Now, if any players from my group are reading this ..... *deep breath* ..... You bastards have already stolen my Bard, my Inquisitor, my Ranger and now my Cleric, go use your own greymatter for once, goddamit! Here we go, Half-Orc Sorcerer (bloodline to be determined with your help, hopefully!)
going for Strength 12, Dexterity 14, Constitution 13, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 11, Charisma 17 (includes racial +2), aiming to increase Charisma, then Con, then flat out charisma till the campaign ends.
I'm thinking Elemental, Draconic, Serpentine or Shadow as my Sorcerer Bloodlines, and these are spells I am thinking I should be taking, and I'm also aware that most Paizo campaigns officially 'end' around the level 13-15 mark.
I am also wondering whether or not I should go Full Sorcerer (although I loathe having that miserable BAB Sorcerers and Wizards must endure), going Dragon Disciple (Rawr) or take a level of Fighter (I know Ranger is mathematically better than Fighter, but those bonus feats, and the fact I am trying to avoid a heavy coating of cheese, points to the Fighter as my go-to dipping class) and take 7 levels in Eldritch Knight before swinging back to Sorcerer. While I know that our current party, Bard, Inquisitor, Ranger, Fighter, Cleric plus my Sorcerer pretty much has the Melee/Physical Ranged part fairly stitched up, I enjoy having a little bit of 'Oomph' in that direction with every character I make, if only for the inevitable scrap the caster will get involved in.
Obvious feats would be Combat Casting, Defensive Combat Training, Magical Aptitude, Spell Penetration, Cosmopolitan and either Forge Ring (if going Full Sorcerer or Dragon Disciple) or Arcane Armor Training (if going Eldritch Knight)
1st level:
Cantrps: Acid Splash, Resistance, Detect Magic and Prestidigitation.
First Circle Spells: Mage Armor and Magic Missile.
2nd level:
Cantrips: As 1st Level plus Spark
First Circle Spells: As 1st level.
3rd level:
Cantrips: As 1st level.
First Circle Spells: as 1st level plus Protection from Evil (or Chaotic).
4th level:
Cantrips: As 2nd Level, plus Arcane Mark.
First Circle Spells: As 3rd Level.
Second Circle Spells: Alter Self.
5th level:
Cantrips: As 4th Level.
First Circle Spells: As 3rd Level, plus Charm Person.
Second Circle Spells: as 4th Level, plus Dust of Twilight.
Any and all suggestions on the composition of the 'Ruthless' Sorcerer is welcomed. I have checked out the (unfinished) Sorcerer Handbook made by Minstrelinthegallery, but I wanted to double-check with some other people first.
And again, Jason, Sarah, Martin, Luke, Michy .... stay the eff away from this, please, you guys have systematically yoinked every character concept I've statted for this and the past three campaigns. Cut it out.
Sorcerers have a lousy BAB for a reason. They're all about spells. Give him some mooks to handle combat while he plays controller/buffer. Give him a way to escape if things go wrong. Full casters should be hard to kill, and smart enough to vanish if they're losing.
Ruthless isn't much to go on. That could entirely be handled with RP. I could ruthlessly fireball you, or ruthlessly cast Hold person, and then walk up and stab you with a knife. Either way, it's a third level spell. I can't offer a lot of help until I know which you prefer.
As far as the rest of it...Sorceror has some wiggle room, since you really only need one good stat, Charisma. If you cast spells on allies and yourself most of the time (mage armor, haste, stoneskin...), then you don't even need that great of a charisma. Start with a 15, and you're good.
Ruthless could be defined as a level of rogue. A high strength arcane trickster could be quite mean. Some of the classic spells there would be invisibility, and darkness at low levels.
You could also take a look at the Ninja playtest. Ninja powers run off of charisma, so that's an option as well.
If you're headed toward eldritch knight or dragon disciple; you could also look at barbarian/sorceror.
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Finally, remember that Kingmaker takes place outside. Lots of wilderness adventures. Build appropriately. You can get by without Cosmopolitan, perhaps.
Since your charisma is a bit low, there's either two ways to go: Focus on melee as top priority, or focus on spells and skip melee at all. If you want to go for melee, just make sure you've got minimum casting skills and buff your strength and so on. Someone will probably be able to fill you in, but IIRC draconic sorcerers can be quite decent at melee. Just don't expect Fighter value in combat.
If you go spells, you have to go spells at all possible times. Since your starting Cha is just 17, you have no room at all to lose when it comes to spell levels and stats.
Sorcerers have a lousy BAB for a reason. They're all about spells. Give him some mooks to handle combat while he plays controller/buffer. Give him a way to escape if things go wrong. Full casters should be hard to kill, and smart enough to vanish if they're losing.
I know, just always been a melee-ish person. Nothing quite so satisfying after a hard day of dealing with the general public than going home and putting on your Rage-Face and cleaving your way through a horde of baddies.
On the other hand, you're correct. Swap out, ah, Mage Armor for Vanish, perhaps? Bracers of Armor aren't that far out of reach after the third level, and given as a Sorcerer my character isn't supposed to be in the thick of things, and adding Defensive Combat Training to the mix helps avoid the Combat Maneuver slaughter. I suppose I'm trying to do too many things with the one character.
Alright, I'll go Full Sorcerer ... now what Bloodline would be best for the 'Ruthless' theme I'm going with here? I'm looking at the Spell Selection and it's staggeringly underwhelming in terms of 'ouch' spells, but surviving to the level where I can go invest in some big 'ouch' spells for added punch is my goal ... then again I haven't played a Sorcerer in years, I'm more of a Wizard guy myself ... because at low-levels I just grab spells, put them into my Spellbooks and then make Wands with Utility Spells such as Light, Endure Elements, Mage Armor, Floating Disk and Identify, and 'fun' stuff such as Web, Attribute Buffing Spells and Gust of Wind.
Ruthless isn't much to go on. That could entirely be handled with RP. I could ruthlessly fireball you, or ruthlessly cast Hold person, and then walk up and stab you with a knife. Either way, it's a third level spell. I can't offer a lot of help until I know which you prefer.
As far as the rest of it...Sorceror has some wiggle room, since you really only need one good stat, Charisma. If you cast spells on allies and yourself most of the time (mage armor, haste, stoneskin...), then you don't even need that great of a charisma. Start with a 15, and you're good.
Ruthless could be defined as a level of rogue. A high strength arcane trickster could be quite mean. Some of the classic spells there would be invisibility, and darkness at low levels.
You could also take a look at the Ninja playtest. Ninja powers run off of charisma, so that's an option as well.
If you're headed toward eldritch knight or dragon disciple; you could also look at barbarian/sorceror.
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Finally, remember that Kingmaker takes place outside. Lots of wilderness adventures. Build appropriately. You can get by without Cosmopolitan, perhaps.
Thank you for that. By 'ruthless' I meant spells such as Pain Strike, which could brutally incapacitate a target, and spells that could provide devastating results, as well as RPing as a cold, driven bastard. I have yet to touch the Ninja class yet, haven't got my hands on the latest Advanced Combat, and I like the concept of a brutal and ruthless Arcane Trickster who uses magic and stealth to get up close to a target and then takes them down with a combination of spell and steel.
Since your charisma is a bit low, there's either two ways to go: Focus on melee as top priority, or focus on spells and skip melee at all. If you want to go for melee, just make sure you've got minimum casting skills and buff your strength and so on. Someone will probably be able to fill you in, but IIRC draconic sorcerers can be quite decent at melee. Just don't expect Fighter value in combat.
If you go spells, you have to go spells at all possible times. Since your starting Cha is just 17, you have no room at all to lose when it comes to spell levels and stats.
Errr, 17 is low for a stat at first level? And yes I was looking at the Dragon Disciple but was concerned about taking the Sorcerer's limited Spell Selection and compiling that with the Dragon Disciple's slightly limited spell progression. Although the Prestige Class does cover my concerns over armor, melee-in-a-pinch abilities and keeping up with the Bloodline Powers.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Just some thoughts:
Ruyan.
Good Stuff
I'm currently debating with our GM about making a Wizard rather than the Cleric, but he wants to 'challenge' the Group. Thus far the only challenge has been not throttling the entire group for stealing all my good ideas and leaving me with a Class I really don't like....
If I do opt for the Dragon Disciple path, probably go Strength 15 (+2 Racial) Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wisdom 11 Cha 15 and spend my stat increases on Charisma, trusting to the DD Prestige Class to increase the important (for this class, at least) scores appropriately.
Eh, we go by rolls most of the time, as we find the characters are more organic that way, while point-buy seems to end up with cookie-cutter characters. That said, I enjoy 20 point buys, but the 15 point ... tends to create characters that can have issues outside of their niche. Still, I believe one poster made an excellent point that Low Scores does not automatically = automatic failures. Honestly, most of us are lucky to roll a 15 or a 16, and rarely do we get more than one or two such rolls per character. Maybe it's because the scores are well rounded or maybe it's just dumb luck, but we really don't have that much of a problem with 'low' scores like a 17.
I'm sort of mad for Half-Orcs and Monstrous Races. Apologies for linking Warcraft Art to these boards, but here is an awesome picture of a Orc-themed Arcane Caster that pretty much makes me go "SORCERER!" (Yes I know it's a Warlock.) I do look at the concept for a Human Sorcerer, but from a Rule of Cool angle, I look at a Half-Orc Arcane Caster and think "Man, I can actually pull that off these days!"
I did look at those Bloodlines, but thing is, the party is relatively good aligned. I think I can get away with being a Hard-Ass, but as soon as I start popping fiendish abilities or develop strange mutations my character will be quietly taken out into the woods, set on fire and then have the ashes scattered in the wind. I honestly think I'm pushing it with Serpentine and Shadow Bloodlines as things stand. Yet ironicly enough, I could play a Wizard Necromancer and nobody so much as gives me a funny look, go figure.
