as i'm sure you all know, metagaming is something we all do. we may not intend to, we may actively try not to, but simply by knowing something as a player we change how we play our characters.
allot of roles should be made by the DM on the players behalf. however this is something not usualy done and the players role for themselves but then they know how well they have done instantly.
there are those who use this knowledge to their advantage, there are those who over compensate and do stupid things to try and prove they are not metagaming.
how do we avoid this?
i have gotten around this as a DM by having my players roll on skills they have used only when it is tested against. for example if they put on desgiuses then they don't roll until someone is looking strait at them.
another usual fall for this is illusions. best to wait until they are actually interacting with the illusion or they have a reason to disbelive it before any saves get rolled.
in a recent game i hit my party with a modify memory spell however unknown to the party the previous session they had actualy been playing through the modified memory and i only told the people who saved against its effects. this stops any metagame issues from arising.
i hope this is of some help, Rhidian
as i'm sure you all know, metagaming is something we all do. we may not intend to, we may actively try not to, but simply by knowing something as a player we change how we play our characters.
I'd be careful throwing out collective pronouns on these boards. There are people here who don't like to be lumped in with anybody, particularly somebody who is making a broad sweeping, albeit craftily subtle, criticism of our inability to separate the rules from the game.
allot of roles should be made by the DM on the players behalf. however this is something not usualy done and the players role for themselves but then they know how well they have done instantly.
I'll assume that that was a Freudian slip and you actually meant "rolls." In which case I'd ask for some clarification of what you mean by that? Are you saying character's rolling dice to determine the outcome of situations should be rare? There are a lot of players who enjoy the game because they enjoy rolling dice and seeing the success or failure of their attempts displayed as a random number.
there are those who use this knowledge to their advantage, there are those who over compensate and do stupid things to try and prove they are not metagaming.
Again, I'd ask for more clarification. Are you saying characters who metagame are superior to others through cheating? If so can you provide an example? On the contrary, you've said some players try to prove they aren't metagaming so hard that they actually do something stupid. Does that mean they make their character do something they wouldn't really do in a given situation? Further explanation if you please.
how do we avoid this?
That's a question so ambiguous I can't even begin to think how to answer it.
i have gotten around this as a DM by having my players roll on skills they have used only when it is tested against. for example if they put on desgiuses then they don't roll until someone is looking strait at them.
I'm not sure you're doing anything outside of the ordinary here, except maybe having a PC roll their disguise check.
Disguise (Cha)
Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others’ Perception check results. If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Perception checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Perception checks.
You get only one Disguise check per use of the skill, even if several people are making Perception checks against it. The Disguise check is made secretly, so that you can’t be sure how good the result is.
By my understanding Disguise checks are always made in secret, and they are made when you create the disguise. Which sets the DC for people to perceive that it is a disguise. That also, to me, means the GM is making the check. At least that's how I run it. I'd be interested to hear how others do.
another usual fall for this is illusions. best to wait until they are actually interacting with the illusion or they have a reason to disbelive it before any saves get rolled.
That's a whole different can of worms. There have been many threads on these boards that deal with various illusions and how the save works. Do a search and you'll see what I mean.
in a recent game i hit my party with a modify memory spell however unknown to the party the previous session they had actualy been playing through the modified memory and i only told the people who saved against its effects. this stops any metagame issues from arising.
I'm not even sure what you're saying here. Are you saying you had some invisible entity cast a Modify Memory spell on all your PCs rolled the saves for them and they all failed. Or that you (as god of the game) hit them with a deified version of Modify Memory, never allowed saves because it was a deified version, and didn't tell them about it until the next session? The spell version of Modify Memory can affect at most 5 minutes. It would be hard to run an entire session under a modified memory. Unless you're saying the modified memory is what sparked their actions? That sounds to me like a season of Dallas where one of the main characters woke up at the end of an entire season and realized the entire season was a dream.
Also, per the bold, you only told people who made a save. Did you have them roll the save, if so when, and did you pull them aside and tell them, but not the other PCs? What was to stop the PCs that saved from having a frank discussion with their party members and telling them they were all acting under false pretenses? Again, I think some clarification is in order.
Subsequently, per the italics, are you saying that telling the PCs information that doesn't in actuality pertain to what their characters should or should not be doing prevents metagaming? I mean, do you think you've come up with a real solution to the "problem" of metagaming? I'd offer that's not even remotely true. Even if PCs are operating under false pretenses, it won't stop them from, say, this.
i hope this is of some help, Rhidian
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My challenge is to not overcompensate when trying to not metagame. I frequently intend to do something, but remembering that the monster is vulnerable to that something, I may decide not to do it.
