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Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
Would this allow a fighter to make all his normal attacks with his shield and also make his additional TWF attacks with his shield?
Nope. One weapon is the primary weapon, and the other is the secondary weapon. TWF specifically requires you to use two weapons. While you can attack as you want during a normal full round attacking switching between the shield and sword, you would need specific verbage saying that you are allowed to override the TWF fighting style while using it in order to only use one weapon. No such verbiage is mentioned that pertains to TWF.
PS:I hope that made sense.
Flurry of Blows states that it can't be used with TWF, Shield Fighter doesn't.
Well as I think the FoB parallel is quite right. A shield fighter has the same opportunity to choose between attacks on a full attack.
However there has been a lot of discussion about the monk as well, whether he is able to make all of his attacks with one weapon, or has to use at least two (with a least one attack with one of them). For the monk this discussion has been increasingly important with the brass knuckles.
I personally lean towards allowing just using the one weapon (or shield in this case), but there can't be given any definite answer to your question.
Flurry of Blows states that it can't be used with TWF, Shield Fighter doesn't.
My point is that TWF requires two weapons, and the shield ability does not allow you to get around that. All it allows you to do is use two weapons when not TWF'ing.
A regular full round attack which is what the shield abilty is referring to is not the same as a full round with TWF since it has its own special rules.
FoB had to have that there since it states that it is copying the TWF penalties. If it was not there people would try to game the system to TWF when they are already TWF'ing.
Two-Weapon FightingIf you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon...
There is nothing in the shield ability that gets around the two weapon restriction for TWF.
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Flurry of Blows states that it can't be used with TWF, Shield Fighter doesn't.My point is that TWF requires two weapons, and the shield ability does not allow you to get around that. All it allows you to do is use two weapons when not TWF'ing.
A regular full round attack which is what the shield abilty is referring to is not the same as a full round with TWF since it has its own special rules.
FoB had to have that there since it states that it is copying the TWF penalties. If it was not there people would try to game the system to TWF when they are already TWF'ing.There is nothing in the shield ability that gets around the two weapon restriction for TWF.
Two-Weapon FightingIf you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon...
TWF just states that you get an additional attack with your offhand weapon, you don't need to attack with your main hand.
And a character who just makes a lot of shield attacks with one shield is much less ridiculous than a character wielding two shields.
Flurry of Blows states that it can't be used with TWF, Shield Fighter doesn't.My point is that TWF requires two weapons, and the shield ability does not allow you to get around that. All it allows you to do is use two weapons when not TWF'ing.
A regular full round attack which is what the shield abilty is referring to is not the same as a full round with TWF since it has its own special rules.
FoB had to have that there since it states that it is copying the TWF penalties. If it was not there people would try to game the system to TWF when they are already TWF'ing.There is nothing in the shield ability that gets around the two weapon restriction for TWF.
Two-Weapon FightingIf you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon...
TWF just states that you get an additional attack with your offhand weapon, you don't need to attack with your main hand.
And a character who just makes a lot of shield attacks with one shield is much less ridiculous than a character wielding two shields.
You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.
-------------------------------------------------------------The above sentence which is also from the PRD shows the intention of you having to fight with two different weapons using a primary and an off hand.
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Flurry of Blows states that it can't be used with TWF, Shield Fighter doesn't.My point is that TWF requires two weapons, and the shield ability does not allow you to get around that. All it allows you to do is use two weapons when not TWF'ing.
A regular full round attack which is what the shield abilty is referring to is not the same as a full round with TWF since it has its own special rules.
FoB had to have that there since it states that it is copying the TWF penalties. If it was not there people would try to game the system to TWF when they are already TWF'ing.There is nothing in the shield ability that gets around the two weapon restriction for TWF.
Two-Weapon FightingIf you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon...
TWF just states that you get an additional attack with your offhand weapon, you don't need to attack with your main hand.
And a character who just makes a lot of shield attacks with one shield is much less ridiculous than a character wielding two shields.
You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.
-------------------------------------------------------------The above sentence which is also from the PRD shows the intention of you having to fight with two different weapons using a primary and an off hand.
Well, you are certainly allowed to forfeit your attack with the main hand and just attack with your off-hand (with a -10 penalty).
And the character would have a primary weapon, he just won't use it.
Flurry of Blows states that it can't be used with TWF, Shield Fighter doesn't.My point is that TWF requires two weapons, and the shield ability does not allow you to get around that. All it allows you to do is use two weapons when not TWF'ing.
A regular full round attack which is what the shield abilty is referring to is not the same as a full round with TWF since it has its own special rules.
FoB had to have that there since it states that it is copying the TWF penalties. If it was not there people would try to game the system to TWF when they are already TWF'ing.There is nothing in the shield ability that gets around the two weapon restriction for TWF.
Two-Weapon FightingIf you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon...
TWF just states that you get an additional attack with your offhand weapon, you don't need to attack with your main hand.
And a character who just makes a lot of shield attacks with one shield is much less ridiculous than a character wielding two shields.
You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.
-------------------------------------------------------------The above sentence which is also from the PRD shows the intention of you having to fight with two different weapons using a primary and an off hand.
Well, you are certainly allowed to forfeit your attack with the main hand and just attack with your off-hand (with a -10 penalty).
And the character would have a primary weapon, he just won't use it.
If you are TWF'ing then you have to use both weapons, and both hands. If not you then you are just making an ordinary full attack action, and in that case this entire debate is moot. There is no such thing as a TWF attack with only one weapon.
Why would you give up the primary attacks anyway when that is where most of the attacks, the most accurate attacks, and the most damage comes from?
edit:Weapons are better than shields as primary weapons anyway so why would you even want to ignore your primary weapon?
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Mechanics aside, a round is about 6 seconds. Try punching the air and see how many punches you can do in 6 seconds. More than 2, right? So a full-attack means that you use your 6 seconds only on attacking, but also small movements, ducking, feinting, countering etc etc, as anyone with a martial arts background will confirm.
So, the number of attacks only signifies the significant blows struck, and with that interpretation it is not unreasonable to suggest that all your attacks could be made with the same hand. After all, compare swinging an empty hand with swinging a heavy 2H-sword and it should be fairly obvious that you could probably get off one more punch than the 2H-sword wielding fighter in the same time, which is really what FoB is...
Don't know if it's RAW or RAI or anything else, but my version of common sense. Anyway, continue discussion; :)
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There are several benefits of using only the shield as a weapon:
- No penalties for TWF after level 11
- Higher AC
- Cheaper Magic Weapon after level 11
- Free Bullrush attempts
- Free attacks with critical hits (while the shields threat range would limit the chance of critical hits, the possibility of infinite attacks is still nice)
And of course the usual boon of focusing feats like Weapon Specialization into one weapon.
Mechanics aside, a round is about 6 seconds. Try punching the air and see how many punches you can do in 6 seconds. More than 2, right? So a full-attack means that you use your 6 seconds only on attacking, but also small movements, ducking, feinting, countering etc etc, as anyone with a martial arts background will confirm.
So, the number of attacks only signifies the significant blows struck, and with that interpretation it is not unreasonable to suggest that all your attacks could be made with the same hand. After all, compare swinging an empty hand with swinging a heavy 2H-sword and it should be fairly obvious that you could probably get off one more punch than the 2H-sword wielding fighter in the same time, which is really what FoB is...
Don't know if it's RAW or RAI or anything else, but my version of common sense. Anyway, continue discussion; :)
This is a rules discussion, and the OP asked for the rules, not how abstraction plays into the game. Since everyone can fluff their abstraction differently it is a bad place to start a basis for rules on.
The number of attacks signifies the number of possible blows that you can possibly land. In real life you can get more swings with an empty hand, and 2nd edition had a mechanic for that. 3.x and Pathfinder got rid of that mechanic for ease of play, and it is not RAW or RAI. You can't use real life to argue rules since the game has its rules on how things work.Example:As big as some of those monsters are there is no way a shield or your armor is really going to protect you from some of their blows.
PS: I am not being snarky, but rules forum here is for discussing things as they should be by the book. Since I have quiet a few house rules myself I am more than willing to discuss house-rules with the OP in another sub-forum and help them realize the concept they are trying to achieve. :)
Flurry of Blows states that it can't be used with TWF, Shield Fighter doesn't.My point is that TWF requires two weapons, and the shield ability does not allow you to get around that. All it allows you to do is use two weapons when not TWF'ing.
