Monster Racial Bonuses

[jason barbour]

I am going to be running a "morally ambiguous" campaign, with monsterous humanoids as playable races.

I have read the Monsters as PC's section of the bestiary, but it doesn't clearly describe how to determine the racial bonuses of most monsters. For example, one of my players wants to be a Doppelganger, but there is no "creating a doppleganger" section.

I would like to let my players roll their own stats instead of using the predetermined examples of each race. Anyone got some ideas? Official rulings would be AWESOME? (Hint to Paizo staff members who may be reading this)

-Thanks for any input!

[Remco Sommeling]

If the monster has an odd score substract 11, if it is even substract 10, if the example has no class levels that will be it's racial modifiers.

[TwiceBorn]

jason barbour wrote:

I am going to be running a "morally ambiguous" campaign, with monsterous humanoids as playable races.

I have read the Monsters as PC's section of the bestiary, but it doesn't clearly describe how to determine the racial bonuses of most monsters. For example, one of my players wants to be a Doppelganger, but there is no "creating a doppleganger" section.

I would like to let my players roll their own stats instead of using the predetermined examples of each race. Anyone got some ideas? Official rulings would be AWESOME? (Hint to Paizo staff members who may be reading this)

-Thanks for any input!

The Dawnforge RPG by Fantasy Flight Games includes a number of monstrous races as PC options, including dopplegangers, ogres, lizardfolk, minotaurs and yuan-ti. The setting is 3.5 OGL, so you may need to make some tweeks for PF, but it might give you the inspiration you need.

See here for a preview of the campaign guide: http://watermark.drivethrustuff.com/pdf_previews/474-sample.pdf.

[Mok]

Yeah, if the creature does not have any class levels then all of the stats have a base of either 10 (if the number is even) or 11 (if the number is odd).

If the creature has class levels, then if they are only NPC levels (warrior, expert, etc.) then the creature has the Standard Array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), but if the creature has at least one level of a PC class then it has the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).

[jason barbour]

Mok wrote:

Yeah, if the creature does not have any class levels then all of the stats have a base of either 10 (if the number is even) or 11 (if the number is odd).

If the creature has class levels, then if they are only NPC levels (warrior, expert, etc.) then the creature has the Standard Array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), but if the creature has at least one level of a PC class then it has the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).

I understand this concept, and usually that is what I do. However, in the case of Doppelganger, it seemed a bit off...

Str +8
Dex +2
Con +2
Int +2
Wis +4
Cha +2

??? Seems like a pretty steep adjust for a creature with a CR of 3. Especially when considering their special abilities, immunities, and spell-like abilities.

Also, that PDF link doesn't work...

[Zakur Opzan]

The Savage Species book from 3.5 has several of those. There is also an effective char level in that book. For instance a doppleganger has an EL of 8. It gets +2 to all abilities save Wis which is +4. To make it PF compatible, I would give it a +2 to wis, a +2 to whatever and a -2 to whatever. (the -2 is because if it isn't standard of its race it has to be different) It is up to you to balance out the savage species.
Some are a bit easier like lizardfolk. +2 str and con, and -2 int. Which is standard PF race makeup.
If you get stumped, you can always do the human, 1/2 elf, 1/2 orc thing and let them get +2 in whatever score they wish.
Hope that helped!

[Mok]

jason barbour wrote:

??? Seems like a pretty steep adjust for a creature with a CR of 3. Especially when considering their special abilities, immunities, and spell-like abilities.

Yeah, it is steep. My only guess is that it's just one of those instances where it's pretty clear that by the book they aren't meant for PCs.

The stats end up being a 33 point buy, which helps keep in perspective that it isn't too far above PCs. From my previous analysis, these stats are only contributing about 18% to just one of the CRs for this creature.

It kind of make sense. Usually Doppelgangers tend to be loners and so they end up being a solo encounter. They need some buffing of their stats so that they can offer some challenge to the party when he finally reveals himself and attacks.