Don't get me wrong on the stats, we roll ours as well (4d6 - keep top 3), but roll 3 x 6 stats, from which we get to pick the most appealing one and also have a "heroic median" of total stats >= 72 or you are entitled to roll again.
Then again, as you said - stats will matter less with higher levels.
To me the half-orc makes a fine sorcerer as well, though personally I usually end up playing a human.
Concerning the summoning: make them believe you are using the evil monsters for a good end - like the prestige class from 3.5 (name eludes me, sorry), thereby tricking them into furthering good goals, screwing them on their home plane.
BTW, did you have a look at the undead bloodline?
Ruyan.
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In my opinion, the stats & most of the feats look fine.
Combat Casting - good for what it does - losing spells sucks
Defensive Combat Training -not sure this is necessary]/i]
Magical Aptitude -[i]superfluous. at low levels, this matters, but it'll hurt having later on. consider swapping.
Spell Penetration -good for higher levels, not needed usually til 9th lvl+
Cosmopolitan -can be good, especially for Diplomacy & Perception
Forge Ring/(if going Full Sorcerer or Dragon Disciple) Arcane Armor Training (if going Eldritch Knight) of all the crafting feats, this seems like the least commonly used. Scribe Scroll or Craft Wondrous Item would probably serve better, long term.
All that said, I'd probably go with:
I Hit Things Build: Sorc 4 / Barbarian (or Fighter) 1 / Dragon Disciple 10.
Obviously, needs to be Dragon Bloodline.
Pros: Gets you your melee/caster guy, with wicked high strength.
Cons: loses caster levels all over the place, and tends to be a bit of a glass cannon - Aracne Armor Training will come in handy here.
For spells, concentrate on No-Save and Buff Spells (Blur, Mirror Image, Vanish, Displacement, and Shield will be your best friends)
or
Fire, Fire, Fire Build: Sorc 20 (or however high you get)
Orc Bloodline. Feats focused around Spell Damage & increasing save DC's.
(Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus/Elemental Focus/Greater Elemental Focus: Fire).
Take the Half-Orc racial substitution for +1/2 HD when casting Fire spells & you're pumping out xd6+x+1/2HD on your Burning Hands, Fireballs, Scorching Rays, etc.
Pros: Nothing says loving quite like a Fireball, after all. Can do the primary Arcanist role very well, and feels like a sorcerer.
Cons: Weaker against Fire Resistant foes, kind of a glass cannon, very feat intensive to get your DC's high-high.
Either way, both are very viable characters, with smart play (seen them both at actual tables, so no theory-craft involved there), and have completely different Happy Moment times.
If you go elemental fire, the Ifrit is a good race to go. Nothing says elemental bloodline like flames for hair. Sure, it lacks subtlety, but I don't think that's what you are going for.
And have you considered Summoner? They get a 3/4 BAB, Early entry to some cool spells, (haste, black tentacles and simulacrum anyone?) and a massive menacing monster buddy for melee madness.
Hmmm, Human Sorcerer with the Orcish Sorcerer Bloodline would definitely make an interesting 'half orc' concept (given that the Bloodline gives you the Orc subtype, and nothing is stopping me from making the Sorcerer 'a very ugly man with pale grey skin, slightly pointed ears and a severe underbite') and if I add Sorcerer Favoured Class Bonus, I cover my main gripe with the Sorcerer class, the 'lack' of Spell-Variation.
Half-Orc (or Human) Sorcerer with the Green Dragon Sorcerer Bloodline would make an interesting 'melee' Sorcerer, as you said taking lots of No-Save and Buffing spells. Am going to have to pick up both Core and Advanced manuals, sit down and plot out which spells would be the best for such a character, hmmm.
I have not actually considered a Summoner, truth be told. Half-Orc Summoner with a Falchion or Greataxe (or Longspear >_>) fighting alongside some eldritch creature, have access to some useful skills and while lacking in overtly offensive spells, with Use Magic Device and some brainpower, can turn the Spell-list to some great 'stalling' devices that can separate groups of enemies or hurt them severely.
Thank you all. Going to go and have a think about these three options for a little bit.
I'd like to thank everyone who gave up their own time and effort to help. After a bit of wrangling, and the threat of my patented sweaty moob-torture, our Inquisitor has decided to become a Cavalier instead and the Fighter has chosen to become an Evocation-Specialist Sorcerer with the Water Bloodline (Frostballs, anyone?).
And Assassin PrC has been cleared for Neutral-alignment entry in the campaign (note that nothing stops an Assassin from turning good after meeting the requirements of the PrC, but I'm going to struggle and remain at Neutral Alignment for as long as I can, and be the sole non-good bastidge in the group!). Will be going Half-Orc Rogue 5/Assassin 10 and then maxing out Rogue for as long as the campaign lasts.
Again, many, many thanks all.
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Frostballs, anyone?
Ze blue balls?
O_O
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.....Frostballs, anyone?
Ze blue balls?
O_O