Fubar= _____ up beyond all repair. Speaking of which...
They state very clearly which things cannot be bypassed with a +5 check to the DC. They go out of their way to specify which things cannot be bypassed. These are they:
While you are correct insofar as the rules as written go, the devs have stated that they intended to make the enhancement bonus on a weapon a hard, unavoidable prerequisite. I'll start looking for it again.
You cannot even permanently lose levels, a restoration spell and a week per gets them back.
Yes, not even from resurection effects (although it costs A LOT).
Guys, think about Sovereign Glue. It's CL20, yet it only requires "Make Whole," a second level spell. That doesn't mean that only Elminster can make the stuff, that just means your Spellcraft check is higher when you try to make it.
So your 5th level guy with Craft Wondrous Item and a total modified spellcraft roll of 12 can only make the stuff on an 18 or better, but a 10th level guy with a modified spellcraft of 18 can probably make a couple vials to carry around if he doesn't mind screwing up once or twice.
Pearl of Power
Requirements:
Craft Wondrous Item (must have)CL 17
Must be able to cast the right level
If you're 17th level then you also meet the "must be able to cast the right level" requirement, and the spellcraft check required is a 17+5=23. You could probably beat this on a 1, if 1s aren't autofails in your game.
If you're 10th level, and trying to make a 5th level (or below) Pearl of Power, then you don't have the CL but you can cast the right spell level, so you've missed one prereq. Your spellcraft check required to craft the pearl is 17+5+5=27. That can be a bit of a challenge for a 10th level caster, because he's probably looking at a spellcraft of 13 plus int bonus, which is probably around 19, so he's only succeeding in crafting it on a roll of 8 or better, and it comes out cursed on a roll of 3 or below.
If you're 10th level, and trying to make an 8th level Pearl of Power, you need to be shot because you can't use the dang thing anyway. But if some Frost Giant was holding a ballista to your head and forcing you to make it, your spellcraft check would be a 17+5+5+5=32.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Where did you see anything in pathfinder cost XP?
No magic item creation cost, no spell xp cost (i think that spells that needed XP cost in 3.5 they just have a material cost now).
I realize that enchanting does not require the spending of XP in Pathfinder. My posts are meant to poke fun at the notion that the crafting rules are clear, concise and error free.
If you check the entry for Creating Magic Weapons in either the core rulebook or the PRD you will notice a line that reads, "Creating magic double-headed weapons is treated as creating two weapons when determining cost, time, XP, and special abilities."
My point being that the rules have errors. It is also my point that the rules aren't as clear, as some would claim, as they are written.
I take exception to people giving their interpretation as fact.
As I mentioned up thread, obviously the rules are somewhat confusing, hence this thread and the multitude just like it, and are in need of some clarification. Otherwise, house rule as you see fit for your game.
Repeated claims by some that "you are doing it wrong" aren't particularily useful in my opinion.
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You can take 10, you can't take 20.
And as i have said in another thread:Here's the rule for taking 10
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
Hrmm.
*shrug*
Guess I'll start taking 10 more often. lol. My group's definitely been playing this wrong.
While you are correct insofar as the rules as written go, the devs have stated that they intended to make the enhancement bonus on a weapon a hard, unavoidable prerequisite. I'll start looking for it again.
I'd like to see it, because someone in my group is probably going to be doing that in our next game, next game session.
(I always thought FUBAR was __ up beyond all recognition)
I realize that enchanting does not require the spending of XP in Pathfinder. My posts are meant to poke fun at the notion that the crafting rules are clear, concise and error free.
I never said they were error free. I've got a whole list of pretty blatant math errors in the APG staff prices listed out in another thread - feel free to add to the list. I just said that this particular aspect seems pretty clear if you just follow the procedure.
Agree the magic rules ARE not clear on many things.
The magic items themselves have so many loopholes, exception, rule zero, spell changes, spell drift, magic item drift, etc, etc. that it is hard to use them as examples, sometimes.
(example = Pathfinder changed the way the spell Death Ward works, but the Scarab of Protection magic items still works & function, the same way it did in 2nd/3.0/3.5. Recreating the item under old rules makes more sense that trying to recreate it now.)
Anyway, the rules are not clear on many things.
Pearl of Power
Requirements:
Craft Wondrous Item (must have)
CL 17
Must be able to cast the right levelIf you're 17th level then you also meet the "must be able to cast the right level" requirement, and the spellcraft check required is a 17+5=23. You could probably beat this on a 1, if 1s aren't autofails in your game.
If you're 10th level, and trying to make a 5th level (or below) Pearl of Power, then you don't have the CL but you can cast the right spell level, so you've missed one prereq. Your spellcraft check required to craft the pearl is 17+5+5=27. That can be a bit of a challenge for a 10th level caster, because he's probably looking at a spellcraft of 13 plus int bonus, which is probably around 19, so he's only succeeding in crafting it on a roll of 8 or better, and it comes out cursed on a roll of 3 or below.
If you're 10th level, and trying to make an 8th level Pearl of Power, you need to be shot because you can't use the dang thing anyway. But if some Frost Giant was holding a ballista to your head and forcing you to make it, your spellcraft check would be a 17+5+5+5=32.
No.
In the second case it would be 17+5=22 (and that's only if you want to make it caster level 17 and not less) and you can take 10In the third case it would be 17+5+5=27 (and that's only if you want to make it caster level 17 and not less) but you can't take 10 since a Frost Giant is holding a ballista to your head.
No.
In the second case it would be 17+5=22 (and that's only if you want to make it caster level 17 and not less) and you can take 10
In the third case it would be 17+5+5=27 (and that's only if you want to make it caster level 17 and not less) but you can't take 10 since a Frost Giant is holding a ballista to your head.
Second case:
Check for crafting an item you meet all the prereqs for: CL + 5
Check for crafting an item you don't meet one prereq for: (CL+5)+5
In the second case, you do not meet the CL17 prereq, so your check is 17+5+5=27.
Right? If not, what am I missing? Rule:
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The three construction requirements highlighted, one of which the 10th level crafter does not meet:
Pearl of Power*
Aura strong transmutation; CL 17th
Slot —; Price 1,000 gp (1st), 4,000 gp (2nd), 9,000 gp (3rd), 16,000 gp (4th), 25,000 gp (5th), 36,000 gp (6th), 49,000 gp (7th), 64,000 gp (8th), 81,000 gp (9th), 70,000 gp (two spells); Weight —
DescriptionThis seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast that day. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl. Different pearls exist for recalling one spell per day of each level from 1st through 9th and for the recall of two spells per day (each of a different level, 6th or lower).
Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled; Cost 500 gp (1st), 2,000 gp (2nd), 4,500 gp (3rd), 8,000 gp (4th), 12,500 gp (5th), 18,000 gp (6th), 24,500 gp (7th), 32,000 gp (8th), 40,500 gp (9th), 35,000 gp (two spells)
The caster level listed as CL next to the aura IS NOT a requirement.
the cl next to pre made items isn't a prereq. I can make a lvl 2 pearl of power as cl 3. what some things like the weapons and armor do is force a cl needed to make them I never got the impression it could be ignored. just as some items like beavers I think also have level requirements I don't think these can be skipped.
The caster level next to the item is how powerful the item registers to detect magic and is used for determining DC for creating. Also counts as CL in the cases of dispel magic, disjunction, etc.
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Figured I'd ask this here, if I wanted to enchant say a sword do I need Craft Magic Arms and Armor?
Adding New Abilities
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
"Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
If I am reading this correctly I would not need the item creation feat to enchant weapons or armor.
Also I could not (or missed it) find the rules on enchanting something to make it +1. I would imagine it would need to be masterwork. Also, no DC (spellcraft) for enchanting?
The caster level listed as CL next to the aura IS NOT a requirement.
Huh? Where does it say that? Is there some rule errata or something? CL has been a requirement since the Dawn of 3.0.
If it's not a requirement, and a caster can set whatever CL he likes, why list one in the description at all?
The caster level next to the item is how powerful the item registers to detect magic and is used for determining DC for creating. Also counts as CL in the cases of dispel magic, disjunction, etc.
But Leo just said I get to roll against whatever CL I liked. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that they would list a CL beside a magic item that wasn't the CL they're talking about in the crafting rules, just like it makes no sense whatsoever that you'd roll against two different CLs to craft an item and to disjoin it. And it further makes no sense whatsoever that you'd be stuck with a minimum crafting level for weapons and armor, but not for other items.
Where are you guys getting this stuff from? Is this a Paizo thing?
Figured I'd ask this here, if I wanted to enchant say a sword do I need Craft Magic Arms and Armor?
You NEED the feat. No ifs ands or buts.
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet
The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.
In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The item was giving a CL 17 because that is the minimum level need to do a 9th level spell.
Assuming the pearl had a 9th level spell in it.
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In this case, they should have listed the CL as Venerable based on Pearl created.
They did not.
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If the pearl store a 9th level spell = minimum caster level is 17
If the pearl store a 5th level spell = minimum caster level is 9
If the pearl store a 1st level spell = minimum caster level is 1
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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The caster level listed as CL next to the aura IS NOT a requirement.Huh? Where does it say that? Is there some rule errata or something? CL has been a requirement since the Dawn of 3.0.
If it's not a requirement, and a caster can set whatever CL he likes, why list one in the description at all?
LINKY!The caster level listed as CL next to the aura IS NOT a requirement.Huh? Where does it say that? Is there some rule errata or something? CL has been a requirement since the Dawn of 3.0.
If it's not a requirement, and a caster can set whatever CL he likes, why list one in the description at all?
+1 agree with the LINK = plus extra
CL is also used to determine the item Saving Throws vs being destroyed, Dispel Magic Spells, and getting throw SR.
So everything get a CL number, regardless of whether it is based of a spell or not. (Belt of Dexterity being an example).
Which i disagree with.
It should be Caster level need to cast the highest spell needed OR Bonus x 3 = minimum caster level needed to create item.
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While you do not need to be of sufficient caster level to create magic items (as show by the errant of pearl of power), because you can add +5 DC for each caster level you lack.
(example 10th level caster could take +5 DC for not knowing the 9th level spell, and +20 for know being about to cast 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell at caster levels 11th, 13th, 15th and 17th level).
....
I understand they did it this way so sorcerer could create magic items without needing the spell. (+5 DC for not having the spell)
I understand they did it this way so NON-Caster could create magic items without needing Caster Level. (+5 DC for each minimum level needed to reach the CL needed, to cast the spell.)
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
While you do not need to be of sufficient caster level to create magic items (as show by the errant of pearl of power), because you can add +5 DC for each caster level you lack.
That would be a reasonable houserule, but its not what's there. The prerequisite is binary: you either have it or you do not. If you don't have it its +5 to the dc. Caster level is one prerequisite, not a series of prerequisites.
LINKY!The caster level listed as CL next to the aura IS NOT a requirement.Huh? Where does it say that? Is there some rule errata or something? CL has been a requirement since the Dawn of 3.0.
If it's not a requirement, and a caster can set whatever CL he likes, why list one in the description at all?
Wow, uhh thanks?
That read more like "Pearl of Power has a variable CL" than "CLs are meaningless even though they're mentioned in the rules."
So a 3rd level bard can make anything on the Wondrous Item list, huh? Just ignore the CLs, +5 his way past the spell requirements, and he's in business?
This is seriously how you guys play the game?
That would be a reasonable houserule, but its not what's there. The prerequisite is binary: you either have it or you do not. If you don't have it its +5 to the dc. Caster level is one prerequisite, not a series of prerequisites.
Leo and Benchak just said it wasn't a prerequisite at all, and you could choose what CL to make the item when you made it, so you get to choose your spellcraft DC. No offense to anyone, but that just seems ridiculous to me.
While you do not need to be of sufficient caster level to create magic items (as show by the errant of pearl of power), because you can add +5 DC for each caster level you lack.
That would be a reasonable houserule, but its not what's there. The prerequisite is binary: you either have it or you do not. If you don't have it its +5 to the dc. Caster level is one prerequisite, not a series of prerequisites.
Click FAQ on your post. As i can read that errant ether way.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Wow, uhh thanks?That read more like "Pearl of Power has a variable CL" than "CLs are meaningless even though they're mentioned in the rules."
So a 3rd level bard can make anything on the Wondrous Item list, huh? Just ignore the CLs, +5 his way past the spell requirements, and he's in business?
This is seriously how you guys play the game?
That would be a reasonable houserule, but its not what's there. The prerequisite is binary: you either have it or you do not. If you don't have it its +5 to the dc. Caster level is one prerequisite, not a series of prerequisites.Leo and Benchak just said it wasn't a prerequisite at all, and you could choose what CL to make the item when you made it, so you get to choose your spellcraft DC.
I was just pointing you to the errata that says the number next to 'CL' is not a 'Requirement'. That's the official ruling on the matter, not really up for argument.
And yeah, a 3rd level Bard can make any item on the list....providing they can make the spellcraft check (and afford it!) And since the minimum caster level of an item is limited by the spells used to construct it, more powerful items are still going to be out of the bard's reach until he hits higher levels.
For a more indepth discussion on this subject, along with some comments by developer Sean K Reynolds, check out This thread.
LINKY!The caster level listed as CL next to the aura IS NOT a requirement.Huh? Where does it say that? Is there some rule errata or something? CL has been a requirement since the Dawn of 3.0.
If it's not a requirement, and a caster can set whatever CL he likes, why list one in the description at all?
Wow, uhh thanks?
That read more like "Pearl of Power has a variable CL" than "CLs are meaningless even though they're mentioned in the rules."
So a 3rd level bard can make anything on the Wondrous Item list, huh? Just ignore the CLs, +5 his way past the spell requirements, and he's in business?
This is seriously how you guys play the game?
That would be a reasonable houserule, but its not what's there. The prerequisite is binary: you either have it or you do not. If you don't have it its +5 to the dc. Caster level is one prerequisite, not a series of prerequisites.Leo and Benchak just said it wasn't a prerequisite at all, and you could choose what CL to make the item when you made it, so you get to choose your spellcraft DC.
First question = Is this how i play the game = NO. I require one of the creators be able to has suffering Caster Level to cast the spell, even if they do not know the spell. === In other words, in my games, only cleric can create magic items that cast cleric spells, and only Wizard/Sorcerer can create magic items in my world. A fighter could not create a magic Hammer requaredless of how many feats he took...... He could help a wizard create one, but could not create one by himself.
Second question = Is CL a requirement = Which CL are you talking about.
Now i do think that the CL listed in the item description, should be the same as that listed for the items creation. It is NOT. But if you brows throw the magic items section, you can see that these two do not match on many, many items.
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Example = Belt of Incredible Dexterity = CL 8th listed.
Minimum Caster level for spell (Cat' Grace 2nd level spell = 3 level CL need to cast) = CL 3 minimum by spell level needed to create.
Now the belt give +2, +4, +6 bonus depend on belt... which are not based off the spell, but based of Magic Item Bonus Chart if you look at the price vs bonus given.
+2 bonus = Should be 6th level minimum CL level.
+4 bonus = Should be 12th level minimum CL level.
+6 bonus = Should be 18th level minimum CL level.
=== At which point someone it going to mention that Wondrous items do not follow the bonus x 3 for minimum caster level requirement, and this only applies to Craft Magic Arms and Armor.... which is true. But i feel that this is an oversight, and a LOOP-HOLE. Which allows wondrous item to be used to craft armor and arms and avoid the bonus x 3 requirement ===
............
Did they list a CL for each level of belt... NO.
They gave one CL number for all the belts, even tho each belt should have a different CL number for its creation.
...
Anyway. again = This is just an example of how you can come up with DC 3, or 6, or 8, or 12, or 18 for the items DC number need to create a magic item. Which number you use is not clearly defined by the Rules.
Benchak, thanks for the link.
So if I understand it, Scott Reynolds is basically saying:
1) That 3.0 and 3.5 and PF and APG all had the same error in them that was always intended to be fixed and never got fixed?
2) The CL listed in the item description means nothing, because a mage can set the CL whatever he likes, as long as it's high enough to cast the requisite spells.
And yeah, a 3rd level Bard can make any item on the list....providing they can make the spellcraft check (and afford it!) And since the minimum caster level of an item is limited by the spells used to construct it, more powerful items are still going to be out of the bard's reach until he hits higher levels.
So the bard takes +5 penalty, removes the spell as a prereq, sets the Caster Level at 1 since it now has no spell prereq, and rolls on a target number of 11, taking 10 on the roll. That trick works for any item in the Wondrous Item list that's got a single spell prereq. A 3rd level Bard can craft a Cubic Gate according to Scott's interpretation.
The whole thing is silly. It's as if they took a working system and errata'd it to brokenness.
1) = Have no clue what 3.0/3.5 did.
Pathfinder did change a few magic rules, like no slot requirement, double weapons cost double to enchant, other people can work on same item by providing spells.
The errant on "Pearls of Power", did add a new element to magic crafting that i did not know about before, ((and not sure i agree with it)), but it is posted so now RAW.
==Still can read that as a flat +5 to DC, or +5 to DC for each minimum level to get to CL level needed----Please click on BigNorseWolf post above under F.A.Q---the more people who click the more likely to get a repley.... and i would like to know :)====
2) = True (Highest Caster Level need to cast the Highest spell, or Bonus x 3 for Craft Magic Arms and Armor = Which ever is higher (( Wondrous items does not require the bonus requirement by RAW, but i see this as a loop-hole that needs to be fixed )).
True the CL in the item description "" Should be "" the lowest level need to make the item.
But a caster can alway make the CL higher if he is willing to spend the time and gold.
In this way, you can make a Wand of fireballs, and instead CL 3 for 3d6 damage per blast... You can up it to CL 9 and have the fireballs do 9d6 damage. (because you up the CL of the item).
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as i already said (CL) on many magic items do not match the math, for those with scaling bonus or ability's.
.....
Another example right now in Playtest of CL not matching
See Invisibility Sight magic item.
The listed CL for this item is listed as CL 8th.
The True Seeing spell is a 5th level spell at its lowest for a cleric. The minimum caster level for a 5th level cleric is 9th level.
I think the CL for this item should be CL 9th.
And yeah, a 3rd level Bard can make any item on the list....providing they can make the spellcraft check (and afford it!) And since the minimum caster level of an item is limited by the spells used to construct it, more powerful items are still going to be out of the bard's reach until he hits higher levels.So the bard takes +5 penalty, removes the spell as a prereq, sets the Caster Level at 1 since it now has no spell prereq, and rolls on a target number of 11, taking 10 on the roll. That trick works for any item in the Wondrous Item list that's got a single spell prereq. A 3rd level Bard can craft a Cubic Gate according to Scott's interpretation.
The whole thing is silly. It's as if they took a working system and errata'd it to brokenness.
I didn't read the thread in question, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be "remove the spell as a prereq" as much as it is "count that prereq as fulfilled". Which would mean you'd still have to meet the caster level for it.
I didn't read the thread in question, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be "remove the spell as a prereq" as much as it is "count that prereq as fulfilled". Which would mean you'd still have to meet the caster level for it.
So you're trying to say:
A) There IS a CL requirement,
B) It's NOT what's listed in the item, and
C) It CANNOT be bypassed by taking a +5 to the spellcraft check, even though they explicitly list what can't be bypassed, and caster level isn't listed.
Right?
Is that really the accepted consensus on how this works? If the CL requirement can't be bypassed, what can? Just the spell? Can't you bypass that anyway by having some other dude hang around the shop who knows the spell?
And yeah, a 3rd level Bard can make any item on the list....providing they can make the spellcraft check (and afford it!) And since the minimum caster level of an item is limited by the spells used to construct it, more powerful items are still going to be out of the bard's reach until he hits higher levels.So the bard takes +5 penalty, removes the spell as a prereq, sets the Caster Level at 1 since it now has no spell prereq, and rolls on a target number of 11, taking 10 on the roll. That trick works for any item in the Wondrous Item list that's got a single spell prereq. A 3rd level Bard can craft a Cubic Gate according to Scott's interpretation.
That does not work.
The +5 to remove the spell as a prereq, does not remove the CL needed to cast the spell in question.The pearl of power errant = Requires another +5 to cover the Caster Level requirement. Might do this.
==Still can read that as a flat +5 to DC, or +5 to DC for each minimum level to get to CL level needed----Please click on BigNorseWolf post above under F.A.Q---the more people who click the more likely to get a repley.... and i would like to know :)====
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So back to your example (two way to look at it, depend on BigNorseWolf FAQ).
3rd level bard creating a Cubic Gate (page 508 PF phb) = Plane Shift (5th level cleric spell able to cast at CL 9 at earliest).
So +5 for not having the spell +5 (once) by BigNorseWolf = 5 DC + 5 DC (no spell) + 5 DC (not meeting minimum caster level) = DC 15 total.
or
So +5 for not having the spell +5 (for each Plato ?? cleric or bard ?? Assuming cleric since cleric spell being subbed and Bard has no CL in cleric so x 5 for 1st/1L, 2nd/3L, 3rd/5L, 4th/7L, and 5th level spell/9 class level) = 5 DC + 5 DC (no spell) + 25 DC (CLx5 plato's) = DC 35 total.
Again this is a debate about RAW...
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In my homebrew worlds = i would not allow +5 DC to be used in this way. You would require a cleric present, and for said cleric to be at least 9th level.
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Click FAQ on your post. As i can read that errant ether way.While you do not need to be of sufficient caster level to create magic items (as show by the errant of pearl of power), because you can add +5 DC for each caster level you lack.
That would be a reasonable houserule, but its not what's there. The prerequisite is binary: you either have it or you do not. If you don't have it its +5 to the dc. Caster level is one prerequisite, not a series of prerequisites.
...how are you getting that reading?
And we know the devs aren't answering questions on magic item creation.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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It's very important not to mix up Character Caster Level(CCL) and Item Caster Level (ICL).
Let's go back to the Pearl of Power as an example.
The Pearl's default ICL is what's listed next to CL in it's entry. This is not a Requirement, it part of the item's statistics. If you try to dispel a Pearl of Power, you make your check against it's ICL. It can't be ignored with an increase to DC because it's what sets the baseline DC to begin with (ICL + 5).
Looking at a Level 3 Pearl, the default ICL is 17. If I'm crafting one, I can choose to lower the ICL to make it easier to craft. However, I'm limited in how far I can reduce it. The Minimum ICL a Pearl needs to apply to 3rd level spells is 5, so 5 is the lowest I can drop it's ICL. The DC to craft the Pearl then becomes 10 (ICL 5 + 5)
I now look at the Requirements section to see if I meet all of them. For a 3rd level Pearl of Power I need to be able to cast 3rd level spells. If I can cast third level spells, I can make a Spellcraft check to make the Pearl, DC 10. If I cannot cast 3rd level spells, I can add 5 to the DC, increasing it to 15 (ICL 5 + 5 + 5).
If I succeed, Voila! Pearl of Power.
QUOTE="beej67"
So you're trying to say:
A) There IS a CL requirement
Yes there is a CL requirement.
B) It's NOT what's listed in the item,
That is correct. the CL listed for the item "Should be" the lowest CL needed to create the item. But it is not. This CL listed is used for the stuff listed on page 460 PF phb.
The problem with using this number is that it does not match, on belts, or any other item that using bonus or has multi-level of power (example Ring of Protection).
Best way to get CL is use the Highest
A) Minimum Caster Level need to cast the Highest level spell used to create the item.
B) Magic bonus x 3 = CL ((bonus as listed on page 550, Table 15-29: Estimating magic item gold piece valuses)).
C) It CANNOT be bypassed by taking a +5 to the spellcraft check, even though they explicitly list what can't be bypassed, and caster level isn't listed.
Well before the Pearl of Power errant = I would have said you could not take +5 vs Caster Level
After the Pearl of Power errant = It looks like you can take +5 vs Caster Level (although is that +5 total or +5 per plato, i am not sure of right now... i think it is the latter).
my quote fu was off on this post, resored to bolds :(
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What is the caster level required to create a pearl of power?Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic).
If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3.
He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
(SKR, 8/18/10)
–Sean K Reynolds (08/18/10)
The example only show this as one step up ... so one might read this as a flat +5 to DC to over come all Caster Level. I do not agree with this way of looking at it because it cause problems.
But this in-itself create problems if you apply as a +5 DC as a flat increase in CL. On the other hand if you look at it as a Plato bonus for +5 DC for EACH step up needed ( +5 at 3rd level spells, +5 at 4th level spells, +5 at 5th level spell, etc) then this at lease make since to me.
And you do not end up with a +15 DC to create an item that otherwise would require a +25 DC normal to create. === which is why i beleave it is a +5 to DC for each step up the Plato. ===
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And yes i know the know the devs aren't answering questions on magic item creation.
I wonder why that is :? grumbles
@beej67
I think that you are confusing the CL that it's listed on the item (the one next to auras) and the caster level some items need and have it listed as a requirement (example cloak of resistance). And yes the caster level as requirement for making magic items (p.460) have been errata'd out of existance
The character's caster level isn't a requirement, you don't care if you are level 3 wizard and the item requires a 3rd level spell, you can make it but you have to take a +5 for not having the spell and the crafting DC of the item must be at least 15 (5 base + 5 for not having the spell + 5 (at least) because that's the minimum caster level for a 3rd level spell).
