I just got off the phone with one of my regular players, and we had an in depth (yes we're nerds of the machine) discussion about the differences between "old school" "new school" "role players vs. roll players" and RPG elitists vs. mmorpg fodder. At the end of the conversation we decided that since the hobby we love brings all kinds out of the "woodwork." We should be happy with everyone that is playing; however, after all was said and done we agreed that there's a certain part of us that believes the newer "toon" creating element, doesn't have the same respect for the hobby that we believe we do. Take that for what you will, maybe I think a certain amount of elitism is due to those RPers that have been playing pen and paper first and foremost for the past twenty or so years. Flame war, begin!
I remember a similar conversation thirty some years ago. We thought the newblets then were bad for us true roleplayers. Turns out they are oldbies now like the rest of us. Much like anything, there are those that embrace change, and those that don't. I often switch camps every five years or so.
Greg
Umm, I dont understand, there was an 'old school' crowd or RPers THIRTY years ago? What were you role playing at? Macbeth?
Umm, I dont understand, there was an 'old school' crowd or RPers THIRTY years ago? What were you role playing at? Macbeth?
The first RPG I owned was Traveler in the seventies. I started playing DnD fall of seventy nine.
Greg
EDIT: oh, and I was a latecomer to the campus club that played DnD
Umm, I dont understand, there was an 'old school' crowd or RPers THIRTY years ago? What were you role playing at? Macbeth?
Yeah, we were. "When thou would, thou were't a man." Got a problem with it?
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Umm, I dont understand, there was an 'old school' crowd or RPers THIRTY years ago? What were you role playing at? Macbeth?
OD&D: 1974
Holmes Basic: 1978AD&D: 1978-1979
Moldvay Basic: 1981
So, yeah thirty years ago there were already four versions of D&D alone to squabble over, let alone other TSR games, Game Designer's Workshop, FGU, and Chaosium. I'm sure there's more, but that's off the top of my head.
Umm, I dont understand, there was an 'old school' crowd or RPers THIRTY years ago? What were you role playing at? Macbeth?OD&D: 1974
Holmes Basic: 1978
AD&D: 1978-1979
Moldvay Basic: 1981So, yeah thirty years ago there were already four versions of D&D alone to squabble over, let alone other TSR games, Game Designer's Workshop, FGU, and Chaosium. I'm sure there's more, but that's off the top of my head.
true enough but the "old schoolers" of that era were Miniatures Wargamers. They hated that we (in their words) "wanna be actors" were invading their sacred game stores.
Wikipedia has an excellent timeline of RPGs here.
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I really dislike the terms "new school" and "old school" when it comes to gaming styles, because it's always unclear just what the author means by each of those. "Roll vs role" or "narrativist, simulationist, gamist" or "roleplayer, actor, gamer" or so many other terms are much more descriptive. I'm sure the people using "old vs new" know exactly what they're talking about, but I've been gaming for more than 30 years and knew people who used all different styles 30 years go! Exactly which of the 30 year old styles are you calling "old school" and which of the 30 year old styles are you calling "new school"?
By the way, if you want to know when pen & paper RPGers and computer RPGers started arguing, read the first two paragraphs of this article about Zork!
[true enough but the "old schoolers" of that era were Miniatures Wargamers. They hated that we (in their words) "wanna be actors" were invading their sacred game stores.
In the campus club in which I played at the BSU student center, the roleplayers started about 4pm on Saturday. The Fletcher Pratt people played from 8am-noonish. The painters and SCAers came in at the end of the Fletcher Pratt games to put tables back ( those naval models took up the entire floor area) and stayed to RP. Most of the historical minature people seemed to play on sand tables in the gaming stores around campus. I felt very lucky to have played with so many diverse people. Easily, during the early eighties, there were 5-8 games with four or more people and several smaller pick-up games on a Saturday night.
Greg
true enough but the "old schoolers" of that era were Miniatures Wargamers. They hated that we (in their words) "wanna be actors" were invading their sacred game stores.
Certainly true. I started gaming in 1983 (when I was 8) and my dad hated the idea, because he was a wargammer. He told stories of kicking roleplayers out of parties when they would suggestion playing that non-historically accurate game Dungeons and Dragons.
I feel my love of gaming stems from karma getting back at my dad!
From what I've seen "old school" generally translates into the "right" way to play, and "new school" translates into that "other way". Now this might be from the perspective of awarding experience for kills vs awarding it for acomplishing goals...or it could be using maps vs using DM description only....or really any other subject gamers argue about.
I haven't been playing for 30 years, though I have been playing for over half that time. Played with a lot of kids new to the game, and a lot of guys who started back with various colored boxed sets.
Gamers are like everyone else...there's our way, and the wrong way.
My group currently consists of almost all wargamers. I don't know who all started out playing what, but I know I'm an RPer before I'm a wargamer, and one of our members recently decided he's done with wargames and is only into RPGs now. Most of the guys are young (compared to me, so early twenties, some late teens) but most of them are good kids. When I GM for them they don't argue, they don't expect things to play like a video game.
PURE OPINION: People need to talk about the gamers less, and the game more.
And playing the game is way better than talking about it.
People love to fracture into tribes and squabble over minutiae, but all of these factions are far more similar than you'd ever imagine, especially in the eyes of outsiders. We're all gathering together to fuel fantasy lives with dice and math.
90% of these labeling threads just remind me of those Original Trek aliens who are half black and half white.
There is no right way to play. It's a game designed to facilitate FUN. Who even cares how people are playing it as long as they are having fun? Seriously. Get off your "high paladin mount" if you're one of the people that rips others for how they decide to play a game. Unless you're doing something seriously weird (and I mean like dangerous or morally corrupt) then it doesn't matter.
Also...what does it even mean in the OP that these durned whippersnappers don't have the same respect for the hobby??? I can't even fathom what the heck that might mean. They regard it as a game?!?! Oh noes!
I only judge people who are judgmental : )
Personally, anime should stay in anime, mmorpg was the worlds biggest mistake to call it rpg, there is no role to play, All that stuff should stay were it is, separate.
And bring back 10 foot poles!
Personally, anime should stay in anime, mmorpg was the worlds biggest mistake to call it rpg, there is no role to play, All that stuff should stay were it is, separate.
And bring back 10 foot poles!
Wrong. That's why they even have RP servers for WoW and other games. I've even role-played while playing Diablo 2. Every game (and pathfinder and dnd are games) is what you make of it.
The 10 foot pole left?
There is no right way to play.
Not "There is no wrong way to play"? You have a very negative personality, did you know that?
Wrong. That's why they even have RP servers for WoW and other games. I've even role-played while playing Diablo 2. Every game (and pathfinder and dnd are games) is what you make of it.Personally, anime should stay in anime, mmorpg was the worlds biggest mistake to call it rpg, there is no role to play, All that stuff should stay were it is, separate.
And bring back 10 foot poles!
And that's why you should always use emoticons on the net if you're not being serious. Without it, people might not catch it and believe you're really out there building ghettos for art forms.
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true enough but the "old schoolers" of that era were Miniatures Wargamers. They hated that we (in their words) "wanna be actors" were invading their sacred game stores.Umm, I dont understand, there was an 'old school' crowd or RPers THIRTY years ago? What were you role playing at? Macbeth?OD&D: 1974
Holmes Basic: 1978
AD&D: 1978-1979
Moldvay Basic: 1981So, yeah thirty years ago there were already four versions of D&D alone to squabble over, let alone other TSR games, Game Designer's Workshop, FGU, and Chaosium. I'm sure there's more, but that's off the top of my head.
Ummm not true either. I started in 1974 myself. While yes there were Miniatures wargamers there was also kids playing it too.. and with out imagination we did so much more then what the older generation of gamers that were playing it at the time thought of. Some even went so far as to join us and had some fun with us too. Can't put words and speak for the entire community back then simply put, we speak for ourselves first. :)
36-37 years of gaming makes for some interesting games, view points and the like too. Not to mention the stories that come with that many years of gaming :)
Not "There is no wrong way to play"? You have a very negative personality, did you know that?There is no right way to play.
There is a wrong way to play. It was the wrong way of playing that is part of the reason why "DnD" players are still looked upon so negatively by some people. For example, doing hallucinogenic drugs then playing and actually attacking people with swords would be a wrong way to play.
I will amend my statement to "There are many right ways to play." That sounds more positive!
:) Lollers! Need Kae's approval!!!!11!!
Edit: I did indeed crit fail my Sense Motive check on Pendagast's post. My b. Just consider that response aimed at people who truly hold the belief I'm addressing.
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There is a wrong way to play. But it's pretty damned uncommon, despite what some posters here would have you think.
There is a wrong way to play. But it's pretty damned uncommon, despite what some posters here would have you think.
Somebody published a game worse than Synnibar? Wow. That's impressive, in a depressive kinda way.
+1 for the Trek reference, EvilLincoln!
Flame war, begin!
This is a topic very near and dear to my heart. But this quote in the OP puts me off participating in this thread.
No doubt - flame war!
I have to agree - there is no wrong way to play.
That said - I do have my preferences and, while I won't game with certain types, they still have their place and desire to game. Who are we to decide if they are wrong or not?
There is a wrong way to play. It was the wrong way of playing that is part of the reason why "DnD" players are still looked upon so negatively by some people. For example, doing hallucinogenic drugs then playing and actually attacking people with swords would be a wrong way to play.
Bah! You let yourself be fooled by that B.A.D.D. propaganda. So people get stabbed at when we're playing rough? Well, occupational hazard. They should have thought about that before we dropped acid and jumped them on the street! ;-)
There is no right way to play. It's a game designed to facilitate FUN. Who even cares how people are playing it as long as they are having fun? Seriously. Get off your "high paladin mount" if you're one of the people that rips others for how they decide to play a game. Unless you're doing something seriously weird (and I mean like dangerous or morally corrupt) then it doesn't matter.
Also...what does it even mean in the OP that these durned whippersnappers don't have the same respect for the hobby??? I can't even fathom what the heck that might mean. They regard it as a game?!?! Oh noes!
I only judge people who are judgmental : )
I'll tell you what I think it means. I have players at the table who couldn't tell you who Gary Gygax or Dave Arneson are (unless they googled it first). Who think a character background means "His mom got raped by an orc, so he's half-orc and he loves to rage, so he's a barbarian." Who think it's "unfair" that they don't get their dexterity bonus to AC in a surprise round, or before they act in the initiative order. Who know every person that works at Blizzard software, but don't know names like Monte Cook or Erik Mona. Who think there's absolutely no problem dropping into a long running campaign for a short session here and there, because they want some "gaming time." Those are the things that I see as a lack of respect for the game. Of course I also said that I'm glad these people are taking part in the hobby, because, as others have said, it means more money for Paizo, and more and better books in the future for me. I wasn't trying to suggest I don't like them playing. I was just saying I think I understand where a certain amount of elitism comes from. It comes from a standard of knowledge about the game that doesn't seem present or active in some players.
Also
Flame War, begin!This is a topic very near and dear to my heart. But this quote in the OP puts me off participating in this thread.
I'm sorry if that put you off. I was just trying to let people know that I perfectly understood that this is a topic that has strong and varied opinions on both sides. I wasn't trying to welcome a flame war, I just wanted people to know I wasn't afraid of one starting. So far, I'm rather pleased with the civility of the discussion. If you're so inclined, I'd like to hear your opinions.
Lastly,
Take that for what you will, maybe I think a certain amount of elitism is due to those RPers that have been playing pen and paper first and foremost for the past twenty or so years.
I think a lot of people read this the wrong way, and in hindsight I can see why: poor wording. What I should have said was: I think one of the reasons that you see elitism in older players is they've been immersed in the pen and paper world for the past twenty or so years, and therefore have a much more in depth knowledge of the game both in front of and behind "the curtain." When I said "due to" I didn't mean, you owe us/them elitism. I meant, "it is due to the fact that..." Like I said, poor wording.
