In the advanced Player's Guide, unless they 'fixed' the Hero Points system in the errata, pp322-323; if you are using this, a player with with 2 hero points may cheat death.
"How this plays out is up to the GM" generally, the player is left with negative hit points, but stable.
Even if you RAW, the GM has plenty of leeway to rule as he or she sees fit.
Considering a player can get a point for donating a big bag of doritos or taking out the trash, the GM and players have a new tool, to make what happens in character death, an open option.
It's your game, rule it as you see fit.
It is a interesting idea...making rezs common...I can think of one fantasy novels that did it. It was by Steven Burst.
But I think the main problem is your players feel equipment is too important...and they need every last copper spent to be effective. Is that correct?
If so...it is hard to solve...I would probably talk to them about it out of game. Express your views on it and see what they say.
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As is my habit, I made a Cleaves card for it.
68. Save point
This marble slab stands on 4 oak legs at the corners. It is 4 wide, 7 long, and 1 foot thick. The legs are 1 foot long each. The marble is hard as normal bedrock and a minor artifact.
Hook: Once claimed by a character, their name appears on the side in black metal inlay. From that point on, whenever they die they appear buck naked on top of the table as if a true resurrection was cast on them. Any items that have to follow them, destined items, appear under the table. Destined items include cursed items, adventure path critical things, class items such as spell books, thieves tools, and holy symbols, and the free clothing they started play with.
PEACH: Please Evaluate and Comment Helpfully: If you can tell me what this thing would weigh, so characters can move it to a safer area, please do.
Marble Slab, 12"x48"x84" = 4480 lbs / 2032 kg
Oak "table legs" 8"x8"x12" = 21 lbs / 9.5 kg (each)
Total weight = 4564 lbs / 2070 kg
Source: AMLinkmmarble.com
This sounds like frustration to me. I guess I am reading more into it.I am actually not having any frustration.
Unfortunately this leads me to the conclusion that my players care more about there equipment then there characters.
You are. Certainly my players frustrate me but it has nothing to do with the way that they die.
I suppose I could have said I am not having any frustration with the stated topic but I assumed that could be inferred from the discussion so far.
Why do homeless people prize shopping carts?
Because they are home LESS. A shopping cart is something you push. You can take it with you but not everywhere.
Where do you want the characters to put their equipment? Why do you think they do not put their equipment there? How can you make those choices more appealing?
This(character having to keep resources at town) is a side effect of my idea. It is not why I had my idea. The idea is that players loose there equipment not there lives. This is not an issue for me but it seems to be an issue for others. I have responded appropriately to there concerns.
As is my habit, I made a Cleaves card for it.
68. Save point
This marble slab stands on 4 oak legs at the corners. It is 4 wide, 7 long, and 1 foot thick. The legs are 1 foot long each. The marble is hard as normal bedrock and a minor artifact.
Hook: Once claimed by a character, their name appears on the side in black metal inlay. From that point on, whenever they die they appear buck naked on top of the table as if a true resurrection was cast on them. Any items that have to follow them, destined items, appear under the table. Destined items include cursed items, adventure path critical things, class items such as spell books, thieves tools, and holy symbols, and the free clothing they started play with.
PEACH: Please Evaluate and Comment Helpfully: If you can tell me what this thing would weigh, so characters can move it to a safer area, please do.
Marble Slab, 12"x48"x84" = 4480 lbs / 2032 kg
Oak "table legs" 8"x8"x12" = 21 lbs / 9.5 kg (each)
Total weight = 4564 lbs / 2070 kg
Source: AMLinkmmarble.com
Thank you.
I'm going to have to expand the legs to 2 feet long and change the marble to 2 inches thick.
Considering a player can get a point for donating a big bag of doritos or taking out the trash, the GM and players have a new tool, to make what happens in character death, an open option.
I've never thought of using them to get my players to do stuff.
doing my taxes would be worth 2 points
buying be taco bell worth 1 points.
I could have a list at then end of each session.
All joking aside: I do use Hero points. I had fun coming up with a reason why one of my players survived being swallowed by a Purple Wurm.
I think the players' need to keep everything on them comes from two things. One is that they are usually travelling all over the world and beyond. The second is that most DMs can't resist messing with stuff that PCs leave behind at a base of operation.
O.k. I am thoroughly confused, so let me start from the beginning. I am under the assumption that you are floating this idea because you want to encourage the PCs not to carry all of their equipment with them everywhere. Is this correct, Karlgamer?
O.k. I am thoroughly confused, so let me start from the beginning. I am under the assumption that you are floating this idea because you want to encourage the PCs not to carry all of their equipment with them everywhere. Is this correct, Karlgamer?
no.
My sister tried to play D&D once. Her character died from being bitten by a giant mosquito during her first session. She gave up the game and gave me her gaming stuff.
There are pros and cons to any way of handling character death. If there is a long chore generating characters, the restore point may be best. If a gamer always come to the table with several spare characters, then their fun does not require the save point.
What if, instead of dieing, players ended up back in town without there possessions?
I realized that it wouldn't be realistic.
What are the possible downfalls?
I see quite a few benefits although maybe I'm just super tired.
