|
Well, I do cross fingers and hope the beta will take into account what has been written there. It would be a shame to lose so much good ideas and potential builds. For example, guns throwing bolas and nets make these underused weapons shine a bit more, gun-kata makes the gunslinger even more surprising, sniper does heavy damage in a short time and from far away... and this variety allows for interesting character concepts.
The list seems really big, but after all this is Ultimate Combat. I don't see why we wouldn't give as much builds of Gunslinger as possible when all other classes will already have got so much variety with Core + APG + future UC. I'd like to see the gunslinger as a semi-steampunk new base class actually, it is different enough from others to be made a new class and still similar enough to not be just a weird big archetype or something too different from other core and base classes. The 1.4 (and 1.5) was fashioned with the two ideas in mind : fighter archetype and/or new base class. The choice is in the designers hands...
Hey guy's i have no problem posing a 1.5. I still have some things to work out from Maxximilius's previous posts. So, if we can get most of the things figured and fixed, I'll just post a 1.5.
Here's conmments to your post upthread Maxx!
Hack and Shoot…I think the best wording for this deed would be something like "the gunslinger….
Keep Them DancingDoes the ranged attack made in melee provoke opportunity ? I guess this one would work fine with the gun-kata chain = Melee attack/Ranged attack on melee/Ranged attack on melee + keep it dancing/Opportunity with off-hand + trip, target tripped,/Off-hand melee attack/Off-hand ranged attack against another enemy.
Here’s a clearer rewording.
Pistol-whipShould include the mention "to avoid being tripped back" after "the gunslinger can drop her weapon as a free action". But I love it even more now that you use your dexterity to attack (if you got the Finesse feat) and trip. And with the loss of dexterity bonus to damage, I guess you can say it's far from OP.
Added the italicized.
Piercing shotAre the 1d6 precision damage ?
What’s the difference with precision damage? Nevermind, I found it. It can’t be multiplied during a confirmed critical. I would say YES, it is precision damage. It shouldn’t be affected by a critical. I also added a provision to the extra damage…“for each additional grit point the gunslinger spends beyond the first (to a maximum of her Dexterity modifier), each target takes an additional 1d6 of precision damage.” However, I’m wondering if the gunslinger should only be able to spend a max of 1 additional grit point to gain a max of an additional +1d6 precision damage. What do you think?
Resolute ShotShould look more like this : "If the gunslinger has Rapid Shot, she gains one additional attack roll at her highest attack bonus and gets a -2 malus to all attack rolls during the Resolute Shot. If the gunslinger has Manyshot, she gains an additional attack roll at her highest attack bonus during the resolute shot."
I know that it essentially allows the Gunslinger to shoot full-attacks (and even apply Rapid and Multishot feats) without reloading several times per round and to count only once any DR, though level 8 seems a bit... odd. But after all, you get only once any alchemical bonus, etc, so I guess it's worth the wait. I think level 6 and 7 are playable and can even full-attack without too much problems.
I’m OK with it at 6th level, since that’s when the gunslinger gets 2 attacks per round. I just moved it to 8th to balance the deed numbers. We can put it back to 6th, but I’d like to swap it with another one from 6th level to replace the level 8 vacancy. Is there anything at lvl 6 that should maybe be level 8 instead?
I added your suggestion. I Think I had done that somewhere in my revamping, but with all the revamping I did, I may have accidently deleted it or not saved and so the old version remained.
Resolute Shot (Ex): … “If the gunslinger has Rapid Shot, she gains one additional attack roll at her highest attack bonus and gets a -2 penalty to all attack rolls during the Resolute Shot. If the gunslinger has Manyshot, she gains one additional attack roll at her highest attack bonus during the Resolute Shot. If any of these extra attacks hit, she again rolls damage normally and adds it to her Resolute Shot’s total damage. No additional shots are actually discharged during the extra attacks granted by Multishot or Rapid Shot, and only determine extra damage dice for the gunslinger’s Resolute Shot’s total damage.”
Sniper shot… the +1 to threat range should be applied after any other effect, not before…
Done! +1
Alchemical Gun…change it to = "Whenever the gunslinger attempts to craft more alchemical shots than allowed, there is a cumulative 20% chance that all alchemical shots will become unstable and explode in a 5-foot radius burst, centered on the gunslinger, and deal 1d6 damage of corresponding energy type each (no save)." … I suggest the following : "Crafting one alchemical bullet requires five minutes of work (see below) at negligible cost, from a single dose of powder and a shot."
Done! +2
Deadly MenaceI have difficulties to see how it stacks with Blunderbuss Canon. Does not the blunderbuss deal burst damage ? If that's so, you can't do critical hits with it. Or does it means you can burst at short range (I suggest the same than burning hands at best) and "attack" each enemy in the burst range at your best bonus?
How’s this? Is this what you’re looking for?
Utility Gun :I love it ! 8D
Maybe that there should be a feat allowing to use one innovation on your gun as if you were a gunslinger of your level. Batman ftw.
Glad you like it. It came to me late one night to add grapple hook to the list.
PeacemakerI definitely don't like this one. Free bull rush at each shot with massive bonuses (and strenght shouldn't even be taken into account for a ranged attack that isn't thrown) will only slow the game and be annoying.
What would you suggest? I wanted something good, and powerful, much like the old “peacemaker” revolvers. How about this?
Essentially, the gunslinger gains the Greater Penetrating Strike feat each time she uses Peacemaker, plus a possible staggered condition. Or perhaps it should be shaken instead of stunned? Not sure. Ideas?
BlunderblastNow I see how it works. I guess this isn't so overpowered if the damage are the straight dice base after the first hit. With a +5 blunderbuss canon that you can reload fast enough (not counting additional damage sources) and hitting three times, it would be something like 1d12+5 + 2d12 + 3d12 ?
