My son (9 years old) has an idea for what I feel might be an interesting magic item:
Monster Summoning Arrows (types I to IX): Single use Weapon (Specific type I would guess)with a specific single Monster type assigned.
Ex.: Monster Summoning Arrows (type I: Eagle) or Monster Summoning Arrows (type V: Large Water Elemental).
I'll go threw the pricing but my only references so far are the Horn of Valhalla and Bag of tricks. I guess the range of the arrow use would have to be watched for.
Any sugestions?
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I like this idea. I'm assuming the arrows would be fired at an open space and not into a target.
I don't design magic items too often so my math might be wrong but here's an idea.
Cost of 20 +1 arrows = 2000gp
Cost of single use, use activated spell (Summon Monster 1 as an example) = 50gp
Cost of masterworked weapon (20 arrows) = 300gp
total = 2350gp for 20 Summon Monster 1 arrows
Though the book says, a weapon needs an enhancement bonus to carry an additional effect, you could rule these as non-weapon wondrous items in arrow form. They wouldn't do damage if used as ordinary arrows (maybe the arrowheads are small packets of summoning components or tiny animal carvings?) so you could negate the 2000gp enhancement cost leaving you with a cost 350gp for 20 Summon Monster 1 arrows.
I thought this thread was going to be about summoning arrows.
I like this idea. I'm assuming the arrows would be fired at an open space and not into a target.
I don't design magic items too often so my math might be wrong but here's an idea.
Cost of 20 +1 arrows = 2000gp
Cost of single use, use activated spell (Summon Monster 1 as an example) = 50gp
Cost of masterworked weapon (20 arrows) = 300gp
total = 2350gp for 20 Summon Monster 1 arrowsThough the book says, a weapon needs an enhancement bonus to carry an additional effect, you could rule these as non-weapon wondrous items in arrow form. They wouldn't do damage if used as ordinary arrows (maybe the arrowheads are small packets of summoning components or tiny animal carvings?) so you could negate the 2000gp enhancement cost leaving you with a cost 350gp for 20 Summon Monster 1 arrows.
No need to do that even. If used as an arrow to damage an enemy, the spell is not cast. If used to summon a creature, the arrow vanishes on contact with a surface and summons the creature. Cost for SM1 is 300gp for 20 MW arrows (to allow them to be enchanted) and 50x20 = 1000gp for the spells. So total for 20 Arrows of Summon Monster I (Eagle) would be 1350gp.
I thought this thread was going to be about summoning arrows.
Me too.
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You may want to add a 'only usable once per round' caveat or make it a standard action to activate one, so as to prevent instant creature spam/crowd control (horde of skeletons coming down a hallway towards us? full-attack + rapid shot - now there's a line of 6 angry badgers blocking the way).
Much as I like the idea of a badger-firing machine gun, might be kind of annoying when it hits the combat grid.
I thought this thread was going to be about summoning arrows.
I'd go for a Arcane Cantrip with Swift casting time and a 1 round duration for summoning a single ordinary arrow.
Thanks for the inputs.
You may want to add a 'only usable once per round' caveat or make it a standard action to activate one, so as to prevent instant creature spam/crowd control (...)
Yhea, I would keep that as an activation/single-shot standard action. I see it with the ranged attack of a unoccupied square (or square for large+ versions) range factor. So vs AC:5 (if you miss roll it like a splash-weapon miss) with range and cover, etc. coming into play.
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The fact that it's an arrow is a bit confusing on the pricing, it's a use activated wondrous item.
The weird thing about this item is you could conceivably use it as an attack action which makes it considerably more powerful than a standard action based item. Also, summoning is typically a full round action spell.
I'm thinking you would activate it one round then you could fire it the next round... then about 150gp for a Summon Monster I with a caster level of 3.
If you made it just a simple "Fire from the bow and it attacks" effect I'd charge a lot more because you could use 3-4 of them in a round.
Maybe, to simulate 1 round casting time the arrow after being fired had to be left undisturbed for 1 round before monster spawns. Or just use the general rule that magic item requires standard action or casting time if longer and make firing the arrow to activate it a 1 round action during which archer has to concntrate on releasing its energy.
Ability to fire mutiple summoning arrows in the same turn should increase their price greatly.
Much as I like the idea of a badger-firing machine gun, might be kind of annoying when it hits the combat grid.
I'm speechless. My brain has frozen up trying to contain the awesomeness that is a badger-firing machine gun.
For flavor, maybe it would be fun to have to fire the arrow into the summoned creature's element. Like, into a fire for a fire elemental, into a lake for a water elemental, into a stone wall for an earth elemental, into the air for a flying creature, into a tree for plant/sylvan creature, etc. The creature would emerge from the target material. Might help balance the low cost a bit.
I still can't think of a mechanical way of blocking multiple summons, other than a cheap ban on using another arrow while the first creature is still in play. Maybe the same type of arrow cannot be used for the duration? That way, you could get a badger and an eagle going at once.
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Given that you can already spam monsters by summoning creatures from lower level lists, I'd just let the user have the badger gatling. If it does turn into a problem, there are a few things you could do.
