't you all using the fluff text of the spell to say that MB works against it?
** spoiler omitted **
The "crunch" would be: never surprised or flat footed, +2 insight bonus to AC and reflex saves, and the ability to warn someone else?
All the yap about "6th sense" and general idea about how to do whatever" is just.. fluff. It has no mechanical benefit at all: its just adding words to the spell.
-S
Except it doesn't tell you anything about the person under mind blank -- mechanically it simply gives you bonuses and immunity to surprise.
Nothing about immunity to surprise actually tells you anything about what was going to surprise you.
Much like a divination specialist getting to go first on a surprise round -- he knows something is going to happen, and he had best do something himself, but he doesn't know what the something is, where it is coming from, who is doing it, how they are doing it or anything else -- basically put he simply gets a chance to take an action with no knowledge of what is causing him to decide on taking that action, or what that action should be.
EDIT: I'm discussing Foresight here.
That divination is making you immune to surprise.
Bob the Mind Blanked is immune to being divined. Bob can surprise you.
Where's the problem? If it was a Transmutation spell, I'd agree with you.
==Aelryinth
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That divination is making you immune to surprise.
Bob the Mind Blanked is immune to being divined. Bob can surprise you.
Where's the problem? If it was a Transmutation spell, I'd agree with you.
==Aelryinth
Except it doesn't say Bob is immune to divination spells. It says he's immune to divination spells that gather information.
This is more fluff. The mechanics are clear. You have no information as a player than you had before the casting, just mechanical bonuses. Anyone can explain gathering info or explain it away with fluff. You want the RAW, you look at the mechanics, and the mechanics are bonuses, not information.
Sorry, but it isn't complete immunity to the school, or the words "gather information" would not be necessary. That they are there is telling.
Wait, wait,wait.
You're saying me not being able to surprise you because you have a divination up that warns you that I'm about to surprise you is not the spell gathering information about me? If I suddenly choose not to surprise you, is it reacting to you or to me?
Explain to me how the DIVINATION school spell did that, again? It's reading the future and feeding you information. The fact you're benefiting from that with instant bonuses is a feature of the information being gathered.
Anything that involves choice, bonuses, or interaction with another player immune to divination is not going to be protected against by that spell. You're basically trying to claim a hole in 'all spells' by redefining what an entire school of magic does. It doesn't work that way. The only Div spell I can think of that doesn't gather information would be Telepathic Bond, and that's because it's a communication spell, it doesn't actually help read minds, or anticipate the actions of other people!
===Aelryinth
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Wait, wait,wait.
You're saying me not being able to surprise you because you have a divination up that warns you that I'm about to surprise you is not the spell gathering information about me? If I suddenly choose not to surprise you, is it reacting to you or to me?
Explain to me how the DIVINATION school spell did that, again? It's reading the future and feeding you information. The fact you're benefiting from that with instant bonuses is a feature of the information being gathered.
Anything that involves choice, bonuses, or interaction with another player immune to divination is not going to be protected against by that spell. You're basically trying to claim a hole in 'all spells' by redefining what an entire school of magic does. It doesn't work that way. The only Div spell I can think of that doesn't gather information would be Telepathic Bond, and that's because it's a communication spell, it doesn't actually help read minds, or anticipate the actions of other people!
===Aelryinth
Yes, that's what I am saying. The spell provides no information, merely direction, and not really that. Tell me, in the text of the spell, the information the player learn. At bonus is not information. As you showed with mind blank, divination qua divination need not be information gathering. But we differ on precedence of mechanics vs fluff. I'm not sure one of us can change the mind of the other's camp.