Players would work together more because no one want to pay for another party members stuff.
Players wouldn't try to get there characters killed so they could re-roll a new one.
Players wouldn't carry all there eggs in one basket.
It would be an easy way to remove excess wealth from players.Knowing players they will find some way to abuse this system.
How would inhibit abuse if you ran such a system?
On the contrary, a campaign I am in as this entire idea as a plot point. The basic idea is that when night falls, everyone in this town flips open the cans of crazy. Its gotten pretty violent at some points.
When people die within a rather large radius of this town, they wake up the next morning in the place that would be the most logical for them to stay, completely alive and well with all their things. Except, of course, now they're cursed too.
Our entire party is now cursed after dying to an evil elven Samurai (we killed him before going down too! His mount finished us xD). Now we wake up back in the inn every morning after having horrible, nightmarish evenings of killing each other brutally. Very cool story, and now we're trying to figure out what is causing this to happen.
What if, instead of dieing, players ended up back in town without there possessions?
I realized that it wouldn't be realistic.
[...]
Knowing players they will find some way to abuse this system.
How would inhibit abuse if you ran such a system?
The key, I think, would be to place the respawn point on the PCs home turf. A place where some level-appropriate ‘starting gear’ could be easily required and have some way for the PC to rejoin the group relatively easily. It’s certainly doable fluff-wise – it’s magic (and maybe a powerful benefactor or two)…
Making the whole ‘free resurrection complete with (less awesome but decent) replacement gear and transportation back to your friends’ thing contingent on the PCs not being d*cks and meta-gaming the system should provide a compelling incentive for them to play nice.
Karlgamer
Spoiler'd us quoting each other :)
You seem to think this is very serious. I don't plan on doing this. This is a bad Idea. I realize that.
However there are a few arguments that are just not good arguments.
This is not meant to be sarcastic- it is an honest question for the OP.
Do you really expect- to the point of pondering this idea- that your characters will shave off part of their WBL and store it in some town for the possibility that they will be res'd naked and need to regear?
I'm not entirely sure was WBL is. I think it possessions?
I think its virtually always a good Idea to have backup resources.
It's smart, its believable, its realistic, its logical and it has president.Keeping all of your resources on you isn't smart, it isn't believable, it isn't realistic, it isn't logical and it doesn't have President at least not in real life.
Today, I finished packing my room(I'm heading to Chicago) I own lots of junk. It would be foolish to carry all my life on my back. I'm not an adventurer I don't have a bag of holding.
I don't direct deposit my checks from work. It is foolish of me to carry all of my money around on me. I'm not an adventurer I can't defend myself.
An adventurer might be unique in that carrying there lifes on there backs isn't a bad Idea but that doesn't mean having backup resources IS a bad Idea.
No offense meant here- but that sounds like diablo II tactics. Fill the "bank" with last level's gear in case you die and need it to do a corpse recovery.Well saying the idea is like a video game isn't invalidating the idea. I tryed to make this clear already:
if the only difference between Pen and paper and a video game was what happen when you died then we probably wouldn't play Pen and paper. Fortunately/unfortunately video games can't emulate the Pen and Paper experience.
The consequence for You as DM is that you would either need to tone down mosnsters or ramp up loot.Not sure if either of these are...
The problem with "leave your wealth in town" is that the game math is designed around you using your WBL for your current, worn gear. If you are running the game "as written" (and most folks aren't) then the expected APL vs CR of the monsters is done based on the WBL. Which means- if you give them standard WBL and make them keep 20% of it "in town" then they are 20% under par for their average party level (APL). This means that encounters of any given CR (challenge rating) will be more difficult than they should be.
Now- none of this is "bad" or "wrong". But it IS something the DM should be aware of when designing the encounters. You need to either 1) ignore it, and just know that you are making the game substantially harder.
2) Give them X% more wealth- with X% being the % you expect them to leave in town.
3) Go back through the math (its explained in the end of the bestiary) and tone monsters down manually or use lower CR beasties.
"Leave gear in town" isn't "bad" it just has a very real game effect that the DM has to be aware of.
You are right that it is at least somewhat realistic to leave gear in town, but only of "town" is home.. or a base, or some place you expect to return to. I can't, and won't speak for your game but I haven't been in one yet where we always returned to the same place. I guess in your scenario the PC's would know where their "respawn" point would be and could plan accordingly but even then- what if they are 300 miles from their last one and haven't reached the next one yet and die? What if they travel 400 miles and find a new one? What becomes of the gear they left behind in case they died? I am honestly not trying to be nit picky- this is a real issue. PC's often travel across the continent or even country and the further you get from "respawn point" the less useful the gear there is. Especially if they pack up and have to move and suddenly the gear they left behind temporarily is left behind on a more permanent basis.
Also: precedent. President is someone who leads a group, county, country, or what have you.
