Gunslinging in Guild Wars 2... (youtube link)

[ruemere]

Here is how gunslinging thief looks like in Guild Wars 2 preview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLUPciNFXjI

Note the ultra high agility, numerous gun-related maneuvers, and how the character makes up for lack of armor.

Regards,
Ruemere

[fray]

That is really cool.

[Jaçinto]

Neat but not relevant to the gunslinger playtest discussion. Move somewhere else.

[Jeremiziah]

I cannot freaking wait for GW2.

I wasted SO MUCH OF MY LIFE playing the first game.

I hope we can get a Paizo guild together when this thing finally launches.

[Cartigan]

Jeremiziah wrote:

I cannot freaking wait for GW2.

I wasted SO MUCH OF MY LIFE playing the first game.

I hope we can get a Paizo guild together when this thing finally launches.

I played a lot of the first game until I had done everything and Arena Net started going back on its original promises. I'm kind of shaky on getting the second because of that.

[Jeremiziah]

I think I know what you mean, but...what exactly do you mean?

All I know is that for the first two years after release, mid to high level gvg was about as much fun as a person could have with their clothes on.

[Cartigan]

Jeremiziah wrote:

I think I know what you mean, but...what exactly do you mean?

I doubt you do. Arena Net burst out of the gate claiming a change in the guard - a new paradigm based on free MMOs and an episodic full-length, stand-alone game on a schedule to keep it going. And no nickel and diming. I think the nickel and diming in the form of the Guild Wars Store came before the NOT stand-alone Eye of the North which now a series of "free" content updates have been released in the primary game for that you can't access if you haven't bought their expansion.

And never mind the pretending the expansions didn't happen. Factions is the bastard child - it previously hasn't gotten any real updates and you cannot go there to experience any holidays but the Chinese New Year specific to it - no Christmas or Halloween.

Quote:

All I know is that for the first two years after release, mid to high level gvg was about as much fun as a person could have with their clothes on.

Never played Guild v Guild and don't care for PvP.

[Jeremiziah]

Cartigan wrote:

Arena Net burst out of the gate claiming a change in the guard - a new paradigm based on free MMOs and an episodic full-length, stand-alone game on a schedule to keep it going. And no nickel and diming. I think the nickel and diming in the form of the Guild Wars Store came before the NOT stand-alone Eye of the North which now a series of "free" content updates have been released in the primary game for that you can't access if you haven't bought their expansion.

OK, then..I did know exactly what you meant. Those were many of the complaints that were aired during the first few years of GW's life. They never bothered me much, which I'll explain in a second...

Cartigan wrote:

And never mind the pretending the expansions didn't happen. Factions is the bastard child - it previously hasn't gotten any real updates and you cannot go there to experience any holidays but the Chinese New Year specific to it - no Christmas or Halloween.

Oh, Factions...the game that existed solely to give Naruto fanboys their class. And which set GvG down a path from which it never would recover.

Cartigan wrote:

Never played Guild v Guild and don't care for PvP.

Ah, then we have wholly different approaches to the game (not uncommon). I was almost exclusively a PvP player. The amount of time I spent in Random Arenas...unbelieveable. To me, new games being released would mean that I could buy the game and then immediately buy the PvP skills pack, so for me that GW Store was a good thing, in a way. It was good for the efficiency of PvP, but bad for the game experience. There was nothing quite like that first half-year or so when, if you wanted to play a certain build in GvG, you had to go adventure with a PvE character and capsig the elite skill. That led to many, many good times, and made PvP players be diverse in their skills, at least to a degree. I remember going on a skill run with a few of the guys who would later be in Team Quitter and just getting completely blown up in Ring of Fire, cracking up the whole time they were screaming at their monks to keep them up, all the while totally failing at aggro. Good times. The instant they just let you buy all the skills for $10, all that stopped. I've played top 100 GvG without having completed maybe 50% of all the PvE content in the game, and because I don't really like PvE very much, I never complained.