I'll tell you what I think it means. I have players at the table who couldn't tell you who Gary Gygax or Dave Arneson are
So? They're supposed to play the game, not write a thesis on it.
Who think a character background means "His mom got raped by an orc, so he's half-orc and he loves to rage, so he's a barbarian."
Yeah, that's not my kind of game, but some people don't want more than that. Just their preference.
Who think it's "unfair" that they don't get their dexterity bonus to AC in a surprise round, or before they act in the initiative order.
So? Of course it is unfair. The world is unfair, after all.
Who know every person that works at Blizzard software, but don't know names like Monte Cook or Erik Mona.
Again: This is a game, not a trivia show on TV.
Who think there's absolutely no problem dropping into a long running campaign for a short session here and there, because they want some "gaming time."
I don't think there's a problem with that, either. The main goal is having fun. There are a few people who can't play regularly, but when they're on the continent for a change and want to play again with the old crew, I and every other GM they played with will bend over backwards to accommodate them, for old times' sake.
Those are the things that I see as a lack of respect for the game.
Respect? For a game? It's a game!!!
Not letting someone play just because you think it's disrespectful to a game, or some dead guy you never met just shows disrespect to those who are supposed to be your friends.
Thinking little of people just because they don't go all fanboi and start stalking the game's creators is just disturbing. If I were in the business, I'd get a cease and desist on anyone with that opinion just for that opinion. I'd be afraid I'd find them handcuffed to my fridge, having their character's sheet tattooed on their belly or something. :P
I was just saying I think I understand where a certain amount of elitism comes from.
The way you describe it, it's because some people take this game way too seriously and are so disconnected from the world that they cannot conceive that not doing so is the healthy thing to do.
It's as bad as those sports idiots who will make and break friendships (and bones) based on what you think of a bunch of highly-paid football players.
It comes from a standard of knowledge about the game that doesn't seem present or active in some players.
When a detailed background knowledge of a game's history becomes standard for players, I'll quit. Seriously.
Sure, I know who Arneson and Gygax were. I know Jacobs, Mona, Cook. I know about a Roger Moore who didn't seduce for his Queen (though I only ever personally met the one who did).
But I also know that I know these things because I this is not just a game to me, but a hobby. I'm not just a PF/D&D player, I'm a "buff". Anyone is free to replace that with a less savoury word, like fanatic.
Sure, as long as you don't overdo it, as long as it remains just a hobby (even if you do put considerable time, money and effort into it), it's not bad. But when you lose sight of the fact that those who only play the game, for whom it's only a casual pastime and nothing more, aren't "bad" people about it, or if you start getting airs and think you're better than them for some reason, then it's time for you to get help.
A lot of logical ripostes
Well put, and points taken. Also wanted to say that, yes, I understand it's a game, but some games need respect or they can kick you in the rear end. Chess, is one example. If you don't respect chess, you'll never be good at it. Could be true for other things, even other games.
I don't think there's a problem with that, either. The main goal is having fun. There are a few people who can't play regularly, but when they're on the continent for a change and want to play again with the old crew, I and every other GM they played with will bend over backwards to accommodate them, for old times' sake.
I totally agree with you here. I'm not talking about this kind, I'm talking about people who drop in and out when the whim seizes. People that live in the same town, and have very few responsibilities.
Edit: Also, I never said I didn't let anyone play. I specifically said "I have players." Believe it or not, I still GM fairly for everyone at the table. It just so happens that there are some people at the table I respect a lot more than others. Yeah it's elitist, but it's real. Just like a lot of parents have a favorite child; they'll never admit it, but it's real.
wow, this thread reminds of volunteering at the VFW lodge near my base. ;)
You, sir, win the thread.
I think a lot of people read this the wrong way, and in hindsight I can see why: poor wording. What I should have said was: I think one of the reasons that you see elitism in older players is they've been immersed in the pen and paper world for the past twenty or so years, and therefore have a much more in depth knowledge of the game both in front of and behind "the curtain." When I said "due to" I didn't mean, you owe us/them elitism. I meant, "it is due to the fact that..." Like I said, poor wording.