Normal Crafting Check is DC 5 + Caster level need to cast the highest level spell the item has, Or Bonus x 3 for Crafting Magic Arms and Armor. (which ever is higher)
That is the Caster level needed = for the craft check. (page 548, under Magic item creation)
+5 to DC for each requirement you do not meet.
Item requires elf to make and your not one = +5 DC
Do not have the spell = +5 DC
You are a cleric able to cast 4th level spells and the spell you want to cast is 5th level = + 5 DC
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Now the debate part
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If you are a cleric able to cast 4th level spells and the spell you want to cast is 7th level = then i think you need +5 for 5th level spells, +5 for 6th level spell +5 for 7th level spell = +15 total in this example
If you are a Bard that is able to cast 2nd level bard spells, and want to create a magic item that uses a HEAL spell (6th level spell).... Then +5 because you do not know the spell Heal...... Then + 5 for each spell level you can not cast as cleric (aka +5 x 6) = +30 to DC.
The heal spell is not on the bard spell list, so in effect you have zero caster level for this spell.
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If you are a Bard that is able to cast 2nd level bard spells, and want to create a magic item that uses a HEAL spell (6th level spell).... Then +5 because you do not know the spell Heal...... Then + 5 for each spell level you can not cast as cleric (aka +5 x 6) = +30 to DC.
Ummm I do not think this is true at all.
There was a post earlier that quotes SKR (I believe) that stated that this is an all or nothing. You have it or do not. So it would be +5 not +30.
Plus if you are basing the +30 off of the idea that you need to be able to cast 6th level spells to cast Heal, you are double dipping the penalty, since you have already hit that withthe penalty for not having Heal.
The character's caster level isn't a requirement, you don't care if you are level 3 wizard and the item requires a 3rd level spell, you can make it but you have to take a +5 for not having the spell and the crafting DC of the item must be at least 15 (5 base + 5 for not having the spell + 5 (at least) because that's the minimum caster level for a 3rd level spell).That's a big assumption that you add an extra 5 to the DC. The spell itself is just one requirement, not two or three. If you are missing a first level spell, yet can cast ninth level spells, it's still a +5 to the DC. The actual spell level is irrelevant unless specifically listed in the item like a pearl of power, and the actual level of the crafter is irrelevant unless specifically listed in the item like a Cloak of Resistance or the Bracers of Armor. Only then do you need to add +5 to the DC if the creator cannot match that requirement.
By the RAW, it's just one +5 to the DC for not having that spell.
Houserule it all you want that you add extra DC +5 for every spell level between what you can cast and what the item requires, but that is not at all RAW.
Ok how is any different the things i said from what i said?
I only mentioned the spell level in order to figure out the CL of the item.
Normal Crafting Check is DC 5 + Caster level need to cast the highest level spell the item has, Or Bonus x 3 for Crafting Magic Arms and Armor. (which ever is higher)
That is the Caster level needed = for the craft check. (page 548, under Magic item creation)
+5 to DC for each requirement you do not meet.
Item requires elf to make and your not one = +5 DC
Do not have the spell = +5 DC
You are a cleric able to cast 4th level spells and the spell you want to cast is 5th level = + 5 DC
The bolded part is not RAW.
There was a post earlier that quotes SKR (I believe) that stated that this is an all or nothing. You have it or do not. So it would be +5 not +30.
Plus if you are basing the +30 off of the idea that you need to be able to cast 6th level spells to cast Heal, you are double dipping the penalty, since you have already hit that with the penalty for not having Heal.
You said it is all or nothing = Could you please post a link to were this was said ??
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Double dip part... no.
+5 if you do not know the spell = If you know the spell you do not suffer this.
+5 for each Spell level you are not able to cast between what you can do, and what the spell requires. ((This is based on the peral of power errant)), although (( +5 Total bonus or +5 per spell level you lack; is what i am debating... some people read it one way, some the other )).
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Now let say you are a wizard creating a magic item with a 9th level Wizard only spell (17 minimum caster level).
17th level Wizard (does know the spell)= DC 5 + 17 = 22 DC check to create
17th level Wizard (does not know the spell)= DC 5 + 17 + 5 = 27 DC check to create.