GvG is so much fun, man, if you find cool people to play with. If you don't, it's similar to having a hot poker inserted in your eye socket.

[Cartigan]

Jeremiziah wrote:

Oh, Factions...the game that existed solely to give Naruto fanboys their class. And which set GvG down a path from which it never would recover.

Laughably absurd assertion. Just like 95% of all attacks based on "I hate anime!"

Quote:

Ah, then we have wholly different approaches to the game (not uncommon). I was almost exclusively a PvP player. The amount of time I spent in Random Arenas...unbelieveable. To me, new games being released would mean that I could buy the game and then immediately buy the PvP skills pack, so for me that GW Store was a good thing, in a way. It was good for the efficiency of PvP, but bad for the game experience. There was nothing quite like that first half-year or so when, if you wanted to play a certain build in GvG, you had to go adventure with a PvE character and capsig the elite skill. That led to many, many good times, and made PvP players be diverse in their skills, at least to a degree. I remember going on a skill run with a few of the guys who would later be in Team Quitter and just getting completely blown up in Ring...

Except that argument is a non-starter - they eventually fixed the system so as to separate PvP and PvE and that had jack all to do with the nickel and diming and creating dependent expansions and otherwise COMPLETELY GOING BACK ON THEIR WORD.

[Jeremiziah]

I won't deny that they went back on their word, they most certainly did. You didn't like the result, I didn't mind it. That's all.

I also won't deny that I hate anime, nor will I apologize for hating it. Factions did ruin GvG, though, which is completely unrelated to my visceral hatred of Naruto. So, the main thing, the actually important point I was trying to make, is still pretty much not laughably absurd.

[ruemere]

Jaçinto wrote:

Neat but not relevant to the gunslinger playtest discussion. Move somewhere else.

I beg to differ. You've just had a demonstration on how to successfully implement guns into fantasy game.

Playtest Gunslinger fails on many levels, not just because it cannot use guns properly, or because class mechanics are clumsy, or just because guns are worse than crossbows.

The playable and fun class should be able to achieve amazing things. Should allow one to play it straight or engage into extensive resource management. It should dazzle opponents with its brilliance.

The GW2 Thief serves as a reminder.

Examples:
- acrobatics maneuvers,
- shadowstep,
- easy weapon switching,
- use of iterative attacks,
- mechanics do not involve expenditure of gold,
- mechanics rely on easily replenishable resources,
- the class can be played in an easy way (ranged damage only),
- the class can be played in a hard mode (melee with acrobatic dodges).

This is how the Gunslinger should be. Folks tend to argue details instead of looking at the broad picture.

Examples of what's wrong with current design:
- the class is static,
- weapons break ranged attacks paradigm (i.e. they mix ranged touch with typical ranged crossbow-like attacks) and do it clumsily,
- the class is needlessly complicated. It's been so many years since Monte Cook delivered Arcana Evolved... and we still get classes incapable of multiclassing, with their own uniquely incompatible subsystems built in.
- you cannot really use this class for a group of NPCs. 10x Gunslinger and you're breaking under Grit and Deeds, not to mention sheer mountain of cost management.
- the class does not support creative thinking in combat. It just shoots in different ways. The grit/deeds are so uninspired... AE Wood Witch, anyone? Tome of Battle classes were much better in this regard.

I could go on, but I feel it to be a bit pointless.

If I ever need Gunslinger my game, I will just borrow Sorcerer, limit spells to mobility and damage, and maybe some defense, name the spells differently, up hitpoints, and voila.

If I ever need guns in my games, I would make them just like they were in Warhammer - unpredictable, requiring skill and proper conditions to maintain them during downtime, cheap, easy to use and deadly.
Example: Guns allow any class to inflict ranged precise damage in addition to base damage, with a bonus equal to one's class divided by two. The catch number one: guns foul up easily. Catch #2: guns quickly run out of ammo and reloading takes rounds. More than one. Catch #3: gun maintenance requires skill. Catch #4: it's easy to soil one's supplies (rain) or go up into flames (fireball).
Yes, you would be able to lord it over (just like a Sorcerer with a few Scorching Rays), but you would be often screwed by guns (and so you would have to carry backup weapon management plan on yourself).