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Mendedwall12,
I believe that what Rhidian was getting at was dice being rolled by players in ALL situations (such as non-active perception checks) instead of the DM rolling for them. Also this leads to the more pertinent matter of Meta-gaming. I think he is giving suggestions to DM's on how to lower the potential for players Meta-gaming by narrowing the rules of open table dice rolling while still allowing the players to roll even in situations that they normally would not.
More importantly I think that the discussion on Meta-gaming should be more directed at the player. There may be times in which a player will know the stats of an enemy and attempt to act based on "their" knowledge as a player and not the knowledge of the "character". It is very important that a player always keep in mind the knowledge of the "character" being played as well as that "characters" common response to the given circumstances. For example:
Bob plays a Sorcerer named John. Bob has also been a DM several times and knows the basic stats and abilities of a Young Adult Green Dragon because it is his favorite enemy to pit his players against. Bob knows that since he is not DMing that it is likely that his friend who is DMing will pit him against a YA Green Dragon in game. With his players knowledge he could easily prepare each game to meet a YA Green Dragon and due to his intimate out of game knowledge help the party take advantage of the foe. However, his CHARACTER John the sorcerer knows very little about Green Dragons because he was raised in the frozen north and would therefore probably rarely if ever prepare to meet one in battle. To take advantage of his personal out of game knowledge in game would be wrong and unfair; in this instance his character would not prepare to fight a Green Dragon nor would he have intimate knowledge of dragons unless specified.
In other words... When in doubt one should ALWAYS defer to what their "character" knows within the game and not what the "player" knows about the game.
I've actually seen reverse-metagaming.
I have one player who is so pre-occupied with not metagaming that he will roleplay himself out of metagame knowledge that his PC very well might know! How's that for strange?
Anyway, the prescription for this problem is simple enough: reward the good behavior and punish the bad behavior. If you use hero points or the like, definitely give them out when you see a player put roleplaying first (in a far, not stupid way).
I don't brandish a big stick when it comes to metagaming, but I'm not afraid to call a player cheesy if they're being cheesy, and I'm lucky enough to have a great group so that's usually enough.
Just as a suggestion that I have tried in the past that worked pretty well - have your players roll 20 d20 and write them down in a column. Have their bonuses for their skills written down and whenever you need a blind roll, just check their list of rolls and add their modifier - and cross them off as they use them.
It sounds like a pain in the butt but it works really well.
Just as a suggestion that I have tried in the past that worked pretty well - have your players roll 20 d20 and write them down in a column. Have their bonuses for their skills written down and whenever you need a blind roll, just check their list of rolls and add their modifier - and cross them off as they use them.
It sounds like a pain in the butt but it works really well.
Don't they then know if they have a good or a bad streak coming, which would in-turn result in opportunities for more metagaming?
I mean, it would probably work fine with my group, or any group that already has a handle on the problem... but a player who was intent on metagaming could probably remain cognizant of those 20 rolls...
Just as a suggestion that I have tried in the past that worked pretty well - have your players roll 20 d20 and write them down in a column. Have their bonuses for their skills written down and whenever you need a blind roll, just check their list of rolls and add their modifier - and cross them off as they use them.
It sounds like a pain in the butt but it works really well.
Don't they then know if they have a good or a bad streak coming, which would in-turn result in opportunities for more metagaming?
I mean, it would probably work fine with my group, or any group that already has a handle on the problem... but a player who was intent on metagaming could probably remain cognizant of those 20 rolls...
Not if they don't know when you're using their rolls - ie: if you yourself have their list and don't tell them you used one of their rolls.
Sorry, if I didn't make that clear.
Simple: start using their metagame'd knowledge against them. For monsters, make attack rolls behind the screen using adjusted stats. Sure the first time that you power up a few ghouls you're risking a TPK, but it'll throw them off their game. Yes, it sounds like a lot of work; because it is. Have a rather strange setting to give you excuses for why what normally looks like a temple or inn is really the morgue or private residence.
Simple: start using their metagame'd knowledge against them. For monsters, make attack rolls behind the screen using adjusted stats. Sure the first time that you power up a few ghouls you're risking a TPK, but it'll throw them off their game. Yes, it sounds like a lot of work; because it is. Have a rather strange setting to give you excuses for why what normally looks like a temple or inn is really the morgue or private residence.
Or screw with them and change the monsters abilities. I had a party that had never faced a red dragon and even though I made them roll for Knowledge about red dragons they still didn't take the hint - they went right along preparing for a fire breathing dragon.