9th level Wizard = able to cast 5th level spells (does not know the spell )= DC 5 + (6th/7th/8th/9th levels 4 x 5 = +20) +5 = 30 DC check
1st level Wizard = about to cast 1st level spells (does not know the spell ) = DC 5 + (2-9th level spells level 8 x 5 = +40) + 5 = 50 DC check.
17th level Cleric (does not know the spell)= DC 5 + (1-9th level spells 9 x 5 = + 45) +5 = 55 DC check
1st level cleric (does not know the spell)= DC 5 + (1-9th level spells 9 x 5 = +45) + 5 = 55 DC check
Now .........................
Some people are saying that it follow what is listed below which i do not agree with.
DC 5 Base
+5 DC for not knowing the spell
+5 DC for know being about to cast 9th level spells ((( See Pearl of Power errant in FAQ in PF PHB (listed in post above & also in post listed below as well)... If you do not know were this rule is coming from... last line )))
Crafter ( does not know the spell) is DC 5 + 5 + 5 = 15 DC
So someone who is not a caster, and does not know the spell can craft it at DC 15 vs a Wizard who can cast the spell and knows the spell requires a DC 22.... This is why i think that the +5 DC is per spell level you can not cast.
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Stuff.By your reasoning, the Master Craftsman feat would be almost worthless. Also, as I said, it doesn't fit the RAW. You're inventing this extra requirement out of thin air.
This lets a Master Craftsman both create magic items without the spell and without needing to have have any caster level in the needed class that the spell came from.
The bolded part is not RAW.Normal Crafting Check is DC 5 + Caster level need to cast the highest level spell the item has, Or Bonus x 3 for Crafting Magic Arms and Armor. (which ever is higher)
That is the Caster level needed = for the craft check. (page 548, under Magic item creation)
+5 to DC for each requirement you do not meet.
Item requires elf to make and your not one = +5 DC
Do not have the spell = +5 DC
You are a cleric able to cast 4th level spells and the spell you want to cast is 5th level = + 5 DC
So is the FAQ listed at the end of the PF PHB link not considered RAW ??
Gear and Magic Items
What is the caster level required to create a pearl of power?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3.
(SKR, 8/18/10)
–Sean K Reynolds (08/18/10)
Link to the FAQ were this post is listed =
Frequently Asked Questions for Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook (OGL)
+5 for each Spell level you are not able to cast between what you can do, and what the spell requires. ((This is based on the peral of power errant)), although (( +5 Total bonus or +5 per spell level you lack; is what i am debating... some people read it one way, some the other )).
No that's true only for pearl of powers (or some other similar item) because pearl of powers list on their requirements that you must be able to cast the level of spell that you want the pearl to restore, this is not the case with every item.
Although i still agree that it isn't clear if take +5 total or +5 for every spell level that you lack, i personally think that it's +5 period.
+5 for each Spell level you are not able to cast between what you can do, and what the spell requires. ((This is based on the peral of power errant)), although (( +5 Total bonus or +5 per spell level you lack; is what i am debating... some people read it one way, some the other )).
No that's true only for pearl of powers (or some other similar item) because pearl of powers list on their requirements that you must be able to cast the level of spell that you want the pearl to restore, this is not the case with every item.
Although i still agree that it isn't clear if take +5 total or +5 for every spell level that you lack, i personally think that it's +5 period.
""He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement""
I do not see were this would not cover other items as well. In effect he is letting a caster who is only able to cast 2nd level spells, the ability to create a magic item that requires 3rd level spells.
This would cover many other items as well.
Bolding it doesn't change reality. It's only a requirement because it's actually in the Pearl of Power item description as a requirement for crafting. This would only cover a few other items, and not every item.""He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement""
I do not see were this would not cover other items as well. In effect he is letting a caster who is only able to cast 2nd level spells, the ability to create a magic item that requires 3rd level spells.
This would cover many other items as well.
I will agree, that we disagree on this point.
Although i still agree that it isn't clear if take +5 total or +5 for every spell level that you lack, i personally think that it's +5 period.It seems quite clear that unless it's listed in the requirements (or in the case of magic weapons and magic armor, additionally in their item creation section), it's not a requirement.
My bad. I probably thought that you were saying it because of what Oliver has been saying. I suppose just assume I was replying to Oliver and not you, in that case. I was saying the same thing you are, I guess, but tried to word it differently for Oliver.Ok how is any different the things i said from what i said?
I only mentioned the spell level in order to figure out the CL of the item.
again i will agree, that we disagree.