Came across the spell threefold aspect and it looks pretty sweet. Question is can you consider the atribute bonuses permanent ?
Since it lasts 24hours you can effectively keep recasting the spell before it wears off so the bonuses are "always on" (or memorise 2 of the spell/day if you don't conisder the overlap possible)
if you choose the elder form your sitting on a +4 INT/WIS which is pretty damn awsome at 7th level considering it would tide you over until you can find/afford a +6 INT headband.
If you can consider the bonuses permanent then the +4 INT/WIS is going to get you bonuses spells.
If you shift ages to change the bonuses then the bonus spells become unavailable until you change back into the old form.
As an RP segway the only downside is appearing as an old crone to keep the bonuses but if you went for the witch's disguise hex then for 7 hours a day you can disguise yourself as your younger self, an illusion on top of an illusion.
Finally you can threefold your Familiar to give it some variable always on bonuses as well
Bonuses aside playing a character thats forever age shifting and has a familiar that does the same could be a hell of a lot of fun
Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
By RAW, no, this trick does not work. It's a little pedantic, but the rules specify that durations of "1 day or less" result in temporary bonuses. It has to last longer than 1 day. You'd have to extend the spell (duration 48 hours) for it to work. Heck, if you could make it last a single round longer than 24 hours (24.0000694 hours), it'd work.
Also, Threefold Aspect is a transmutation effect, not an illusion, so stacking a Disguise spell on top is perfectly fine. I was going to argue that putting an illusion over an illusion might not be legal, but you run into no problems putting an illusion over a transmutation.
Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
By RAW, no, this trick does not work. It's a little pedantic, but the rules specify that durations of "1 day or less" result in temporary bonuses. It has to last longer than 1 day. You'd have to extend the spell (duration 48 hours) for it to work. Heck, if you could make it last a single round longer than 24 hours (24.0000694 hours), it'd work.
Also, Threefold Aspect is a transmutation effect, not an illusion, so stacking a Disguise spell on top is perfectly fine. I was going to argue that putting an illusion over an illusion might not be legal, but you run into no problems putting an illusion over a transmutation.
That's not too bad, either costs a feat and raises the spell to a 5th level spell or purchase/craft yourself a metamagic rod extend for 11'000gold although that's half your gold at 7th level , still a hell of alot cheaper than a 40'000gold +4 INT/WIS headband.
acutally when you think about it the spell pays for itself the +4 INT will get you a bonus 5th level spell which you've used to get the permanent bonus in the first place.
and the +4 INT increases the DC on your Hex's by 2 which at 7th level is significant.
and being able to swap your familair between +4INT smart and +2DEX/+2CON tougher is rather nice as well
Well it depends. It'll cost you 5 gp a casting. So at that rate, you're better off trying to buy the headband, unless you see yourself playing for longer than 12000 days.
Its an F not an M
i.e. the 5gp silver cresent is a Focus so you do not expend it.
and might make a nice RP necklace which is always worn ;)
Looks like a nice trick.
You can technically also abuse the INT bonus giving you more skill points.
A magic item is locked to specific skill ranks when it gives you an INT bonus.
Since this is a castable spell, you can declare that you "reset" and 24 hours later you get 2 ranks pr. level of skill points you can place as needed for your immediate future.
Sweet indeed.
Looks like a nice trick.
You can technically also abuse the INT bonus giving you more skill points.
A magic item is locked to specific skill ranks when it gives you an INT bonus.
Since this is a castable spell, you can declare that you "reset" and 24 hours later you get 2 ranks pr. level of skill points you can place as needed for your immediate future.
Sweet indeed.
Nice I didn't even conisder that, max out 2 skills almost on the fly, TAKE THAT skill monkey rogue !
heh dump into linguistics for a bunch of languages
dump into swim or climb if you know terrain in advance
dump into appriase before going to the market ;)
dump into UMD if you find a particulary nice magic item you can't use.
very cool
Here's the deal on skill points though. Yes, after the first 24 hours, you would gain (Level)*2 skill points (to allocate as you see fit, no less). However, those skill would only last for the second 24 hours of the spell duration.
Since there is no mechanic to cast the spell again to extend its duration, a second casting of the spell is considered temporary again for the next 24 hours, and then permanent for the next 24.
So, the skills and bonus spells and such that you gain from the bonus being permanent on the second day go away at the end of that day and are gone for the next 24 hours. So, every other day, you would gain extra skill points and spell slots (and boost save DCs). So it's not really "on the fly" but more "with about 24 hours notice".
As a GM, applying a houserule at my table, I'd make my player "encode" skill ranks into the form, the same as the headband does. It prevents abuse and constantly re-writing his character sheet. I'd probably also ignore the RAW that says he only gets the bonus every other day, and just make him expend the spell slot. Mind you, those are both houserules and not RAW.
Why grant skill points at all? The advantages the spell gives to attributes and spellcasting are reward enough for this spell. What's being proposed is clearly not within the RAI for the spell..