They about had heart attacks when that crazy dragon breathed acid all over them. lmao!
I've actually seen reverse-metagaming.
I have one player who is so pre-occupied with not metagaming that he will roleplay himself out of metagame knowledge that his PC very well might know! How's that for strange?
Anyway, the prescription for this problem is simple enough: reward the good behavior and punish the bad behavior. If you use hero points or the like, definitely give them out when you see a player put roleplaying first (in a far, not stupid way).
I don't brandish a big stick when it comes to metagaming, but I'm not afraid to call a player cheesy if they're being cheesy, and I'm lucky enough to have a great group so that's usually enough.
A friend and myself have done that time and again. We're so familiar with the rules that we'll figure out ways to show that we don't know something. I don't really know why I do this because it'd be just as easy to figure out if there was a way I'd logically know it.
I've had players metagame and the best way to deal with it is call them on it. One time I had a player say "I know they're vulnerable to fire right?" His character in no way had the appropriate knowledge and I had to waste 5 minutes explaining that to him.
However I agree with Evil Lincoln's solution. Hero points are a good reward, and if you don't use them there are alternatives. I usually come up with some small IC reward (not loot usually). It is important to show your players that you appreciate them putting roleplaying first.
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I am old school. I just lie. :)
What I mean is, ask for rolls when there is no reason to roll. roll behind the screen yourself for some rolls and sometimes just roll for no reason behind the screen and then make a pretend note. Sometimes ask everyone to make a perception roll. but really they are making a Will save roll. just look at the dice they roll and ignore the rest and add it up behind the screen for their Will save. Stuff like that.
Just as a suggestion that I have tried in the past that worked pretty well - have your players roll 20 d20 and write them down in a column. Have their bonuses for their skills written down and whenever you need a blind roll, just check their list of rolls and add their modifier - and cross them off as they use them.
It sounds like a pain in the butt but it works really well.
Don't they then know if they have a good or a bad streak coming, which would in-turn result in opportunities for more metagaming?
There's a great rule from one of the Traveller editions that plays off this very idea. Some hidden rolls are worked as doubles, both by the Referee and the player, the point being that you generally have some sense of how on your game you actually are.
I am old school. I just lie. :)
What I mean is, ask for rolls when there is no reason to roll. roll behind the screen yourself for some rolls and sometimes just roll for no reason behind the screen and then make a pretend note. Sometimes ask everyone to make a perception roll. but really they are making a Will save roll. just look at the dice they roll and ignore the rest and add it up behind the screen for their Will save. Stuff like that.
Ok, this I like and had forgotten this. I haven't done this in years. Thank you for bringing this up! Works great!
Ok, this I like and had forgotten this. I haven't done this in years. Thank you for bringing this up! Works great!I am old school. I just lie. :)
What I mean is, ask for rolls when there is no reason to roll. roll behind the screen yourself for some rolls and sometimes just roll for no reason behind the screen and then make a pretend note. Sometimes ask everyone to make a perception roll. but really they are making a Will save roll. just look at the dice they roll and ignore the rest and add it up behind the screen for their Will save. Stuff like that.
I find myself doing this fairly often. I have some players who know the rules inside and out, are well versed in the Monster Manual and Bestiary, and I have to keep a poker face when describing a room or situation; one slip and they instantly know there's a trap or monster hiding. So, I do the phantom die rolls to freak them out a bit. They'll go back over an empty room repeatedly because they just know something's in there! After all, they heard me rolling dice...
If you have very well-behaved players like mine, who are excellent at keeping their PC knowledge distinct from their NPC knowledge, it can be fun to just lay it all out there. Tell them exactly what they're rolling and why, right down to the bonuses. Sometimes a game can be more fun if they know the whole story, and they can see how the pieces fit together. YMMV, of course, x3.
I am old school. I just lie. :)
What I mean is, ask for rolls when there is no reason to roll. roll behind the screen yourself for some rolls and sometimes just roll for no reason behind the screen and then make a pretend note. Sometimes ask everyone to make a perception roll. but really they are making a Will save roll. just look at the dice they roll and ignore the rest and add it up behind the screen for their Will save. Stuff like that.
+1.
Sometimes the old tricks just work the best.
I am old school. I just lie. :)
What I mean is, ask for rolls when there is no reason to roll. roll behind the screen yourself for some rolls and sometimes just roll for no reason behind the screen and then make a pretend note. Sometimes ask everyone to make a perception roll. but really they are making a Will save roll. just look at the dice they roll and ignore the rest and add it up behind the screen for their Will save. Stuff like that.
+1.