Regards,
Ruemere

[Razz]

I have to agree with the OP on this.

In all fantasy games involving gun users, it's been fairly balanced and the gun users were as fun and diverse to play as anything else.

Paizo should learn from how other games handle it.

[Vyctor Cross]

Razz wrote:

I have to agree with the OP on this.

In all fantasy games involving gun users, it's been fairly balanced and the gun users were as fun and diverse to play as anything else.

Paizo should learn from how other games handle it.

1. I see more posts about GW2 than the Gunslinger class, let alone anything about Paizo or the Pathfinder system.

2. The gameplay in that video is significantly different than the Pathfinder system. I do say that looks like an Orange, I thought we were comparing apples!

3. The pistols in that game do not have to be reloaded, if you want a blue blur effect in imagination land while using your Gunslinger, take Dodge and Mobility...it's the same effect. For bonus points you could take Shot on the Run.

4. The class specific ability :Unload. Feats to takethe two-weapon, and rapid shot. The gunslinger has the best BAB so the number of attacks it gets isn't an issue.

5. Ranged weapons in videogames have their damage dependent on the dexterity scores...which..wait...the gunslinger has that as well. How different do you think the gun damage is between that class and the others in the videogame?

5a. To take a moment and actually have a suggestion or thought for the Gunslinger class, maybe it should get an ability at higher evels that would allow them to multiple their dex modifier to the damage, but would still not allow Deadly aim to be used within the touch range increment. I.e. at 10th level the gunslinger can add 1 1/2 of his dex modifier to damage, and 15th he can add double his dex modifier. Alter that for rifles.

5b. If you want an unload ability it should be a higher level feature; Full-round action, but if you really want to get crazy a standard to unload all chambers of any gun held in hand(s).

[Krome]

ruemere wrote:

Lots of good stuffs

The best take I have yet to see in a fantasy game of a gun user is the Gun Mage from Privateer Press for the Iron Kingdoms setting.

At first I was THRILLED to see the Gunslinger as a playtest. Read it and decided to wait for the next playtest. I do expect the next incarnation to be MUCH better though.

[Blazej]

While I think that preview of Guild Wars 2 is cool, I don't think that I would like it the Pathfinder class looked like that.

I did like the acrobatic jumps and dodges in the video though and would like to see more of that in the Gunslinger. The class currently has a bit of that feel right now in some of it's abilities, but I think it can be a bit better. From the games I played, the gunslinger seems to just take 5 foot steps as he fires and reloads his weapon. If an enemy approaches him, he just steps away as he fires again because he has enough hit points to take the hits and because more movement would just provoke an attack.

What I did not like was the use of iterative attacks. I think it is a very good example of why I hate iterative attacks for the Gunslinger. I see it eventually becoming a moment from Evil Dead or Army of Darkness where Ash unloads his shotgun a dozen times before having to reload and that is what I see in the video (minus the actual reloading).Iterative attacks generally have not played well with movement in 3rd edition or Pathfinder. I would like to avoid giving the Gunslinger a reason why she should stay still. Reloading currently is a bit boring for me mostly because it means that there isn't any thinking I have to do about it. I just stay where I am and reload my gun so I can fire again next round. I would rather see the Gunslinger be a balanced option for a class that performs one attack per turn.

[ruemere]

I am fully aware that one to one conversion is impractical. The video is meant to illustrate that gunslinging can be enjoyable and rewarding experience, with several different modes built into class.

I've been tempted to build my own version of the class, however doing that would be counterproductive. These fora are meant for brainstorming and testing, counter-development is out of the scope.

