Celestial Armor
Aura faint transmutation [good]; CL 5th
Slot armor; Price 22,400 gp; Weight 20 lbs.
Description
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that
it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its
presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor
check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%.
It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on
command (as the spell) once per day.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be
good; Cost 11,350 gp
I know Celestial Armor is light armor, but would like an official errata in the downloads so I don't have to argue the semantics of the word Considered. Please just remove the word considered so it says
"It is light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day."
Sorry to drag up a beaten dead horse again. But I play with some real lawyer types and it gets old having to point out simple things.
Celestial Armor
Aura faint transmutation [good]; CL 5th
Slot armor; Price 22,400 gp; Weight 20 lbs.
Description
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that
it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its
presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor
check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%.
It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on
command (as the spell) once per day.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be
good; Cost 11,350 gpI know Celestial Armor is light armor, but would like an official errata in the downloads so I don't have to argue the semantics of the word Considered. Please just remove the word considered so it says
"It is light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day."
Sorry to drag up a beaten dead horse again. But I play with some real lawyer types and it gets old having to point out simple things.
Tell them that there are things known as exceptions to the rules. They occur when a specific entry contradicts a general one. This armor is specifically listed as light. It does not say it is considered as light armor for the purposes of X(like mithral* armor does) which would mean it is medium, but it counts as light armor for other things. The text says it counts as light armor, which means it is light armor.
*Mithral: Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations..
You see how mithral is not really a lighter armor but performs as it for certain purposes. The celestial armor does not have that verbage. It says it is lighter. It can't get any easier than that. Some people are going to read the rules however they want to no matter how they are written, and I don't think errating every rule to be written in legalese is the answer. I would compare the mithral statement to how the celestial armor one, and see what they have to say about that.
Stupid post monster
Anyways I would compare Mithral armor which functions as one category lighter for certain things, but is still in the class of the original armor to the celestial armor which actually says it is considered to be a lighter version of armor and see what they have to say about that.
Mithral: Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations
Errata wont help. Some people want to see things the way they want to see them, and trying to make it impossible will give us a rule book written in legalese. The book says it is considered as light armor. Unless they can come up with a valid argument to show how it only pertains to certain things without wording similar to what mithral does then the onus is on them.
I remember this being specifically discussed during the beta.
The answer is, it's chainmail, so you NEED medium armor proficiency to wear it. If you do not have med. armor prof. you will suffer all the consquences for not having it.
IF you do have med. armor prof. and you wear this chainmail or elven chainmail it is considered light for purposes of concealment, encumberance, armor check penalites etc.
So for example, rogues cant wear it for free, they need to take the proficiency.
I remember this being specifically discussed during the beta.
The answer is, it's chainmail, so you NEED medium armor proficiency to wear it. If you do not have med. armor prof. you will suffer all the consquences for not having it.
IF you do have med. armor prof. and you wear this chainmail or elven chainmail it is considered light for purposes of concealment, encumberance, armor check penalites etc.
So for example, rogues cant wear it for free, they need to take the proficiency.
might have been like that in betta but not any longer. elvin chainmail and celestial armo are treated as light armor period. which means you only need light proficiency to were them. mithral medium armor is considered one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. it is NOT considered light armor for profiency. thats why there is no errata required for celestial armor- the wording is correct and it does what it says
might have been like that in betta but not any longer. elvin chainmail and celestial armo are treated as light armor period. which means you only need light proficiency to were them. mithral medium armor is considered one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. it is NOT considered light armor for profiency. thats why there is no errata required for celestial armor- the wording is correct and it does what it saysI remember this being specifically discussed during the beta.
The answer is, it's chainmail, so you NEED medium armor proficiency to wear it. If you do not have med. armor prof. you will suffer all the consquences for not having it.
IF you do have med. armor prof. and you wear this chainmail or elven chainmail it is considered light for purposes of concealment, encumberance, armor check penalites etc.
So for example, rogues cant wear it for free, they need to take the proficiency.
No, what they decided was that it required the medium proficiency, it came up during beta which way to go with it. the end result is chain mail is chain mail and requires medium proficiency.
OTHERWISE the wording would say celestial/elven chain IS light armor.Edit:PRD: Mithral
Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.
Hence why the celestial entry says it is 'considered'. You still need the proficiency. The devs did not want to give away a free proficiency with a magic item, hence why it is the way it is.
No, what they decided was that it required the medium proficiency, it came up during beta which way to go with it. the end result is chain mail is chain mail and requires medium proficiency.
OTHERWISE the wording would say celestial/elven chain IS light armor.
It's fortunate, then that it TOTALLY DOES!
Why are we shouting, anyway?
