The gunslinger has been introduced as an alternative class for the fighter core class. I have read the forums here regarding them as lame or needing severe reworking. The fighter, as is, is better in most, if not all, regards to firearms in combat. They have tons of bonus feats to be able to throw onto firearms, weapon specialization ext. not to mention weapon training(firearms) that you could easily incorporate. The gunslinger is supposed to be a fighter alternative, keeping the fighter aspect but switching from swords and axes ext. to firearms. I have two major issues with the gunslinger and i would like to make them heard. Most people are upset at the touch AC ruling, that doesn't bother me at all, mechanically it makes sense. My two concerns with the class are as follows in regards to a base fighter.
First off, reloading times.
Reloading times for in example the pistol is a standard action. With the use of the new Rapid Reload adaptation for firearms is reduced to a move action. Unless you are using the 3.5 Wizards D&D incorporated into your Pathfinder game, there is no way to reduce this further. With 3.5 there is a weapon enhancement in the Magic Item Compendium named Quick Loading.
For +1 enhancement bonus(crossbow would translate over to firearms easily)
holds 100 rounds and is a free action to put ammunition into the item. after the rounds are over, you spend a move action to restock. The gunslinger, the class specifically designed around using guns better than any other, has these same limitations as everyone else. This aspect i believe could use some reworking. Either have them be able to reload faster by one step(free for pistols and move for rifle) or have a feat specifically for gunslinger level 1+ to do the same thing like Crossbow mastery from advanced player's guide but for firearms. This full BAB class has no use for it because they would never be able to make iterative attacks in a round due to reloading times.
Secondly Gun Training.
In the printed play test document, You receive gun training a total of 4 times with only 2 guns listed. Granted, when the finished product comes out i would expect more guns like that in the Pathfinder chronicles campaign setting where there are 6 different types of firearms, if not more.
The ability states you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and a bonus to damage rolls equal to your dexterity modifier. nice ability in all, but not up to par with a fighter at all for lack of progression. you gain it four times but no benefit to the previous ones. After the first i would add a +1 bonus to hit and damage for each previous to make them on par with the fighter. if a fighter picked up a firearm at 20th level as opposed to a gunslinger 20th level. say you had a 24-25 dex at 20th level gunslinger including wishes or belt of dex. at 20th level you would be doing(without magical enh on the gun itself) on a pistol 1d8 plus 7 before feats and such. crit range 20(x4). A 20th level fighter with the same gun, and no dex to speak of will be doing 1d8+4 before ALL the bonus feats that the fighters get more than the gunslinger. In addition to Auto-confirming crits with the weapon, can never be disarmed with the pistol and its 20(x5). The 20th level of the gunslinger giving you a feat you can get at 11th level twice...not the most amazing to speak of. Anyone else have any remarks to add/comment, i would love to hear from a dev team on this one if they have the time to spend. Thank you all for your time.
Us guys on the Gunslinger Alpha Version post proposed the following changes/additions in our 1.4.0 version gunslinger.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a gunslinger becomes further trained in another type of firearm. She gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using this type of firearm. In addition, the bonuses granted by previously selected firearms increase by +1 each. For example, when a gunslinger reaches 9th level, she receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one type of firearm and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the type of firearm selected at 5th level.
A gunslinger also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with firearms she’s selected. This bonus also applies to the gunslinger’s Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against firearms of this type.
I realize the original +Dex mod to damage is gone for gun training, but this works just like the fighters, though its focus is narrowed to selecting a single firearm, not a group of weapons. Then again, to even out the lack of the gunslinger gaining those bonuses to a bunch of weapons, maybe she should still have the +Dex mod to damage?
Elghinn, can we not discuss your version of the gunsligner, on every forum concerning the gunsligner, please? It's not going to be your version that shows up in the new playtest or the final version, so technically, for the rest of us who are trying to not go with homebrew...it's completely irrelevant.
That being said, good job sean, i never noticed that, mostly because I have never gotten a fighter to that level. I was aware of it, it just didnt stick out in my mind, because I've never used it.
No way should a fighter (or any other class) be better with a gun than a class designed to use it.
good catch.