Having said this, I'd like to also mention that there are simple means to meet your needs:
- make the act of shooting a gun a standard action.
- full-attack action would still result in a single shot, however, at the same time a gunslinger would be able to sacrifice attacks and actions to achieve additional effects (like being able to complete partial reloading, adding acrobatic dodges or jumps, or just dashing in and out of melee).
- to avoid standing still, allow gunslinger splitting actions between attacking, moving, maneuvering, reloading.
- allow weapon holstering as free action.
- use simple denomination for weapon categories (simple [unreliable, easy to use, easy to maintain, easy to manufacture ammo, cheap], martial [opposite of simple], exotic [experimental, with sights to increase range, revolving barrels to improve damage and so on]).

And while we're at this, just make a rule that subsequent attacks do not do as much damage as primary shot. So the gunslinger could go pew-pew-pew, it's just that his special attack abilities would not apply beyond first shot.

For example, your character could be shooting with his primary exotic gun, reloading (partially) his secondary martial gun, while quickly positioning herself for a flanking attack with a dagger (or tertiary simple gun).

Regards,
Ruemere

[Jaçinto]

Ok when it comes to all the jumping around and dodging, that is called having a high dex based AC and ranks in acrobatics. What do you think the dex part of your AC means? Dodging out of the way. What you do when you dodge is fluff roleplaying open to your own description. Now for holstering a gun as a free action. Come on, seriously? Ok no, because if that were true then drawing would need to be an automatic free action as well because drawing is a heck of a lot easier than holstering, but doing it as a free requires a feat or doing it as part of a movement as long as you have a +1 BAB or higher. Holsters should not be easier than drawing. Also if you want any gun as anythig but exotic, do it in your own world. Guns are exotic in Golarian which is the primary focus of pathfinder. Read the information about Alkenstar and it will tell you why guns are exotic. They are only made in one country and said country does not make many because they do not want to flood the market. Now when I say they do not make many, I mean their main forge for guns makes one per month and they are never masterwork. They can make more, but they don't. Not many guns exist compared to other weapons and the knowledge of how to make them is just as rare, therefore they are exotic. Ok when people are going to complain about why a weapon is exotic, do some research into the world of Golarian because exotic is not just a word for a weapon category. It denotes things like rarity and difficulty of use for most people due to the lack of trainers. So guns being exotic fits the world that the developers created. If you are doing a homebrew game, do whatever you want. Heck, Numeria has laser guns. Do you want those to be common too instead of exotic? Look, any rare weapon type is exotic and guns are VERY rare. You want it common? Flood the market with guns and have lots of people fully knowledgeable in their use and construction and have them train anyone who asks. THEN it wont be an exotic weapon.

[ruemere]

Please consider using paragraphs. Reading a wall of text is painful (and slow). I would like to address your concerns, but the form of your post is very discouraging.

I'd like to assure you that I have considered each suggestion prior to posting it here, and not just in context of Golarion. I have also run campaigns with worlds, where guns and melee coexisted (Warhammer), and guns were not something unusual or game-breaking.

Finally, if you haven't done so, go read Arcana Evolved and its concepts of simple/complex/exotic categories, weapon and spell templates and unified progression. It's been around for quite some time now, and it contains a lot of indirect advice on building cohesive game systems... something which may have been somewhat amiss given recent emergence of mutually incompatible classes/archetypes and mechanics in Pathfinder.

I do not intend to bash designers here, though. Their job is tough and subject to subsequent, often biased, scrutiny. I just would like them to prefer to work with a goal of extending the system instead of introducing yet another exception-based idea.

The intent is, again, to bring the discussion back to the basics - gunslingers can be made enjoyable without baggage of exceptions (as in: grit/deeds), incompatibilities (with class subsystems confined to class, the class becomes difficult to multiclass), artificial limiters (golden guns or rather, artificially inflated prices) and unnecessary bookkeeping (gotta love yet another class with unique power pool).

Regards,
Ruemere