A regular full round attack which is what the shield abilty is referring to is not the same as a full round with TWF since it has its own special rules.
FoB had to have that there since it states that it is copying the TWF penalties. If it was not there people would try to game the system to TWF when they are already TWF'ing.There is nothing in the shield ability that gets around the two weapon restriction for TWF.
Two-Weapon FightingIf you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon...
I disagree on your attempt to make a difference between a full round attack with or without two-weapon fighting.
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
A full round attack is plain and simple a full round action, where you are allowed to make several attacks based on your base attack, and other abilities such as natural weapons or multiple weapons.
Two weapon fighting allows you to make the extra attack at a lesser penalty, or in the case of improved and greater making more attacks than usual, but it is all while making a regular full attack.If two-weapon fighting should be regarded as anything special, it should be worded like a charge, namely that it is a special full round action.
This is highly relevant when considering the shield fighter ability. It does specify that you can choose whether to use you weapon or your shield for each attack. Having more attacks (that are specifically for your shield) doesn't affect the ability to choose which weapon to use.
A full round attack is plain and simple a full round action, where you are allowed to make several attacks based on your base attack, and other abilities such as natural weapons or multiple weapons.
Two weapon fighting allows you to make the extra attack at a lesser penalty, or in the case of improved and greater making more attacks than usual, but it is all while making a regular full attack.If two-weapon fighting should be regarded as anything special, it should be worded like a charge, namely that it is a special full round action.
This is highly relevant when considering the shield fighter ability. It does specify that you can choose whether to use you weapon or your shield for each attack. Having more attacks (that are specifically for your shield) doesn't affect the ability to choose which weapon to use.
Well I did notice you did not address the rest of my post that quoted TWF, which calls out using a primary and secondary weapon, which in other words is two weapons.
Example:Swing a weapon two-handed requires two hands, so unless a rule specifically says I don't have to use 2 hands anymore don't I still have to use two hands?
To follow that if TWF says I get extra attacks by using my offhand if it wields a 2nd weapon. No second weapon, no extra attacks.
There are several benefits of using only the shield as a weapon:
- No penalties for TWF after level 11
- Higher AC
- Cheaper Magic Weapon after level 11
- Free Bullrush attempts
- Free attacks with critical hits (while the shields threat range would limit the chance of critical hits, the possibility of infinite attacks is still nice)And of course the usual boon of focusing feats like Weapon Specialization into one weapon.
With the first post I thought you were asking could you have the shield out and only the shield out, and just switch it from hand to hand to TWF with it? If that is the case I misunderstood, and I would say that you can TWF with 2 shield.
Your AC won't be any higher than it would with 2 shields than it would with one though. Most monsters at high levels have rediculously high CMD's and those bull rushes will fail. There are no infinite attacks. There is currently a thread on that now, and no DM would allow it in a game even if such a loophole did exist, or he would just use it against the players with a big smirk on his face.
PS:No DM in the case of the infinite attack thing means 99%.
edit:I take the infinite statement back to an extent. The chances of it really happening are astronomically small so it is still a non-issue.
Well I did notice you did not address the rest of my post that quoted TWF, which calls out using a primary and secondary weapon, which in other words is two weapons.Example:Swing a weapon two-handed requires two hands, so unless a rule specifically says I don't have to use 2 hands anymore don't I still have to use two hands?
To follow that if TWF says I get extra attacks by using my offhand if it wields a 2nd weapon. No second weapon, no extra attacks.
The issue that I have been raising is not, that he doesn't have to wield two weapons, which is a necessity.
But the question is whether he can make all of his attacks with his off-hand shield. That seems to be the case for the shielded fighter.
Well I did notice you did not address the rest of my post that quoted TWF, which calls out using a primary and secondary weapon, which in other words is two weapons.Example:Swing a weapon two-handed requires two hands, so unless a rule specifically says I don't have to use 2 hands anymore don't I still have to use two hands?
To follow that if TWF says I get extra attacks by using my offhand if it wields a 2nd weapon. No second weapon, no extra attacks.
The issue that I have been raising is not, that he doesn't have to wield two weapons, which is a necessity.
But the question is whether he can make all of his attacks with his off-hand shield. That seems to be the case for the shielded fighter.
The TWF rules state that you get must use the primary and off hands when TWF'ing. Nothing in the shield fighter over rules that. Now if the OP wants to use a shield in both hand that is different.
Non-TWF'ing full round attacks don't state which hand has to be used, and that is why you have to consider the TWF specifics on the issue. You can't really two weapon fight with only one weapon.
Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
This is pretty cut and dry to me. A full attack action can be used normally or with the Two-Weapon Fighting rules subset. As a shielded fighter you make a full round attack with both your shield(OH) and your primary weapon(MH). This is the standard rules. Now along comes an exception in the bolded section of the quotes above. Since, Two-Weapon Fighting is only a caveat under the Full-Round Attack rules this special rule applies on top of it and provides an exception to the above quoted Two-Weapon Fighting rules. In other words, You are attacking with a MH and an OH weapon initially and then using your special rule to substitute your MH attacks with Shield Attacks. I am pretty certain in general special rules text trumps, standard rules text.
For example, dismissing a spell is a standard action according to the magic rules. If a spell says you can dismiss as a free, swift, or move action then the text trumps the general rule.
In the OP case, the special text already includes the possibility of applying this to Two-Weapon Fighting in stating "With a full attack action," (Full attack actions include Two-Weapon Fighting).
Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.This is pretty cut and dry to me. A full attack action can be used normally or with the Two-Weapon Fighting rules subset. As a shielded fighter you make a full round attack with both your shield(OH) and your primary weapon(MH). This is the standard rules. Now along comes an exception in the bolded section of the quotes above. Since, Two-Weapon Fighting is only a caveat under the Full-Round Attack rules this special rule applies on top of it and provides an exception to the above quoted Two-Weapon Fighting rules. In other words, You are attacking with a MH and an OH weapon initially and then using your special rule to substitute your MH attacks with Shield Attacks. I am pretty certain in general special rules text trumps, standard rules text.
For example, dismissing a spell is a standard action according to the magic rules. If a spell says you can dismiss as a free, swift, or move action then the text trumps the general rule.
In the OP case, the special text already includes the possibility of applying this to Two-Weapon Fighting in stating "With a full attack action," (Full attack actions include Two-Weapon Fighting).
I think the intent was not for TWF, but you do have a point and it may be legal by RAW. In any event I don't think it is game breaking. I would let a player do it, but warn them that another DM may not allow it, like I always do with questionable rules.
I have a feeling that there is a lot of RAI going on in a lot of the the replies above.
As I read and interpret the rule, it is referring to iterative BAB attacks alone.
So, assuming you have a BAB high enough to give you three iterative attacks, you can chose to make any of them with your shield or alternately your main weapon.
If you also have Two Weapon Fighting, you can then proceed to make off-hand attacks with normal off-hand attack penalties. - And of course your main iteration attacks would also have to suffer the -2 for doing this.
In effect, if you want to use only your shield in a given round, and that you wield a primary weapon in your "main hand", you could use the Shield Fighter rules to attack with your shield with your primary and iterative attacks, as if it was a main hand weapon. - And then use it again for your off-hand attacks.
Also, I am not sure why you think the shield will be cheaper to enchant as a weapon? - You have to have a spiked shield to enchant it as a weapon at all, and this is in addition to the protective enhancement bonus you might place on your shield.
In effect the weaponized shield is both a weapon and a shield, enchanted separately and taking up the same slot.
I have a question about the ability altogether.
I read it that I can have both a shield and a sword equipped and attack with either as if they were in the main hand. Meaning I get my full attack bonus to hitting with either weapon and get full damage with either weapon I use?
So example:
Let's say I am 5th lvl
Long sword +10 1D8+7
Heavy shield +10 1D4+6
If I'm a standard fighter would look like this (TWF)
Long sword +6 1D8+7
Heavy shield +5 1D4+3
(I may be off a number of 2, still learning all the penalties and all)
But if I'm a shielded fighter without TWF it would like:
Long sword +10 1D8+7
Heavy shield +10 1D4+6
Right?