One idiosyncrasy of my players is that they great really irritated that PCs have to clean up other people's messes. They don't mean the bad guys; they just mean that there are sometimes already groups in the campaign world dedicated to the sort of problem they have to fix, so why can't that group take care of things?
My solution to this is to make them members of that group. It's tricky, but I think I'm getting the hang of it and my players love it.
Examples:
So my record is spotty, but I try. The problem is that I'm not sure there's an appropriate group here? Whose problem is it that Sidonai Drovenge signed the contract? Whose problem is it that his kids are trying to drive Westcrown into ruin in order to take over the Council of Thieves?
Maybe the Council should be take care of its own problems? Maybe at first it might not realize the scope of the problem and so it assigns the issue to low-level members (ie the PCs)?
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In the case of Legacy of Fire...
In the case of Legacy of Fire...
** spoiler omitted **
Well, sure. Except...
There's enough trade between the City of Brass and the material plane that Jhavul can't have been the first person to think of this scam. As shown in this AP, it's a scam that will probably work given enough time, and at under five years it isn't even that huge a commitment to an immortal being. Since it could upset the balance of power in the City of Brass so dramatically, shouldn't the Grand Sultan want to squelch it? He's got enough minions and slaves that he should be able to spare some for this sort of work.
Not a big deal, but if I run Legacy of Fire again I think I'll have include an option along those line. Maybe a squad of azers working for the City, or something.
My real problem with this AP is:
** spoiler omitted **
I was thinking of the oppression fighting idea when I made my character also, then things got switched up on me.
Hint Paizo if you are reading this. :)
We need one of these.
For CoT, you could easily have one or two groups be responsible. One would be other nobles of the city. I also think you could run this with the group being a secretive arm of the dottari working to end the corruption rampant in the city which would natuarlly bring them into conflict with the council.
We have had good success in our Council of Thieves campaign by making the PCs members of a minor noble house whose dual ambition is to restore Westcrown to economic prominence and make themselves a Great House. They started the game by totally co-opting the budding resistance movement and using it to create the Chain of Lights, a lighted and patrolled section of the Spera which has become a haven for nightlife and commerce.
This means that most of the city's problems are totally their problems. Currently they are trying to recruit minor houses to be under them in their rise to Great House, and they keep picking houses who are also under attack by the bad guys (mostly, I think, because the PCs and the bad guys have a similar eye for tactical weakness....) They are currently trying to salvage the Kilani, or at least the younger Kilani --they don't have much use for Lord Kilani himself.
I totally recommend making the PCs nobles, if your players will go for it. The adventure really wants the PCs to have a stake in Westcrown, and random freedom fighters are not going to be as satisfying. (I am a player in this, not the GM, but my impression is that you can't really liberate Westcrown, though you can hugely improve it. Infernal Cheliax is not the enemy here, and not tractable.)
When we ran Second Darkness we also made the PCs agents of the Winter Council, and frankly I would not even consider running that AP any other way.
We tried the noble-house strategy for Crimson Throne also, but were stymied by the move out of Korvosa for the later modules. I don't know what party composition would make that work, but our noble-house PCs were certainly not right. (In our hands, Council of Thieves has played like an improved Crimson Throne--some lumps, but no huge derailments.)
One idiosyncrasy of my players is that they great really irritated that PCs have to clean up other people's messes. They don't mean the bad guys; they just mean that there are sometimes already groups in the campaign world dedicated to the sort of problem they have to fix, so why can't that group take care of things?
My solution to this is to make them members of that group. It's tricky, but I think I'm getting the hang of it and my players love it.
Examples:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
So my record is spotty, but I try. The problem is that I'm not sure there's an appropriate group here? Whose problem is it that Sidonai Drovenge signed the contract? Whose problem is it that his kids are trying to drive Westcrown into ruin in order to take over the Council of Thieves?
Maybe the Council should be...
The issue is that many times those people who are supposed to solve the issue can't do so for various reasons, or they have been paid to "look the other way". It is at these times that the PC's are supposed to step in. Many times the issue causing the problem is the policing body.
You only need to look at our real world to see examples of what I have mentioned.
Well, sure. Except...
** spoiler omitted **
Left unchecked, Part I of Jhavhul's plan (become the Flamebleeder) definitely would succeed. That would be devastating for the Brazen Peaks at the very least and likely a good chunk of Garund, but sooner than later he takes off for the Plane of Fire. However, Part II is not "conquer the City of Brass" but rather "get Ymeri to fall in love with me." Success there still can't be taken for granted, and even if it succeeds, Jhavhul's plan never poses a direct threat to the City of Brass. To the extent that Jhavhul was a problem in the past, the Grand Sultan already smacked him down (thus the curse turning Jhavhul's palace in the City of Brass into a prison).