As a GM, applying a houserule at my table, I'd make my player "encode" skill ranks into the form, the same as the headband does. It prevents abuse and constantly re-writing his character sheet. I'd probably also ignore the RAW that says he only gets the bonus every other day, and just make him expend the spell slot. Mind you, those are both houserules and not RAW.
This is the Rules forum.
I believe it is here to establish RAW and then, once that is in place, add RAI to solve the places that need adjustment. Jumping straight to RAI or "NerfMode" is not the purpose of this forum.
IMHO.
Actually the RAW about permanent bonuses does not mention the method used to gain them at all.
It only refers to the resulting ability bonus. If the ability bonus is maintained, regardless of source, for more than 24 hours, then the bonus is permanent "enough" for the purposes of RAW.
The spell or effect giving the ability points does not have to specify that if INT is the attribute granted, then you get x and Y skill. - The ability to gain ranks is defined as a consequence of having a permanently higher INT.
That criteria is met.
Cheesy, maybe.
You can get any number of +2 INT headbands, each attuned to a specific skill for the "relatively" low cost of 4.000 gp. If you wear it then 24 hours later, you get that skill.
Once the economy of a game gets to a certain point, having a few vital headbands is trivial. Fx the skills required for Item Crafting. That would quickly earn back the value of the headbands.
This spell trick is just a cheaper way of doing it. It doesn't get the user more class skills and certainly has a serious set-up time that makes it unfeasible to "flex out" mid-dungeon.
It doesn't make the character more powerful in combat, but it may provide a richer and more quirky character development.
The character will not be able to outshine anyone else in the party, who really dedicates to a certain skill, so it doesn't really steal thunder either.
So... Why bother banning it instead of enjoying it?
ran some numbers quite easy to 25-26INT using this by 8th level.
+7-8 on all your spell and Hex DC's yes plz :) means you Hex's are running at 21-22DC at 8th.
very tasty. dosen't acutally help long term though as evenutally you'll want a +6 INT headband that will overide this bonus.
So its basically a midlevel buff that will push your DC higher quicker , but it'll even out by the mid teens as you get a +6 main stat buff like everyone else.
strictly speaking by 8th you'd have a +2 headband so at best it give you an extra +1 DC several levels before you could otherwise have it. the +2 will bonus is nice but its you best save already anyway.
Unless your in a low magic item campagin in which case its a godsend.
Why grant skill points at all? The advantages the spell gives to attributes and spellcasting are reward enough for this spell. What's being proposed is clearly not within the RAI for the spell..
As a GM, applying a houserule at my table, I'd make my player "encode" skill ranks into the form, the same as the headband does. It prevents abuse and constantly re-writing his character sheet. I'd probably also ignore the RAW that says he only gets the bonus every other day, and just make him expend the spell slot. Mind you, those are both houserules and not RAW.
Xraal already covered why I am defending the use of this spell this way by RAW, since this is a rules forum. I added how I would handle it at my table indicating what I'd let a player do with the spell. If I had a player who wanted to essentially use this as a replacement for a headband of INT/WIS (with a penalty to STR and DEX), I'd reward him for the creativity and ingenuity. I'd make him role play it and I'd also place the mentioned limitations/simplifications on it. Since he's basically using his higher level spell slots to replace a piece of gear, it's not unreasonable. I'd just make it function like the piece of gear it was emulating. So, because it become a permanent boost to intelligence after 24 hours, it grants skill points, just like a headband of vast intellect. Like the headband, I'd make the player choose the skills he gains from the boosted INT and make him stick with those for as long as he wanted to use the spell like that. Basically, he'd have to pick a unique form to transmute himself into, since the spell specifically calls out that it's you, just older. It's not a polymorph spell, where you become someone or something else, you just become an older version of you.
I'd also allow the player to essentially "refresh" the spell. I'd probably make him cast the spell every day and let the two castings overlap. Essentially it'd work like this: Casting 1 is temporary for the first 24 hours and then becomes permanent. Casting 2 is cast 24 hours after Casting 1, giving two overlapping sets of bonuses (one permanent, one temporary) and the player chooses to keep the permanent bonus, since it is more advantageous. Casting 1 expires, Casting 2 becomes permanent and the player goes for Casting 3. Ad infinium.
As mentioned above, the spell really only grants a +1 DC over what an expected player would have at this level, and maybe an extra spell slot or two. In exchange they have to expend a higher level spell slot every day, take a penalty to AC, Reflex saves, initiative, a double penalty to CMD, and I'd likely scrutinize a little more closely their encumbrance and such - especially if it took them into having a negative modifier.
All that said, I tend to play in higher powered games, so this doesn't bother me. We tend to have very high fantasy with moderately high magic. In a low magic setting or in a much grittier world, I might not allow it. I'd probably not allow full casters at all, in fact. But that's not the point. The OP asked if his idea would work by RAW, I explained how it could and the ramifications thereof and then tossed in a little aside (in case the OP was a GM and could make such decisions) about how I would run it at my table to simplify things.