Sometimes the old tricks just work the best.
What an interesting game we play. Where the judge of the game must rely on trickery and outright lies in order to keep the game "fair." That's a paradox of the highest order. Some might even call it adversarial. Of course, whatever you call it, it's nonetheless true. The best way to keep the PCs on their toes, and maintain that sense of mystery, is to be mysterious, and sometimes that means crafty lies and skullduggery.
Hmm... I like the phantom die roll thing, but I'm afraid my players are so paranoid that they just would stop doing things entirely if I kept rolling dice or asking them to roll. I.e., I don't know if my Bluff COMBINED with my Perform (Storytelling) is good enough to keep things going.
But player paranoia leads me to the other thing I was going to post here...
How to stop metagaming?
1. Just do your best. Really--try to remind yourself and others just to remember that nothing may be what you think it is. That's all that can be asked--experienced gamers learn to see patterns and it's hard not to follow them. Expect that it's going to happen a little bit and just do your best not to let that little bit be a lot.
2. Remember that metagaming can lead to MISTAKES or jumping to wrong conclusions.
Most of the (extremely awesome, btw) players in my group have played D&D longer than I have, and are extremely well versed in various old tropes and cool items from Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. They remember more rules, spells, and items than I have ever learned (how did I end up being their GM again? I volunteered).
There have been times when they have mistaken something that I intended to be completely innocuous for some obscure thing published in 1987 which has led to odd conclusions.
A completely made up, exaggerated example for the type of thing I mean:
DQ: (Thinking) Okay, the Magic Gem of Win the Game is buried under this patch of ground. But what would be a cool indication that something neat is buried there? I know! I'll make the grass growing on top purple!
DQ: (Speaking to group) Okay, you go to the area Miss Green described, and in a clearing, there is a patch of oddly purple, slightly sparkling grass.
Player1: Purple grass? Wait, that sounds familiar.
Player2: Oh wait! Remember in Legends of the Thing DeathQuaker Has Never Heard Of? There was a monster that disguised itself as sparkly, purple grass, which actually emanated an antimagic field. It has unbeatable DR and the ability to automatically cast Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting every round!
Player1: Right. We run away.
And the Magic Gem of Win the Game remained buried forevermore
It's basically like the Gazebo scenario, only with metagaming using splatbooks I've never seen or read before.
NOW, my actual players do not do something this silly and it does not come up that often... but I have had to say, "Guys, make your knowledge checks to see if you know what this is, and it's definitely not this thing because I have no freaking clue what you're talking about, so STOP DOING THAT."
(Also, if the above scenario actually happened, my players would still figure out how to beat the bigbad with a pair of toothpicks and a rubber band and some bacon, so it wouldn't matter that they didn't have the magic gem anyway.)
What the moral of the story is is that metagamers will end up denying themselves cool stuff or neat challenges because they will spend all their time trying to "figure out what it is" rather than actually play the game. Most gamers interested in having fun will eventually give that up (me and my pals included).
A completely made up, exaggerated example for the type of thing I mean:
DQ: (Thinking) Okay, the Magic Gem of Win the Game is buried under this patch of ground. But what would be a cool indication that something neat is buried there? I know! I'll make the grass growing on top purple!DQ: (Speaking to group) Okay, you go to the area Miss Green described, and in a clearing, there is a patch of oddly purple, slightly sparkling grass.
Player1: Purple grass? Wait, that sounds familiar.
Player2: Oh wait! Remember in Legends of the Thing DeathQuaker Has Never Heard Of? There was a monster that disguised itself as sparkly, purple grass, which actually emanated an antimagic field. It has unbeatable DR and the ability to automatically cast Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting every round!
Player1: Right. We run away.
And the Magic Gem of Win the Game remained buried forevermore
ROTFL!!!!!!
What an interesting game we play. Where the judge of the game must rely on trickery and outright lies in order to keep the game "fair." That's a paradox of the highest order. Some might even call it adversarial. Of course, whatever you call it, it's nonetheless true. The best way to keep the PCs on their toes, and maintain that sense of mystery, is to be mysterious, and sometimes that means crafty lies and skullduggery.I am old school. I just lie. :)
What I mean is, ask for rolls when there is no reason to roll. roll behind the screen yourself for some rolls and sometimes just roll for no reason behind the screen and then make a pretend note. Sometimes ask everyone to make a perception roll. but really they are making a Will save roll. just look at the dice they roll and ignore the rest and add it up behind the screen for their Will save. Stuff like that.
+1.
Sometimes the old tricks just work the best.
Life is full of these paradoxes...it is what make things interesting.