All I've seen from the gray haired gamers is the assertion that they know the game backwards and forwards, not because they do but because they have been playing it so long thus they are inherently knowledgable about everything ever and they should be listened (and catered to) by all the young disrespectful whipper snappers who play this "wow" thing.
One of the reasons you see elitism in older players is because they are older players. "Oh look, we have been in the hobby forever, let's look down our nose at new people interested in this new fangled version and complain about them being video game kids whether they are or not."
Just because you played AD&D back in high school doesn't make you the god of 3rd edition or Pathfinder some 30 years later. It just means you get to learn a new system like everyone else. You can save the waxing nostalgic for other gray haired gamers instead of using it to look down on people just joining the hobby either tabula rasa or from mmorpgs.
All I've seen from the gray haired gamers is the assertion that they know the game .... you can save the waxing nostalgic for other gray haired gamers instead of using it to look down on people just joining the hobby either tabula rasa or from mmorpgs.
Dude, you sound like a young Pete Townshend. Seen any pictures of him lately? (I liked Pete. Still do. Interesting the change with the years.)
We all get old and long in the tooth. And us old guys are going to wax nostalgic and blather on about how things were better in our youth. You will too.
For now, you can scream obnoxiously while you hide behind a mask, or you can engage on a more meaningful level. Do something with your profile. Try refuting the other side's arguments in a calm manner.
"RP elitism " is obviously a hot button topic with you. But what is it other than a catchy slogan? And what makes it any worse than "optimizer elitism"?
It really is all about opinions,but "old school" players often seem to share similar opinions about certain subjects,although there are always differences amongst any group or classification. Often these opinions about how the game should be played are based on how the game was played in previous editions,how these individuals played their own games,and their own experiences and,again,opinions. For example,I could say that Cartigan is a rude and belligerent hothead based on my experience with the posts I have read by him,but that would just be my opinion. Just an example.
An example of old school gamer preferences can be found in a thread there was around here where gamers were discussing the "genius of Thac0". At least one gamer stated that they adapted Thac0 for 3.5.
Dude, you sound like a young Pete Townshend. Seen any pictures of him lately? (I liked Pete. Still do. Interesting the change with the years.)
All I've seen from the gray haired gamers is the assertion that they know the game .... you can save the waxing nostalgic for other gray haired gamers instead of using it to look down on people just joining the hobby either tabula rasa or from mmorpgs.
I have no idea who Pete Townshend is and imagine I don't care.
And us old guys are going to wax nostalgic and blather on about how things were better in our youth. You will too.
And you are welcome to do it. As long as you don't use your nostalgia to look down your nose at other players. "Back in my day, we didn't have movement speeds, we had to describe to our DM the exact methodology we used for moving and we only got to move as far as we could describe the proper method for moving. And if we did it wrong, we fell prone. You whipper snappers got it easy with your automatic movement speeds and 5ft steps."
For now, you can scream obnoxiously while you hide behind a mask, or you can engage on a more meaningful level.
What meaningful level? There was nothing given, to paraphrase, but "I've been playing this game for many a winter and I don't like all these new players who (I am going to insinuate without proof to be derogatory) came from MMORPGs and don't play the game the good old fashioned way are dumbing down my great game."
Pete Townshend had this little song called "Talkin' Bout My Generation". (I think). I think that was Thom's point in referencing him.
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Dudes, you guys who are looking for elitism are looking in the wrong game. You know what game has a lot of real elitism? World of darkness. There's player elitism, character elitism, story elitism... man, those guys have so much elitism they beat us at it before we even start trying to compete.
Face it guys, you'll never have enough elitism to compete with the elite elitists. Unless you're a WoD player, too, I guess.
Anyways, I think the game gets a lot richer and more fun for everyone when there's a little bit of commitment to making it something more than just a game. And when someone comes along and shatters immersion with a barbarian who has no aspiration in life aside from gaining xp and treasure, it can ruin the fun.
I think most of these people are objecting to the "whippersnappers". People are coming in with no respect for storyline, immersion, character development, and richness of play. Because of this, the people who love that stuff are having their fun partially ruined, and they don't like that.