Id actually like to see the gunslinger with some of those abilities, maybe earlier because they can only be used with guns (16-18th level?)
the good deeds can be bought with feats anyway, the deeds the fighter is missing are really that good, he can get amatuer gunslinger with a feat...so yea essentially what can the gunslinger do better with the gun, that a fighter can't do?
exactly, human fighter 20th level has 22 feats to choose from. What does the gunslinger have that the fighter can't do with more feats you know? thank you for your added perspective :)
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I have two major issues with the gunslinger and i would like to make them heard. Most people are upset at the touch AC ruling, that doesn't bother me at all, mechanically it makes sense. My two concerns with the class are as follows in regards to a base fighter.
Right now, from the alpha official perspective, the Gunslinger is a fighter variant, but it has been proven that the class is even inferior to a fighter archer. The reloading issues and Gun training mechanisms have been acknowledged by the designers, and they probably have projected to correct them in any way for the future beta and last official versions. ;)
It's not going to be your version that shows up in the new playtest or the final version, so technically, for the rest of us who are trying to not go with homebrew...it's completely irrelevant.
Even if I agree that the topic isn't supposed to be put on the table whenever we are speaking of the gunslinger, you are getting it totally wrong : the 1.4/1.5 isn't supposed to be a homebrew, but a tool to show to the designers what ideas the community had to improve the mechanisms of the class. Gosh, the purpose of the 1.4 itself is -exactly- to avoid the situation where we would have to rely on homebrews to make this class enjoyable after the final version is out. Even if it isn't the version that will come up, to just insinuate it is useless and a loss of time isn't going to help anything at all, especially when the ideas come from so much people and are not just something one random dude brought up.
Right now, from the alpha official perspective, the Gunslinger is a fighter variant, but it has been proven that the class is even inferior to a fighter archer. The reloading issues and Gun training mechanisms have been acknowledged by the designers, and they probably have projected to correct them in any way for the future beta and last official versions. ;)
Do you happen to have a link to any of these posts? i see people saying that the dev team has acknowledged issues or that they are looking into it but i have not seen any as of yet. Not sure if im not looking in the wrong place or something ><.
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http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/ultimateCombatPlaytest/gunslinger/counterIntuitiveDesignGunslingerGunsCo reClassesMultiPart&page=5#228
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/ultimateCombatPlaytest/playtest/gunslingerLv1PFSPlaytest&page=1#6
And globally any post about the Gunslinger topic when it was playtesting time :
http://paizo.com/people/StephenRadneyMacFarland/posts#tabs
I sure hope the designers are still around there though, and that they really took everything into account, including the diverses suggestions and observations like yours.
We are all waiting for whatever the Dev's kick up. I kind of assume it will be available sometime this month (march) since Stephen said we has working on it and just wanted to run some things through Jason, etc.
Stephen as already stated he has read the other gunslinger versions.
In my opinion I don't think they will go with the "pickle" method because it's a whole new rule for gunslinger ranged only (why can't I shoot my xbows or bows that way) so it *probably* won't work that way.
It's really only reloading that's the issue, which is actually solvable by six shooters (although I hope they don't go that way either)
Aside from reloading. You will run into damage issues as the feat economy is so poor but the fighter/ranger that does ranged has more feats available to him and has less feats required to make his class mechanics actually work and his weapon not suck.
I really like the flavor of that kind of stuff, but it should be handed out in class (free) deeds and abilities that don't cost grit.
I'm actually questioning why grit even exists.
Let's take something like 'dead eye', couldnt this just be a higher level free ability that cost nothing to use all day long? I mean it makes the touch AC go from 20-40' At higher levels with more mobile (or larger monsters) it's not going to be a huge issue.
But as far as I can think off the top of my head it's the only 'dangerous' one that maybe should be limited somehow.
Targeting for free at higher levels isnt going to break the bank.
Signature deed type stuff like lightening reload should just be given out at 6th level, which would fix the whole iterative thing...
Basically if stuff was just moved around to the levels it made sense at and given as a free 'deed' (class only feat) these things would not only make the class viable but I dont think they would over power it?
Oh Im not saying the deeds are bad, they just aren't so rule breaking they need this limited grit system to 'balance' them out.