1. Raise the price - simple and effective. A player who wants to carpet bomb the battlefield with badgers has less money to spend on other stuff.
2. Make the items crossbow-delivered - Even with the crossbow related feats, it'll take a little while to get up to the same ROF as the bow.
3. Move or Swift Action to activate one arrow - A standard action is a little drastic and doesn't leave any time to fire the arrow in one round.
The problem with making them limited to only one active arrow at a time is that it isn't logical. What if the PC divides his poké-arrows among the party or a bad guy brings his own to the battle? Who gets to use the arrows? To avoid the confusion, just let it be or limit their use another way.
I'm all for making each arrow a separate creature rather than letting the shooter decide on firing. If the GM decides, for whatever reason, the players shouldn't have access to certain monsters, he can limit the available arrows (maybe a LG fletcher would never create an arrow he knew could be used to summon demons.)
Given that you can already spam monsters by summoning creatures from lower level lists,
(...)
I'm all for making each arrow a separate creature rather than letting the shooter decide on firing.
(...)
To me those are limits (single and specific creature) that made sense in the poké-arrow (yep, you got some of the origin of the idea) fluff and also compensated enough to step away from the summoning 1 round casting time.
It was also suggested to me (by my dearest spouse, mother of the original idea presenter, this is getting into a family affair!) that an Orb possible to spike on an arrow, bolt or used straight as a bullet(sling) might be an interesting (and very poké!) variant.
Heh, good idea. One of my players always asks for arrows of healing, which is another great concept.
As a DM if a player asked for these I'd have to do some serious thinking about them. One of my problems with many game systems are the arbitrary and nonsensical limitations created by the game designers simply for balance, so the idea that an archer couldn't fire more than one of these per round sort of bothers me.
But the ability to fire more than one per round gives this an oomph that a monster summoning wand, for example, lacks.
So I'd probably make them more expensive than a trigger based summoning magic item. That way the faster you use them, the more they cost you.
Off the top of my head, I'd probably say the arrow has a pre-determined monster and that 20 of them would cost as much as a comparable 50 charge wand.
I'm so gonna pull this on my players in my upcoming campaign. This has awesome coolness written all over it. One "badger firing machine gun" coming up!
I like it, I want to summon fiendish goblins using 'goblin arrows' or maybe a 'goblin bow'.
I REALLY like this idea. I'm definitely stealing it; kudos to the kid!
Also, I think Velcro Zipper's idea to make it a swift action to activate works nicely. You can still get off a full attack with the bow, but only activate one summoning arrow per round in that way.
Yes, this is so stolen. Freaking awesome.
Himmm... the summoning of arows or the arows of summoning?
I think i'll use this to gate vermin on a confirmed crit, not onley did that arow hit hard but now you are wearing a verry angrey adder!
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I really like this idea too.
Assume you hit an enemy with one of these. The arrow is sticking into his belly, for instance. Would the summoned creature appear inside the target? Suddenly, you have a very angry badger clawing at the bad guy's tender entrails!
I think we're operating under the assumption the poké-arrows cannot be used as weapons. That way, there's no need to figure out or argue over the rules for summoning a creature into an occupied square. That said, you could probably still fire a celestial black bear arrow over the head of an enemy and have your own drop bear.
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I really like this idea too.
Assume you hit an enemy with one of these. The arrow is sticking into his belly, for instance. Would the summoned creature appear inside the target? Suddenly, you have a very angry badger clawing at the bad guy's tender entrails!
I think we're operating under the assumption the poké-arrows cannot be used as weapons. That way, there's no need to figure out or argue over the rules for summoning a creature into an occupied square. That said, you could probably still fire a celestial black bear arrow over the head of an enemy and have your own drop bear.
I was going for a joke here. I guess I should have used a smiley :^)
I was actually thinking that if one of these arrows hits a target (instead of an empty square), it causes normal damage and fails to summon anything.
I really like this idea too.
Assume you hit an enemy with one of these. The arrow is sticking into his belly, for instance. Would the summoned creature appear inside the target? Suddenly, you have a very angry badger clawing at the bad guy's tender entrails!
Like the snake arrows from the first Conan movie!
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Also, I think Velcro Zipper's idea to make it a swift action to activate works nicely. You can still get off a full attack with the bow, but only activate one summoning arrow per round in that way.
After thinking it over, I think a swift action might be too good. I'd probably go with the move action to activate the item and a standard action to fire it. The swift action to activate assumes the arrow would be fired as part of the full attack, which still seems too powerful in the hands of an optimized archer who could stil get a few damaging shots in along with one of the summoning arrows. Sure, there are comparable abilities available to characters but I'm not aware of any that would be so easy to pull off. With it being a swift action, a creature is basically getting the ability to quick cast a summon spell and still pop off multiple arrows for a few measly coins. There wouldn't be any reason I couldn't drop a party of high-level archers armed with swift action poké-arrows on my party, and I don't want that option any more than I want a party full of similarly armed PCs.
Alternately, you could make it a standard action to activate and fire one arrow so it would be on par with a wand or similar item in terms of speed.
