So, I was wondering...
When the Dragon Disciple uses his Dragon Form I or II, does his bite still get a +1.5 strength bonus? And do his claws and bite still do energy damage as well?
I think RAW makes his bite attack even for the dragon form do +1.5 strength+ d6 energy, but not the claws, because of the wording for the bite under the Dragon Disciple says whenever the DD uses his bloodline to grow claws, which I think would include Dragon Form I, providing he did it as a class benefit, and not from a scroll or even from one of his sorcerer spells.
What do you think?
Oterisk wrote: So, I was wondering...
When the Dragon Disciple uses his Dragon Form I or II, does his bite still get a +1.5 strength bonus? And do his claws and bite still do energy damage as well?
I think RAW makes his bite attack even for the dragon form do +1.5 strength+ d6 energy, but not the claws, because of the wording for the bite under the Dragon Disciple says whenever the DD uses his bloodline to grow claws, which I think would include Dragon Form I, providing he did it as a class benefit, and not from a scroll or even from one of his sorcerer spells.
What do you think?
Changing into a dragon using dragon form or form of the dragon, grants a bite attack, which is a primary natural attack. Dragons bite attack normally grant 1½ str bonus to damage, so I would say that it applies when changing into one as well.
I wouldn't grant the energy bonus to the claws of the dragon, as it is tied to using the claws ability. I would however allow the sorcerer/dragon disciple to use the claws ability while changed into a dragon to gain the additional benefits.
"Dragon Bite (Ex): At 2nd level, whenever the dragon disciple uses his bloodline to grow claws, he also gains a bite attack."
I think that is pretty explicit that this only affects the bite when used with the draconic claws.
However,
There is nothing to prevent you from making use of your draconic bloodline claws while in Form of the Dragon (in addition to the standard FotD wing/tail attacks).
Small draconic claws/bite will be doing 3d4+3d6 - average 18 damage
Medium draconic would be 3d6+3d6 - average 21 damage
FotDI would be 2d6+1d8 - average 11.5 damage
FotDII would be 2d8+2d6 - average 16 average damage
FotDIII would be 4d6+2d8 - average 23 damage
Note - if your GM has allowed you to pick up Improved Natural Attack this changes slightly because the hit dice progress 1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6 > 3d6. These trends are amplified when using haste.
The above averages would change to:
Small - 21
Medium - 23
FotDI - 13.5
FotDII - 19
FotDIII - 30
Remember that your draconic bloodline claws can only be used a limited number of times so you would need to use your discretion as to whether or not the improvement would be worth it.
It should also be pointed out that if you are attempting to focus on the draconic bloodline attacks, you could speak with your DM and reference DD in 3.5 had unlimited uses of these claw and bite attacks, so it might be more practical to always replace FotDI and FotDII's attacks with your bloodline versions.
On the flip side of the argument, we really are only talking about 3d6, or an expected 10.5 damage for a class that lacks melee prowess.
Martial classes at an equal level will have
5-8 more BaB
4-6 more to attack/damage rolls (weapon training, favored enemy, etc)
Power Attack - more damage, higher accuracy from above
3~4 iterative attacks per weapon (natural attacks never gain these)
Stronger per hit damage makes bypassing DR much easier
So...10.5 damage is pretty paltry when you consider the huge disadvantages that the class will already be facing.
Even though RAW would imply that the elemental bonuses should not be applied to a dragon's attack, I think it is perfectly within reason to expect that a class that is so focused on dragons would be able to make use of all their bonuses when they reach their optimal form.
Honestly, Dragon Disciple just seems to lack some polish to the RAW abilities, which is either because Paizo didn't really intend for it to seriously melee or just because they haven't devoted enough attention to it yet. Adding a list of feats like the natural attack variation of Ranger, cleaning up some of the claw abilities (like the silly daily limitation for a prestige class), among some other tweaks would really improve the class.
Or at least add more incentive to put more levels into it and make it the focus instead of it just being flavor heavily paired with martial classes.
Actually, the difference isn't that great, I was working on a build for the PFS legal level 12 DPR challenge, going with a Barb4/Sorc1/DD7 build. The difference in BAB is 3, but the DD has +12 Strength, from class, rage and spell bonuses. And with 5 attacks per round, versus even a 4 from a THF on speed (cough... haste), the DPR might actually be better. That's what I am trying to figure out.
Not to mention that the DD will have some pretty awesome self-buffs, such as Heroism, Haste, Mage Armor, False Life, and a few others that would do nicely with a rod of lesser extend.
I've actually been working on a similar build for my campaign, but I've found it incredibly debatable whether or not adding in a pure BaB class is actually worth it when you consider the spell options.
Assuming Magical Knack is acceptable you can knock Transformation and Greater Heroism to level 12. Both paired with a rod of lesser extend would likely give you 24 rounds at 12 base BaB with another +4 to hit.
While heavily dependent upon casting buffs, a level 12 caster level could have its level in BaB, 4str/dex/con/nAC, +5 attack (4 more from str), access to FotDI (+4str/2con/3nAC) as a daily ability and the spell (can cast ~4 tier 6 spells, so T+GH+FotD*2). You can also toss in things like Great Invisibility and some monster summons to be even more ridiculous.
Both Fighter and Ranger from the APG have some interesting natural attack options you could also consider in place of Barb (since you can already cast Rage as a spell).
Sure you can use the claw ability of your bloodline, as long as you burn rounds of use for it. Barbarian is a good fit, personally I think a monk can work too with a somewhat lenient DM.
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