While I assume you will pack all of your things since you are moving- if you are going to play baseball you don't leave a bat at home. You bring your best with you. If you are going to do any given activity you bring everything you need to get the job done. You don't, (or probably don't- i should say) have a spare car at home just in case yours breaks down. You don't have a spare home on the side. Why? Because they are expensive. You bought the best you could when you had to because you knew you couldn't afford to have 2-3 of them just.. laying around. And when you moved, you sold the house and bought another and took your car along with you. To me- this is alot closer analogy for the PC's than when you move. PC's may very well have a home that has their furniture and/or library or whatever in it but the fighter isn't keeping a spare +2 vorpal axe there. if he has it he's using or, or selling it to upgrade his gear.
I'm going to just chalk it up to.. Your mileage may vary. To me, any game where the DM expected me to leave part of my gear behind so I'd be weaker than I should be because he thinks its more realistic just isn't the kind of game I'd like to play. I prefer the opposite 'realism' of the PC's not knowing where they are going so they keep everything with them so that if they have to move on they don't have to go back to town or waste 10-20% of their stuff because.. they had to move on. Even if a "here is your home down and base" scenario I'd still not count on not moving out of the area such that I'd have just left stuff behind.. and stuff left behind is stuff wasted. The PC's may think they know where they are going but they are *always* one small plot hook away from trans-versing the continent while under a time table to do X before Y activates Z and destroys the world.
-S
Also: precedent. President is someone who leads a group, county, country, or what have you.
Call me Mr. Malaprop.
Having a save point, they will leave their old, weaker, gear home rather than sell it.
I guess save points move when characters are forced to move their home base. It's a problem with almost every adventure path I have played or GM'd.
What if, instead of dieing, players ended up back in town without there possessions?
I realized that it wouldn't be realistic.
What are the possible downfalls?
I see quite a few benefits although maybe I'm just super tired.
Players would work together more because no one want to pay for another party members stuff.
Players wouldn't try to get there characters killed so they could re-roll a new one.
Players wouldn't carry all there eggs in one basket.
It would be an easy way to remove excess wealth from players.Knowing players they will find some way to abuse this system.
How would inhibit abuse if you ran such a system?
.........................
Player would play
Monks = Dont need stuff
Barbarians = Any 2 handed weapon will do
Cleric = Just need a cheap holy symbol
Sorcerer = Dont need stuff.
Druid = Stuff.. what that, i lose that every time i Wildshape already.
Players would work together more because no one want to pay for another party members stuff.
Players wouldn't try to get there characters killed so they could re-roll a new one.
Players wouldn't carry all there eggs in one basket.
It would be an easy way to remove excess wealth from players.
I just need to know one question, "What problem are you trying to solve?"
Isn't there another, easier way you can make the PCs work together? Threats of extreme punishment aren't going to do it, after all only a few characters can die (I'm assuming), the rest can still escape.
What do you mean by not wanting the PCs to carry their egggs in one basket? Although they've earned items you want them to leave stuff at home? Why???
You want to use death as a way to remove wealth? Hmmm. Death itself removes wealth, quite a bit of it. There are lots of other ways to remove wealth... starting with not giving so much of it in the first place. Also, keep in mind the CR/APL system is based on the assumption that PCs have a certain amount of wealth by level. Losing all their wealth is quite a punishment and would mess up any APL/CR calculation you do in the future.
So yeah, I don't thing we understand what problems you're having. We see your solutions to the problems, but we need to know the real problem you're trying to solve rather than your solutions.
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Trying to give some ideas to the original question, there was something like this touched on in the Drow War Trilogy campaign.
In that campaign setting there was no raise dead or ressurection, instead people who died stayed dead. However, there was a regular incursion of darkness vs the light(regular meaning like every thousand years) which would determine the order of things until the next battle was fought.
The player characters start the campaign at the base of this stone plinth as avatars of the 'light' and thus are able to be brought back to life but only at these pillars which have a connection to the battle.
It worked excellently in that campaign, an NPC being held hostage was a lot more of a threat than just how much gold it would cost to get him raised and it made the players give real consideration to how they would get to the nearest pillar if one of them fell in battle as well as ensuring that those areas stayed in friendly hands so the villians, the most powerful of which had similar powers, couldn't use them for their own ends.
I think the mechanic can be fun if worked into your world properly, but just setting a rule to make the PCs lose gear is much less so.
Sellgard, I see where you are coming from, but I think you should be a little more clear on the scale. PC wealth only accounts for maybe 10-20% of their total power. If you lose 20% of the bonus, the party is probably only down 5%. Considering how easily most groups blow through CR = APL encounters, it shouldn't be a big deal.
I'm not a fan of respawning in town for purely emersion reasons, not that I haven't worked the idea in once or twice in my own games (mostly after having played Legacy of Kain in the 90s).
How much of the wizard's power is bound in his spellbook? The warrior in his armor or weapon?
The thing is- go pick a level.. say 10th. Now reduce to wealth by 80% and check what you can buy. Melee: AC will be lower, saves lower, attack/damage will be lower. The ability to penetrate DR will be less.
Spellcasters will lose, potentially, spells per day, AC, resists, etc.
Give your 10th level PC's the gear of 4th level PC's and see how well they do.. Some encounters will be impossible, others will merely be difficult. I never said "the game fails if you do this" just that You as DM has to take the power loss into consideration.
-S
The OP should watch this and ask themselves, is this a solution to anything?
Naked corpse runs.