Thus the vermin as they have to occupy the same square to attack.
Something really stingey or bitey like a jellyfish =)
Also, I think Velcro Zipper's idea to make it a swift action to activate works nicely. You can still get off a full attack with the bow, but only activate one summoning arrow per round in that way.After thinking it over, I think a swift action might be too good. I'd probably go with the move action to activate the item and a standard action to fire it. The swift action to activate assumes the arrow would be fired as part of the full attack, which still seems too powerful in the hands of an optimized archer who could stil get a few damaging shots in along with one of the summoning arrows. Sure, there are comparable abilities available to characters but I'm not aware of any that would be so easy to pull off. With it being a swift action, a creature is basically getting the ability to quick cast a summon spell and still pop off multiple arrows for a few measly coins. There wouldn't be any reason I couldn't drop a party of high-level archers armed with swift action poké-arrows on my party, and I don't want that option any more than I want a party full of similarly armed PCs.
Alternately, you could make it a standard action to activate and fire one arrow so it would be on par with a wand or similar item in terms of speed.
I don't think it's a huge problem, but I had assumed there was still a one round wait. just activating it was a swift action. Maybe there should be a limit on the level of summoned creature? Kinda like how potions and oils have to be 3rd level spell limit.
What about Summon Nature's Ally compared to Summon Monster? It seems like I hear a lot about one of the two being stronger than the other (Nature, I think). Would you charge more for those?
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What about Summon Nature's Ally compared to Summon Monster? It seems like I hear a lot about one of the two being stronger than the other (Nature, I think). Would you charge more for those?
If I were adding these things to my campaign, I would only price the items according to the rules presented and not based on any perception that one spell is better than another spell of the same level. The effectiveness of a spell is way too subjective for me to let all the arguments factor into item creation. I'd suddenly have players telling me a wand of spirit weapon should cost less than a wand of scorching ray because they think spirit weapon is less useful.
The problem is that blind adherence to the rules can give you some real bombs. the most quoted example is the +1 sword that has true strike castable as a swift action on command. If you don't see the price/power ratio problem then there's no point in continuing this particular exchange.
If I were adding these things to my campaign, I would only price the items according to the rules presented and not based on any perception that one spell is better than another spell of the same level.
Well, I see where [s]he's coming from. Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally are very similar spells, and for all intents and purposes shouldn't be defined more narrowly than the level of casting.
However, my reason for asking was that if one were of the mind to make the distinction, would you, and how much would you set the difference at? I didn't put all that across in my question, but I expected it to lead to that.
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If you don't see the price/power ratio problem then there's no point in continuing this particular exchange.
Wow, LazarX. Smug much? I shouldn't jump to conclusions though. Maybe your post wasn't intended to come across as righteous.
You bring up a legitimate point, and I do recognize there are things within the rules (whether for item creation or combat or whatever) that are broken/foggy/open-to-interpretation/etc. My players and I just don't stress out over those things. Rule zero is a rule too; it just isn't an iron-fisted rule. At my table, it's more of a kind of consultative democracy.
In other words, you're right. We've got no reason to discuss this because you won't change my mind and I don't want to change yours.
However, my reason for asking was that if one were of the mind to make the distinction, would you, and how much would you set the difference at? I didn't put all that across in my question, but I expected it to lead to that.
My stance on the summon monster/nature's ally thing remains the same. In the case of these two spells, I've never seen any evidence at my table to indicate one is better than the other so I don't have a reason to alter the pricing of an item that uses one vice the other. That said, if I weren't me and I had a reason to believe one spell is better than the other, I would get some close consensus from my players as to how much better one spell is, perhaps based on a percentage, and adjust the price accordingly (i.e. If my players more or less agree that SNA1 is 10% better than SM1, then I could see the me I am not raising the price of the SNA1 item by 10%.) Does that help?
Hey guys, came across this thread while looking up this exact weapon (one of my characters received a Summoning Arrow back in 2003 in a 3.0/3.5 game)
If you check the old 3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide (pg 119)
"The head of the summoning arrow is sculpted to look like a bird of prey, and the fletching is always made of feathers from the same bird. When launched from a bow, a summoning arrow transforms into an eagle and attacks the foe that the arrow was fired at. If not launched at a specific target, a summoning arrow turns into an eagle when its 30' away from the wielder, then attacks the nearest creature. The eagle remains for 5 rounds, or until slain, whichever comes first. After 5 rounds, the eagle flies away. (it does not return to arrow form)
Cost was 257 gp per arrow.
There is a pure fighter using spells lobby. In order to not step on their toes(a lot of them are were trolls, don't anger them) I suggest using them as transforming in flight, fire as a normal arrow. Look at the javelin of lightning. I also agree that all details are set by the craftier. If master craftsman is used, it's at minimum caster level. To summon a hound archon, glue shed fur to the shaft. Note that unless an valid caster is present, control defaults to self. The Hound Archon will go for the throat of the vampire.
Roleplay it. The Hound Archon might spend leftover rounds preaching to the neutral party members.