Elven ChainAura no aura (nonmagical); CL —
Slot armor; Price 5,150 gp; Weight 20 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of –2.
Mithral full plate of speed states: "It is considered medium armour, except that you must be proficient in heavy armour to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties."
Celestial armour is considered light armour. Doesn't say that it's considered light armour only for certain things. It's light armour, period. That's how the game works. Mithral might have a rule that it's not really light, but celestial armour is not mithral.
Jason B. specifically stated he did not want to make magic items give away feats.
The whole mess of mithral armor, elven chain armor, celestial armor is, well a mess, especially when they are deriving from the same original DnD item.
Jason B. specifically stated he did not want to make magic items give away feats.
The whole mess of mithral armor, elven chain armor, celestial armor is, well a mess, especially when they are deriving from the same original DnD item.
James J specifically said that Elven Chain is a specific armor that does not follow the normal rules, and that was why it's text is the way it is.
James J specifically said that Elven Chain is a specific armor that does not follow the normal rules, and that was why it's text is the way it is.Jason B. specifically stated he did not want to make magic items give away feats.
The whole mess of mithral armor, elven chain armor, celestial armor is, well a mess, especially when they are deriving from the same original DnD item.
And celestial??
And celestial??James J specifically said that Elven Chain is a specific armor that does not follow the normal rules, and that was why it's text is the way it is.Jason B. specifically stated he did not want to make magic items give away feats.
The whole mess of mithral armor, elven chain armor, celestial armor is, well a mess, especially when they are deriving from the same original DnD item.
No errata needed.Mithral chainmail and elven chainmail are different things, is all. This appeals to me because that gives elven chainmal a REASON to be called out as a specific type of armor, after all...
With regards to celestial...
In any event, celestial armor isn't an armor quality. It's a unique kind of armor, and thus has a unique pricing. It does weird stuff; it's really light, it's made of gold, it's REALLY nice looking, it lets you fly, and so on. Its pricing is a result of ALL of these elements, and that's pretty much that.
He doesn't specifically address the light issue in that post, but he does say 'it's really light' and that goes into the cost, so I'd say it's the same as elven chain, for the reasons he put into the post about elven chain.
Original thread here.
eh we never use it anyway... Hate flying armor. Hate flying really, Game gets crazy broken when there is too much flying.
eh we never use it anyway... Hate flying armor. Hate flying really, Game gets crazy broken when there is too much flying.
I tend to prefer non-fighter types, so light armor is usually something I like. In my current game, I'd like to get Elven Chain now, and eventually Celestial Armor.
eh we never use it anyway... Hate flying armor. Hate flying really, Game gets crazy broken when there is too much flying.I tend to prefer non-fighter types, so light armor is usually something I like. In my current game, I'd like to get Elven Chain now, and eventually Celestial Armor.
Curiously, the origin of all three armor types is tolkien.
Bilbo/frodos mithral shirt.
Now, The mithral shirt can be worn undetected under normal clothing (a trait only specifically mentioned in the wording of the celestial armor) according to tolkien. But that has morphed into three different armors.
Mithral (stage 1) that acts as light but needs the med prof.
Elven Chain (stage 2) that is medium armor that magically (?) becomes light but confers no magical (+1 etc) benefits.
and Celestial (stage 3) that, well what does it really do? Over and above elf chain? Can be worn under clothing undetected?
So if you had +3 Elven Chainmail of flying, the only was celestial would be better is that you can wear it under clothes and Elven chain you cannot?
I still think the three armors are a mess.
What you have is :
Mithral can be added to any metal armor, makes it one category lighter, but doesn't change proficiency.
Elven Chainmail is a special type of chainmail that can only be made out of mithral. It's non-magical, so can be enchanted normally (it's automatically masterwork, as it's made out of mithral).
Celestial Armor is a specific type of armor. It can't be enchanted any further. It can, however, be worn under clothes and is undetectable.
I would say that Celestial Armor is more likely made out of gold fleece (from greek myth) or silver fleece (a made up equivalent). I'm actually seeing it more as gold/silver thread spun into twine and then woven into chainmail.
What you have is :
Mithral can be added to any metal armor, makes it one category lighter, but doesn't change proficiency.
Elven Chainmail is a special type of chainmail that can only be made out of mithral. It's non-magical, so can be enchanted normally (it's automatically masterwork, as it's made out of mithral).
Celestial Armor is a specific type of armor. It can't be enchanted any further. It can, however, be worn under clothes and is undetectable.
I would say that Celestial Armor is more likely made out of gold fleece (from greek myth) or silver fleece (a made up equivalent). I'm actually seeing it more as gold/silver thread spun into twine and then woven into chainmail.
So no elven plate mail hmmmm?