For a while I've been pondering adapting parts of the City of Brass boxed set for a high-level epilogue to Legacy of Fire. That endgame would entail the PCs working their way through the City of Brass to gain the Grand Sultan's aid in finally destroying the remains of the Flamebleeder once and for all.
But overall, there are a lot of forces aligned in opposition to Jhavhul--some powerful, some in disarray. The problem for the PCs is that few of them know about Jhavhul's plans, and none of them are particularly concerned about the fate of a little mountain town in Katapesh.
One idiosyncrasy of my players is that they great really irritated that PCs have to clean up other people's messes. They don't mean the bad guys; they just mean that there are sometimes already groups in the campaign world dedicated to the sort of problem they have to fix, so why can't that group take care of things?
In the Council of Thieves:
So rather then a pseudo-resistance, having the characters start out as Low-ranking Hellknight armigers - remember that they are not just fighters but also mages, clerics, and, conceivably, rogues (as investigators). This would require the group to all be Lawful though.
If you went with this idea ...
This also has two other vitures.
We tried the noble-house strategy for Crimson Throne also, but were stymied by the move out of Korvosa for the later modules. I don't know what party composition would make that work, but our noble-house PCs were certainly not right.
If I remember correctly, tbug's players hired some adventurers to do the out-of-Korvosa dirty work.
Wow, thanks so much for all the input, everyone!
For CoT, you could easily have one or two groups be responsible. One would be other nobles of the city.
We have had good success in our Council of Thieves campaign by making the PCs members of a minor noble house whose dual ambition is to restore Westcrown to economic prominence and make themselves a Great House...I totally recommend making the PCs nobles, if your players will go for it.
CoT has a few possibilities. Minor nobles would work, but they'd be hindered by the existing ties of their families and I'm not sure I or most other DMs are up to working out the exact relationship (and history) between all the major and minor houses beforehand and learn them well enough to not cause lots of trouble.
I admit that this was my gut reaction, but when I talked to my players they said that they felt satisfied with playing nobles in Curse of the Crimson Throne and didn't need to do so again in Council of Thieves. Someone raised the possibility of bringing those characters in and doing a whirlwind tour of Council of Thieves with their high-level characters. I'd need to translate stat blocks to 3.5, but I suspect that it wouldn't be quite the cakewalk some of them seem to think it would be. I haven't ruled this out, but I think that my players have ruled out starting over as low-level nobles all over again. They don't need a second set of aristocrat PCs, at least not yet.
Thanks for the suggestion, though! If I need to know the relationships between noble familes I'll just make my players work it out. For Crimson Throne I told them that any players who didn't provide me with a family tree would have one imposed upon them, and that proved to be a great motivator. :D
Wannabe criminals who want to dispose the Council of Thieves (or usurp it themselves) may also make for a fun story, but the city would probably be doomed in the end; without lawful inspirations Westcrown is going to suffer badly and the central government will take over.
I'm not so sure. I think that if a separate faction of the thieves' guild is aware that the actions of the Drovenge kids might bring down imperial wrath on the city then they'll start researching what needs to happen to prevent that. Thieves don't necessarily hate laws, so long as they're the people making them.
Another group that would be responsible for preventing what happens is the Hellknights - since they are charged with maintaining order and enforcing the rule of law.
Nice! Thanks for the ideas on how the AP would be affected by this choice. I think when I run this campaign I'll probably put this option forward as one possibility for the PCs.
A group of capable individuals who want to become nobles or create an order vaguely like the Hellknights in their own image however would have great fun and greater opportunities in this AP.
So, commoners looking for noble status? Being knighted is one way to achieve this, but if they want to become actual long-term Chelish nobilty (ie their kids will also be noble) then they'll need an imperial charter, won't they?
That sounds like a really interesting campaign, but maybe something more appropriate for a campaign set in Egorian rather than Westcrown.
I'll ponder.
The issue is that many times those people who are supposed to solve the issue can't do so for various reasons, or they have been paid to "look the other way". It is at these times that the PC's are supposed to step in. Many times the issue causing the problem is the policing body.
You only need to look at our real world to see examples of what I have mentioned.
I agree that the way Paizo writes it passes a reality check. I have no problem with them creating adventures playable by the widest possible demographic. I'm just explaining what I've learned about what will help my particular group enjoy the game.
Legacy of Fire:Jhavhul's definitely not the first being to think of the 1,000 wishes trick. It took me a reread or two to really notice, but Jhavhul stole his whole scheme from his erstwhile master, Ezer Hazzabaim (who simply had different motives). But the final Tale of Shazathared provides another example: the Grand Sultan of the Efreet. Magic just as powerful as that which transforms Jhavhul into the Flamebleeder ensures that the Grand Sultan remains the lone sultan of the efreet.Left unchecked, Part I of Jhavhul's plan (become the Flamebleeder) definitely would succeed. That would be devastating for the Brazen Peaks at the very least and likely a good chunk of Garund, but sooner than later he takes off for the Plane of Fire. However, Part II is not "conquer the City of Brass" but rather "get Ymeri to fall in love with me." Success there still can't be taken for granted, and even if it succeeds, Jhavhul's plan never poses a direct threat to the City of Brass. To the extent that Jhavhul was a problem in the past, the Grand Sultan already smacked him down (thus the curse turning Jhavhul's palace in the City of Brass into a prison).
For a while I've been pondering adapting parts of the City of Brass boxed set for a high-level epilogue to Legacy of Fire. That endgame would entail the PCs working their way through the City of Brass to gain the Grand Sultan's aid in finally destroying the remains of the Flamebleeder once and for all.
But overall, there are a lot of forces aligned in opposition to Jhavhul--some powerful, some in disarray. The problem for the PCs is that few of them know about Jhavhul's plans, and none of them are particularly concerned about the fate of a little mountain town in Katapesh.
I completely agree that the high muckety mucks of the City of Brass shouldn't care at all about some dump in Katapesh. What they should care about is that by having five hundred peasants (of whatever nation on the material plane) each give him two wishes he can gain enormous power. The Grand Sultan should have people who keep that sort of thing under their watchful eye. I think playing a squad of those people through Legacy of Fire could be a good time.
We tried the noble-house strategy for Crimson Throne also, but were stymied by the move out of Korvosa for the later modules. I don't know what party composition would make that work, but our noble-house PCs were certainly not right.If I remember correctly, tbug's players hired some adventurers to do the out-of-Korvosa dirty work.
Yes, they hired the iconics. It was a decent solution, but not perfect. I think Old Drake's Shoanti idea is a really good one, and probably what I'd do if I ran it again. (I also think that the Shoanti could work for Second Darkness, though not as well as agents of the Winter Council.)
In the Council of Thieves:
** spoiler omitted **
Why, WHY (!?!?!) must the awesome ideas for starting this campaign reach my AFTER we have finished it??? Running it with the PCs as "special investigators" is GENIOUS, it would work extremely well, especially if the PCs are the "shady cops" in the organization (ie, they are willing to break the law to get results).
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Besides being hellknights, nobles, or soldiers under the general, the PC's could be guardsmen of the dottari (or another unit of the Westcrown guard).
This has nearly all the advantages of the hellknight scenario, only the players are even less privileged to begin with. It would not have the "lawful-only" stipulation, though lawfulness is still encouraged, and mages, sorcerers, rogues, and other non-fighty types would probably feel more at home among the guard initially than the hellknights.
Note: if your characters are responsible to somebody really powerful (like General Vourne himself) then the plot of the second book seems weak and lame; you'd have to skip the best part of that book to make sense. To avoid this, make sure your PC's report to somebody lower on the totem pole than the General until AFTER the party in book 2.
After that, you could definitely be a squad of elite soldiers under the direct command of the general.
For reasons that might be hard to duplicate, by the time the internal conflict in the Council of Thieves was ready to come to a head, one of the PCs was a *member* of that Council. Having seen it play out, I think that's an awesome point of view from which to see the events --though the PCs will be a lot more involved, so some of those events can no longer be shuffled offstage but will have to be played out. The PCs certainly felt that the campaign problems were their problems. After all, they had worked long and hard to get a PC (and a covert tiefling, too!) onto the Council--they didn't want it blown up in their faces.
I can't figure out how you'd make this happen in general. It took a very, very politically ambitious lead PC and a lot of side adventures. But if it can be made to happen, it's great. No one is more involved than the Council, barring the two lead bad guys themselves. (Who were trying hard to recruit the PCs when the shit hit the fan--they were, I think, less than a day too late to succeed in doing so.) The endgame ended being all about trying to neutralize the conspiracy while keeping enough of Westcrown's institutions intact that the city would still function and be worth ruling. Whereas in the main line the idea of the PCs as rulers of Westcrown is sort of thrown out late in the game with relatively little support, in this continuation it's completely natural. In a sense, the PCs are not only the opponents of the tiefling siblings, but their beneficiaries--the conspiracy creates the chaos which the PCs can exploit to rise to the political top.
In retrospect things could have developed a little more slowly. It would have been nice if the lead PC had had time to marry the Mayor, not just court him, and if we had understood the noble houses a bit better.