[James Risner]

Remco Sommeling wrote:

If the monster has an odd score substract 11, if it is even substract 10, if the example has no class levels that will be it's racial modifiers.

The "every 4 HD you get +1 ability" starts after the Racial HD. So a 4 HD race gains it's first +1 to an ability after the 4th Class level (at which point he has 8 HD.)

[reefwood]

James Risner wrote:

Remco Sommeling wrote:

If the monster has an odd score substract 11, if it is even substract 10, if the example has no class levels that will be it's racial modifiers.

The "every 4 HD you get +1 ability" starts after the Racial HD. So a 4 HD race gains it's first +1 to an ability after the 4th Class level (at which point he has 8 HD.)

Is this correct? That monster racial die do not count toward the +1 ability score increase per 4 HD?

I'm trying to figure out the racial ability modifiers for an ogre. Does this look correct?:

Str 21 -11 = +10 Str
Dex 08 -10 = -2 Dex
Con 15 -11 = +4 Con
Int 06 -10 = -4 Int
Wis 10 -10 = 0
Cha 07 -11 = -4 Cha

Ogre: +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha

[mdt]

reefwood wrote:

James Risner wrote:

Remco Sommeling wrote:

If the monster has an odd score substract 11, if it is even substract 10, if the example has no class levels that will be it's racial modifiers.

The "every 4 HD you get +1 ability" starts after the Racial HD. So a 4 HD race gains it's first +1 to an ability after the 4th Class level (at which point he has 8 HD.)

Is this correct? That monster racial die do not count toward the +1 ability score increase per 4 HD?

I'm trying to figure out the racial ability modifiers for an ogre. Does this look correct?:

Str 21 -11 = +10 Str
Dex 08 -10 = -2 Dex
Con 15 -11 = +4 Con
Int 06 -10 = -4 Int
Wis 10 -10 = 0
Cha 07 -11 = -4 Cha

Ogre: +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha

Yep, looks right. Ogre's don't have class levels in the bestiary (unless I missed something), so the Ogre in the book is an 'average' Ogre. Same as a horse or viper or whatever.

If you make an Ogre NPC with class levels (say Warrior), then you'd probably want to give him the elite array and apply racial modifiers (remembering to up his CR for his class levels). This would likely be the warboss Ogre.

[mdt]

If I were going to set up an Ogre clan for a game, I'd do this...

Ogre Chief
Fighter Class (say 3 levels)
Stats : Elite Array + Racial Mods
CR 5

Ogre Shaman
Adept Class (Say 3 levels)
Stats : Elite Array + Racial Mods
CR 4

Ogre Lieutenant (3)
Warrior Class (Say 3 levels)
Stats : Elite Array + Racial Mods
CR 4 each

Ogre clansmen (20, half female)
Racial Hit Dice Only (Use from book)
CR 3 each

Ogre Kids (8, half female)
Apply 'Young' template and halve HP
CR 1 or 2 each

[reefwood]

mdt wrote:

If I were going to set up an Ogre clan for a game, I'd do this...

Ogre Chief
Fighter Class (say 3 levels)
Stats : Elite Array + Racial Mods
CR 5

Ogre Shaman
Adept Class (Say 3 levels)
Stats : Elite Array + Racial Mods
CR 4

Ogre Lieutenant (3)
Warrior Class (Say 3 levels)
Stats : Elite Array + Racial Mods
CR 4 each

Ogre clansmen (20, half female)
Racial Hit Dice Only (Use from book)
CR 3 each

Ogre Kids (8, half female)
Apply 'Young' template and halve HP
CR 1 or 2 each

Thanks for pointing out to adjust the array when providing class levels. I was totally overlooking that. Although, wouldn't the "NPC class" ogres use the standard array?

[mdt]

reefwood wrote:

Thanks for pointing out to adjust the array when providing class levels. I was totally overlooking that. Although, wouldn't the "NPC class" ogres use the standard array?

Ick,

Sorry, yeah. The NPC classes should have used the Standard Array. :) Got to copy/pasting and forgot to fix that. :)