So no elven plate mail hmmmm?What you have is :
Mithral can be added to any metal armor, makes it one category lighter, but doesn't change proficiency.
Elven Chainmail is a special type of chainmail that can only be made out of mithral. It's non-magical, so can be enchanted normally (it's automatically masterwork, as it's made out of mithral).
Celestial Armor is a specific type of armor. It can't be enchanted any further. It can, however, be worn under clothes and is undetectable.
I would say that Celestial Armor is more likely made out of gold fleece (from greek myth) or silver fleece (a made up equivalent). I'm actually seeing it more as gold/silver thread spun into twine and then woven into chainmail.
Dwarves usually get Dwarven Plate instead of elves. Elves aren't exactly known for walking around in plate mail. :)
whats my elven magus supposed to do once he can cast in heavy armor?
Im going straight to the government in kyonin about this!
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It is considered light armor
"It is light armor and
I don't understand your complaint?
You want to be less clear?You want it to say it is light when clearly the armor is medium armor?
You need the "considered light" phrase to make it clear that while the armor is normally not light, this version is indeed considered light.
Ok I stink at linking past forum posts But J.J did state that Celestial armor can be used for characters with Light armor Prof. What I'm trying to get at is to make it clearer in its descriptions because alot of people get hung up on the fact its chainmail. And also start pointing out the rules on Mithril (When the armor itself is made from silver and gold and not mithril). Even though it states it is considered light armor. I think the line from Elven chainmail would work great.
"This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency."
Would be a better way to state it. Sorry if I confused some of the people that replied so far.
might have been like that in betta but not any longer. elvin chainmail and celestial armo are treated as light armor period. which means you only need light proficiency to were them. mithral medium armor is considered one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. it is NOT considered light armor for profiency. thats why there is no errata required for celestial armor- the wording is correct and it does what it saysI remember this being specifically discussed during the beta.
The answer is, it's chainmail, so you NEED medium armor proficiency to wear it. If you do not have med. armor prof. you will suffer all the consquences for not having it.
IF you do have med. armor prof. and you wear this chainmail or elven chainmail it is considered light for purposes of concealment, encumberance, armor check penalites etc.
So for example, rogues cant wear it for free, they need to take the proficiency.
No, what they decided was that it required the medium proficiency, it came up during beta which way to go with it. the end result is chain mail is chain mail and requires medium proficiency.
OTHERWISE the wording would say celestial/elven chain IS light armor.Edit:PRD: Mithral
Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.Hence why the celestial entry says it is 'considered'. You still need the proficiency. The devs did not want to give away a free proficiency with a magic item, hence why it is the way it is.
No i was correct in my statement. if you want to houserule that celestial armor needs medium proficiency then do so but per raw it does not. to reinforce this.
James Jacobs (Creative Director), Sat, Mar 20, 2010, 01:40 PM
Zark wrote:
Thanks James!
Does this mean you don't have do be proficient in medium armor to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties when using Celestial Armor?
Thanks again for the quick answer and the clarification. Have a nice weekend. :-)
"Nah; celestial armor only requires light armor proficiency to avoid the penalties. It's a pretty solid armor choice for bards or rogues as a result."
clestial armor IS treated as light armor the same as elvin chain, it's not because of what there made out of however its because thats what those specific armors do in addition to other things.
and yes you certainly can add additional properties to specific magic items. it's wouldn't be considered that specific magic item any more it would be an altered version. but what you call it is fluff anyways. if you want to upgrade celestial armor to +5 by all means...
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+3 Celestial Chainmail.
Chainmail 150
Masterwork 150
Fly from scroll 450
Mithral 4000
celestial 8650
It isn't Mithril, but I get why you added that cost.
The MW and Mithril would be merged prices (3850 + 150 MW = 4000 mithril)The Fly scroll would be a 1/day (3*5*1800/5) = 5400 gp in value if not inflated like most fly effects are
+3 Celestial Chainmail.
Chainmail 150
Masterwork 150
Fly from scroll 450
Mithral 4000
celestial 8650It isn't Mithril, but I get why you added that cost.
The MW and Mithril would be merged prices (3850 + 150 MW = 4000 mithril)
The Fly scroll would be a 1/day (3*5*1800/5) = 5400 gp in value if not inflated like most fly effects are
Yeah, should be 8100. Mainly due to the 'multiple dissimilar effects on same item on body' rule. The armor takes up the armor slot, and is enchanted for AC enhancement (effect 1). The fly is a different effect. It gets hit by the +50%.
Jason B. specifically stated he did not want to make magic items give away feats.
But what he wants and what several pre-existing SRD magic items (that weren't removed from Pathfinder, presumably for compatability reasons) actually do are two different things.
Exhibit B: Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone.