I threw in grit for the Feat version, though I'm wondering if it should have a 1 grit requirement per use of Resolute Shot, or leave it grit free? The innovation feat idea might be good too.
EDIT: Whoohoo! I get the 101st posting!!!
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Since it's a feat made to allow other classes to use the guns without sucking at it, I think there shouldn't be any grit needed to make a Resolute shot.
Asking for proficiency + long-barrel firearm + riffled barrel + BAB 6 should be enough. It's one feat needed for a non-gunlinsger firearm-fighter to shoot full-attacks (Innovation), this doesn't resolves in itself the reloading problems once you've made your Resolute Shot and it's if the fighter got proficiency for free at 1st level for variant purposes. Plus, writing it like this would make gunslingers wonder if they have to use 1 grit each time they shoot, when there are a lot of deeds that already down them to make useful things.
Resolute Shot can be made a feat with proficiency + long-barrel firearm + riffled barrel + BAB 6 as prerequisites.
Innovation can be made a feat with proficiency + BAB 4 as prerequisites, which allows to get one available innovation on each firearm you got, but doesn't count as the "Innovation" class feature of the gunslinger for the purposes of taking Extra Innovation.
Lock and Load can stay the deed it is right now, AND be made a feat with prerequisites proficiency + BAB 2, which allows to reload without a free hand. And adds a special capacity : if the character got the Amateur Gunslinger feat, he can spend 1 grit point and reload an additional shot in the same action.
Ok, the Gunslinger got this PLUS Rapid Reload if she takes the Lock and Load deed at level 1. But she's a gunslinger. If the figther goes this way, he will not lack feats to do the same.
FEATS
Although you are not a gunslinger, you have developed and can add a single gunslinger’s innovation to your firearms.
Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency (firearm type chosen), base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: You have developed one gunslinger innovation, for which you have qualified, and can add it to all firearms you possess. You are considered to have the Innovation class feature only for the purpose of qualifying for your chosen innovation. This does not count as the gunslinger’s Innovation class feature for the purpose of taking Extra Innovation.
You can load a firearm even when both hands are full.
Prerequisites: Grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger feat, Weapon Proficiency (firearm type chosen), base attack bonus +2.
Benefit: You can reload your firearm without having your other hand free. If your firearm has more than one barrel, you can spend 1 grit point and reload an additional shot in the same action.
You can make a single devastating shot as a full-round action.
Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency (firearm type chosen), Rifled Barrel innovation, musket or long-barrel firearm, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You forfeit your full-attack to make a single focused shot at your highest attack bonus. If you miss, you deal no damage. If a misfire occurs, you must remove your firearm’s broken condition before any further attacks can be made, though no additional attacks can be made until your next turn. On a direct hit, however, you deal normal damage. You then roll the remaining attacks of your full-attack action, though no additional shots are taken. For each remaining attack that hits, you roll damage as normal and add this to your total damage. If any of the remaining attack rolls result in a “miss” or a “misfire”, they deal no damage, and no misfire occurs. Any damage reduction your target has is applied only once to your total damage. Critical hits confirmed on your attack rolls are calculated as normal, separately from each other. A Resolute Shot can only be made with a musket or some other long-barreled firearm.
Special: If you have Rapid Shot, you can make one additional attack roll at your highest bonus, though no additional shot is taken. If it hits, you roll damage normally and add it to your total damage. However, when using Rapid Shot in this manner, you receive a -2 penalty to all attack rolls you make during this round. If you have the Double Shot deed, the More Dakka innovation, and an additional barrel loaded and ready to shoot, you can discharge a second shot at the same time as you make your Resolute Shot. If your Resolute Shot hits, both shots hit. This second shot is a separate attack, and is subject to its own damage reduction. This functions as Manyshot. If you use the Alchemical Gun innovation during your Resolute Shot, energy damage dealt by the shot is added to your first attack roll only.
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Using the Crossbowman variant adapted to firearms, here is a fighter build using these feats to make a musket work.
Gunner : loses heavy and medium armor proficiency, gains proficiency with all firearms, can get for free a musket or two pistols when beginning at first level. These weapons, and only these ones, become of masterwork quality at 3rd level due to good maintenance.
Deadshot (Ex)
When a gunner attacks with a firearm as a readied action, he may add 1/2 his Dexterity bonus (minimum +1) on his damage roll.Firearm Expert (Ex)
At 5th level, a gunner gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with firearms. This bonus increases by +1 per four levels after 5th.Improved Deadshot (Ex)
At 7th level, when a gunner attacks with a firearm as a readied action, his target is denied its Dexterity bonus to its AC.
Level 7 Fighter, Gunner variant (20 Point buy)12
22
14
12
12
7Saves :
Fort: 5+2: 7
Ref: 2+6: 8
Will: 2+1: 3HPs :
6d10 + 10 + 7(PC) + 14(Con) + 9(Rob) = 6d8 + 38 = 72AC :
20/16/14Attack :
BAB : +7/+2
Melee -> +8/+3
Dis -> +13/+8 (+1 with firearms, +2 with rifled barrel, +1 with muskets)
BMC -> +8Damage :
+2 Musket, rifled barrel (2d6+5, 20x4) +19/+14 (+17/+17/+12 with Rapid Shot), hits touch AC beyond 80 ft.
Pistol, Utility gun (1d4+1 non-lethal, trip ; Net ; Grappling hook) +15/+10, 30 ft.
+1 to ranged Attack and Damage beyond 30 feet.Feats :
H. Rapid Reload
1. Rapid Shot
2. Point-Blank Shot
3. Firearm Mastery (Musket)
4. Weapon Focus (Musket)
5. Amateur Innovator
6. Resolute Shot
7. Weapon Specialization (Musket)Reloading time :
Musket : move action, can make Resolute Shots.
Pistol : move action.Equipement :
23500
+2 Musket
15500
+1 Fire/Cold/Electricity/Corrosive/Allying bullets (x10 each, 50 total)
7500
Dexterity belt, +2
3500
Powder, Bullets x50
3000
Chain shirt, Mithral
1900
Mwk Pistol
600
Don't know what you think, but it looks at least playable to me.
What are Firearm Mastery (obviously not the 20th level Gunslinger feature) and Focused Shot (I assume supposed to be Resolute Shot)?
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Gosh, I made a mistake, it's repaired. I've changed the names, recalculated with BAB +7/+2 instead of +6/+1, added masterwork bonus to pistol and changed swift action to move action when reloading pistol since Firearm Mastery applies to only one weapon.
Focused Shot = Resolute Shot.
Firearm Mastery is the one you wrote several posts before =
Crossbow (Firearm) Mastery (Combat):
You can load crossbows with blinding speed and even fire them in melee with little fear of reprisal.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot.
Benefit: The time required for you to reload any type of crossbow is reduced to a free action, regardless of the type of crossbow used, while the time required to reload a one-handed firearm is reduce to a swift action, and a two-handed firearm is reduced to a move action. You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Reloading a crossbow or firearm for the type of crossbow or firearm you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: Starting at 6th level, a ranger with the archery combat style may select Crossbow Mastery as a combat style feat.
I still believe Rifled Barrel is overpowered. +2 to attack, plus one weapon size on base damage, and double range on first increment for only one innovation is really too good.
Eventually, it should just give one size to dice damage, and add +5 feet to range...
Gosh, I made a mistake, it's repaired. I've changed the names, recalculated with BAB +7/+2 instead of +6/+1, added masterwork bonus to pistol and changed swift action to move action when reloading pistol since Firearm Mastery applies to only one weapon.
Focused Shot = Resolute Shot.
Firearm Mastery is the one you wrote several posts before =Crossbow (Firearm) Mastery (Combat):I still believe Rifled Barrel is overpowered. +2 to attack, plus one weapon size on base damage, and double range on first increment for only one innovation is really too good.
Eventually, it should just give one size to dice damage, and add +5 feet to range...
Ah, got ya!
After long consideration (because I believe you made this argument a few times over the many posts, and now I see the light), I propose the following changes.
Original
Updated- This should deal with range and accuracy, not damage.
Original
Updated- This should only deal with damage, with no additional effcts from Rifled Barrel than the added range and accuracy.
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It's "better", but still too good, especially because no one could take Resolute Shot before level 8 if the innovation prerequisite in it is level 7.
I suggest a cicumstances bonus of +1 to attack, and +5 feet to range, lowest level of innovation. A sniper sight innovation at higher level could double these bonus to get +2 to attack and +10 to range, stacking nicely with Distance enhancement or others deeds for any sniper build.
For Greater Bore, I like the change. Level 11 seems a bit high though. As a level 7 innovation it could maybe be better, considering that right now, the gunslinger can't apply dexterity bonus to damage and don't get Weapon specialization ?
I'd like other opinions on this one.
It's "better", but still too good, especially because no one could take Resolute Shot before level 8 if the innovation prerequisite in it is level 7.
I suggest a cicumstances bonus of +1 to attack, and +5 feet to range, lowest level of innovation. A sniper sight innovation at higher level could double these bonus to get +2 to attack and +10 to range, stacking nicely with Distance enhancement or others deeds for any sniper build.For Greater Bore, I like the change. Level 11 seems a bit high though. As a level 7 innovation it could maybe be better, considering that right now, the gunslinger can't apply dexterity bonus to damage and don't get Weapon specialization ?
I'd like other opinions on this one.
That's a good idea. Greater Bore can go back to 7th level, and rifled barrel can go to 3rd. Rifled Barrel can also go to +5 ft, and +1 cirumstance.
Rifled Barrel: The gunslinger improves the range and accuracy of her firearm. The gunslinger’s firearm’s range increases by +5 feet, and she gains a +1 circumstance bonus to her attack rolls. This innovation stacks with the Ranged Sight innovation.
The Ranged Sight innovation with be slightly altered to the following.
Ranged Sight: The gunslinger improves her firearm’s range and accuracy. The gunslinger’s firearm’s range increases by +5 feet, and she gains a +1 circumstance bonus to her attack rolls. This innovation stacks with the Rifled Barrel innovation.
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Seems good, but Ranged Sight should maybe be level 7 at least. But well, even if at level 3 someone gets Extra Innovation to combo Rifled Barrel and Ranged Sight on a unique weapon, it's still less powerful than the original Rifled Barrel innovation, so I guess it's good like this.
Note that in a sniper build, having a musket with Rifled Barrel and Ranged Sight pretty much allows to use Deadeye Shot without malus, since you get a +2 bonus that counterbalances the -2 when shooting in one more range increment...
I think we now have all that is needed to do the 1.5.
The only issues that will probably stand out are about the capacities increasing attack range. They should have heavy prerequisites, not stack with themselves, have a limited effect and cost grit or time, since they pretty much make the only gunslinger's weakness (with AC) disappear, and improve heavily their major strength, that is hitting touch AC at range.
I still believe Rifled Barrel is overpowered. +2 to attack, plus one weapon size on base damage, and double range on first increment for only one innovation is really too good.
Eventually, it should just give one size to dice damage, and add +5 feet to range...
I think you misunderstand here, Maxx. 1d12-2d6 is not an increase in weapon damage. 1d8-2d4 isn't, either. All it does is make damage more consistent. I'll explain below, but this honestly doesn't make the gun more powerful, it just gives it more consistent damage. Some people prefer spikier damage (like a greataxe), some prefer the consistent damage (like a greatsword). It's all a matter of preference.
I've never liked the bomus to attack, personally.
The range thing...
Ok, here's the thing: The reason the range is so short is because smoothbore firearms were inaccurate at higher ranges. They could still cause some damage at farther ranges, but you sure as hell weren't hitting what you were aiming at.
True, they did lose some penetrating power over range, as well.
Rifling didn't extend the effective range on fireamrs, it just extended the range at which a shot could be accurately aimed.
So, instead of gimping rifling, I propose the following changes TO THE ORIGINAL:
2d6/2d4 damage, 10 range increments (instead of the 5 it has atm), and ONE of the following-
*+10/5 feet of range increment
*The effects of Far Shot
*+2 On attacks.
1d12 -> 2d6 damage comparison:
On a 1d12, there is a 1:12 chance that any one of the values will appear. You have the same chance to roll a 1 that you do to roll a 7, or a 12, or a 4. Every side has an equal chance to come up.
With 2d6, there are 36 different possible combinations that the dice can make. 6 of these total 7, which is the average damage. Only 1 comes up with the maximum of 12. Only one of which comes up with the minimum of 2, as well. You have a MUCH higher chance of rolling average damage than you do of rolling high or low, which leads to more consistent damage, but fewer high-damage rounds.
There are pros and cons to both. With a single big die, you have better odds of dealing some serious damage, but you're just as likely to roll terribly low damage. With multiples, you're rarely going to roll terribly low damage, but you're not often going to be dealing top-range damage, either.
Here's a crappy chart that shows the odds of getting a certain damage with 1d12 vs 2d6.
Dmg - 1d12 - 2d6
1 - 1:12 - -
2 - 1:12 - 1:36
3 - 1:12 - 1:18
4 - 1:12 - 1:12
5 - 1:12 - 1:9
6 - 1:12 - 5:36 (Just over 1:7)
7 - 1:12 - 1:6
8 - 1:12 - 5:36
9 - 1:12 - 1:9
10 - 1:12 - 1:12
11 - 1:12 - 1:18
12 - 1:12 - 1:36
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Well, I did know about the consistence in damage when going from 1d12 to 2d6, though it was the global accumulation of effects that bugged me. When rewriting the innovation, I hesitated between a +1 bonus to attack or an increased size dice (2d4/2d6) in addition to the range, since the rifled barrel is here for "precision" - that is, hit "easier" or "with more constancy/less mishaps".
I admit I didn't thought about increasing the maximum range increment of the firearm. Instead of Far Shot, that I totally forgot when trying to think of a precise build... (wow, pretty awesome for a gun), the 2d6/2d4 damage and a better range increment seems good, but only for the original version that was a LEVEL 7 innovation. And there stays the problem of Resolute Shot needing a level 7 innovation as a prerequisite.
In this case, we should do this :
Rifled Barrel: The gunslinger improves the range and accuracy of her firearm. The gunslinger’s firearm’s range increases by +5 feet, and the damage of her firearm goes from 1d12 to 2d6 for a musket, and from 1d8 to 2d4 for a pistol. Without a rifled barrel, the gunslinger has a better chance of inflicting maximum or minimum damage ; so this makes the firearm damage no better or worse but more consistent.
Also, the maximum range of the firearm is now ten range increments instead of five. This innovation stacks with the Ranged Sight innovation.
Ranged Sight: The gunslinger improves her firearm’s range and accuracy. The gunslinger’s firearm’s range increases by +5 feet, and she gains a +1 circumstance bonus to her attack rolls. This innovation stacks with the Rifled Barrel innovation.
...Also, the maximum range of the firearm is now ten range increments instead of five. This innovation stacks with the Ranged Sight innovation.
I assume that means the new maximum range is 250 feet (10 x 25ft.) for a pistol instead of 100 feet (5 x 20 ft.), and 450 feet (10 x 45 ft.) for a musket (instead of 200 ft. (5 x 40 ft.)?
I can live without the +1 attack on rifled barrel, and like the increased max range better. Then stacked with the Ranged Sight you can get your +1 attack, plus another 5 feet range increase; max to 300 feet and 500 feet. That feels right to me. These are firearms after all.
Odentin, what do you think?
So make resolute shot require level 8?
I like the rifling/sight innovations. Perfect.
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So make resolute shot require level 8?
*Dark Vador* NOOOOOO !
The main purpose of Resolute Shot is exactly to allow any long-barreled firearm wielder to make full-attacks from the time they get these additional attacks, so we would only get a situation where we got the perfect solution to a problem that arises at level 6, but for obscure reasons is only available at level 8. The rifled barrel isn't an overpowered innovation anymore, so to put it as a low-level innovation shouldn't be a problem.
Just one correction on Greater Bore, to avoid any misunderstanding about how a rifled barrel damage would be enhanced :
"A gunslinger enlarges the size of both her firearm barrel’s bore and bullet. The damage of a gunslinger’s shot improves to 1d10 for a pistol, and to 2d8 for a musket. The gunslinger can create a number of greater shot per day equal to the gunslinger’s level + the gunslinger’s Dexterity modifier. The gunslinger must be at least 11th level to select this innovation."
So you want to make rifling a 3rd level innovation?
Also, I really don't like amateur innovator or lock and loader feats. They're just giving too many of the 'slinger's class features away...
Just one correction on Greater Bore, to avoid any misunderstanding about how a rifled barrel damage would be enhanced :
"A gunslinger enlarges the size of both her firearm barrel’s bore and bullet. The damage of a gunslinger’s shot improves to 1d10 for a pistol, and to 2d8 for a musket. The gunslinger can create a number of greater shot per day equal to the gunslinger’s level + the gunslinger’s Dexterity modifier. The gunslinger must be at least 11th level to select this innovation."
OK, we have the following with Rifled Barrel and Greater Bore.
Rifled Barrel
Pistol: 1d8 to 2d4
Musket: 1d12 to 2d6
Greater Bore *In my thinking this is the equivalent as a size upgrade, as if a medium firearm became a large fire arm. Thus, Greater Bore on its own, according to Table 6-5 in the Core Rulebook changes a firearm damage to following.
Pistol: 1d8 increases to 2d6
Musket: 1d12 increases to 3d6
Now, if a gunslinger combines Rifled Barrel with Greate Bore, then the following should happen, again according to table 6-5 in the PF Cre Rulebook:
Pistol: 1d8 to 2d4 (Rifled); 2d4 to 2d6 (Greater Bore)
Musket: 1d12 to 2d6 (Rifled); 2d6 to 3d6 (Greater Bore)
Conclusion, simply make Greater Bore the following, since the up grade from 1d8 or 2d4 is 2d6, and 1d12 or 2d6 is 3d6. All according to the book.
The thing is, the weapon itself isn't different, as your Greater Bore numbers would suggest (1d8 to a 1d10, or 1d12 to a 2d6), but a weapon size increase (1d8 to 2d6, or 1d12 to 3d6). Am I right, or am I reading the Table 6-5 totally wrong? Greater Bore = bigger, larger size bore, thus a size increase to damage should happen. That's why it's an 11th level innovation.
Thoughts?
I think the values from before are superior. 1d10 and 2d8 without rifling, 2d6 and 3d6 with rifling. This keeps the spiky vs consistent damage, plus the combination of the two actually gives a slightly higher max damage. Works better, in my opinion.
I think the values from before are superior. 1d10 and 2d8 without rifling, 2d6 and 3d6 with rifling. This keeps the spiky vs consistent damage, plus the combination of the two actually gives a slightly higher max damage. Works better, in my opinion.
True. Consider it done.
Alright, I'm posting version 1.5.0. I think we have most of the major, and probably minor issues fixed now.
Now its up to the PF Developers to choose wisely. Enjoy!
Maxx, Odentin, even though I've posted the new version, if there are anything we need to still change, I can do so and just reupload the pdf.
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No need for it. The beta gunslinger will probably be out this Monday, and it's not an euphemism to say this topic didn't provoke any stampede into the forums - even if it's undeniable that a lot of work was put in it.
So yes, there are still things to change for balance, but I don't really feel like it just now, and I don't think this will change soon or later.
+1