Yes, that’s exactly how it works. Crazy bada** damage if you get multiple consecutive hits, but at high level, targets tend to have high AC. Mind you I guess it’s still touch attacks isn’t it?
By the way, does any magical enhancement apply to ONE barrel only, or to the full weapon when you take More Dakka ?
That’s a good question. I would say only one. Otherwise I think it’d be considered a double/triple weapon. A sword with the blades needs both blades to be enchanted. Thus, a double or triple barrel pistol could have a +4 barrel, with two other nonmagical barrels. But then again, I don’t know.
Creating magic double-headed weapons is treated as creating two weapons when determining cost, time, XP, and special abilities.
By this I’d say each barrel is considered a “head” of a weapon. Shouldn’t be any special concessions to a firearm.
I also added this new 3rd level innovation.
|
|
I tried to make it fast, took me almost two hours and half to read/write/rewrite/think/compare. Hope I didn't do any mistake, it's 3:40 AM here... xD
Hack and Shoot (Ex):
Yay ! Clearer, better, cool to imagine, balanced, and even the pun-name of the deed describes it perfectly. :)
Keep Them Dancing (Ex):
Should be : "By spending 2 grits points, the gunslinger can, by a standard action, fire one single shot with her firearm into melee against an adjacent target without provoking attacks of opportunity." (Precision added on the fact this is a firearm that is needed to use this deed. :))
Resolute Shot (Ex):
I've got only one problem with this deed right now, beside the fact that it could be level 6... I'm wondering if Manyshot and Rapid Shot should apply to a Resolute Shot. We already count any DR only once, and you can improve greatly your damage when comparing to a simple bow. As I see the guns, they hit easily and make heavy damage, but shoot less often by round. Except with TWF, but the maluses and range of double-wielded pistols are ugly to compensate this.
Eventually, you could add instead that if the gunslinger got the Double Shot Deed, she can make one more attack against the same target from another barrel, but that this attack and all damage are rolled separately from the single Resolute Shot, as normal. It would make one heavy hit and one lesser shot at the same time, pretty much what we imagine when reading Double Shot's description. Rapid Shot is when you can shoot fast enough to add one bullet/arrow, and by nature the gunslinger don't reload fast enough to take it without a lot of feats, deeds and innovations that put the reload time to a free action.So, rapid shot : ok, though it originally needs a free action ro reload the firearm fast enough ; and manyshot : no, except from the Double Shot deed, and even then, it's a separate additional attack that can suffer from any existing DR (but also add one alchemical damage dice).
Deadly Menace:
Doesn't a blunderbuss already deals it's damage to all targets in it's burst area ? It's this part where I don't see the difference with or without Deadly Menace. Or maybe with Deadly Menace, the targets now don't get a reflex save if they had one before ? How does exactly a blunderduss attack right now : is this a burst like Burning Hands with reflex save ?
Also, again, the +1 to threat-range is ugly. At best, it should stack BUT be added after any other effect increasing the range, so that the maximum with Sniper Shot would be 17-20x4... which is really, really, wowomgwtf.Glad you like it. It came to me late one night to add grapple hook to the list.
You probably saw the shadow of a bat in the moon this night, may Batman bless you.
Peacemaker:
The perforating effect seems good, though since Greater Penetrating Strike should have heavy prerequisites, maybe something like this may be more balanced : "Any shot made with this firearm ignores up to 5 points of Damage Reduction. You can also use a peacemaker gun to trade attacks for ranged Bull Rush attempts. When using a peacemaker this way, the gunslinger must hold the weapon in two-hands. She adds any bonus to attack she got with her firearm to her CMB, and is considered two size larger when determining her CMB to oppose her target’s CMD. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance."
I don't know what you think about it, again I'm not pro about balance at high level but is seems good enough for me... I kept the versatility of your two versions, lowered the effect to not give the equivalent of a lot of free feats and made it so that you have to choose what to do with your attack roll (and can't TWF ranged bull-rushs, since these are big guns to do this kind of effect, but considering TWF maluses maybe this should be possible since it would already be much harder). Essentially, at level 15, it would probably give something like +15 BAB, +5 Weapon enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus, +3 Weapon Training, +2 Size = +26 to Bull-rush to her first attack, +21 to the second, etc.
Considering she would also have got approximatically 10+15+8+1 = 34 to CMD, it's not so hard to push back or make fall prone at least once another combat class by pushing it on it's friend behind. And at worst, its always useful with DR overpass...
Blunderblast
I don't know how powerful this could be, sincerely. I guess it's still a nice idea to put on the .pdf, but I can't really see how much influence this would have on DPR since you trade bonus damage on additional dices that can get incredibly high but also suck a lot. And again, I have a hard time figuring how you ruled the way the base blunderbuss works, so... :p
By this I’d say each barrel is considered a “head” of a weapon. Shouldn’t be any special concessions to a firearm.
I agree. :)
Also, "Ranged Sight:", seems like a good little innovation, clear, useful and simple. Maybe a bit too good since it gives a Weapon Focus for any firearm you get this on, but it's also another innovation less on your weapon if you take this one instead of another, so...Globally, the only issues I would have with the 1.4/1.5 right now is the easiness of improving and stacking your range increments upgrades, which should stay a heavy weakness for anyone else than a straight sniper build (musket or pistols), and the capacity to stack several kinds of damage upgrades, to get something like 3d6+7 17-20x4 at mid-to-high levels. But it's what these topics and suggestions are for. ;)
I tried to make it fast, took me almost two hours and half to read/write/rewrite/think/compare. Hope I didn't do any mistake, it's 3:40 AM here... xD
Really? GO TO BED YOU CRAZY GUY!!!
Nite!
I tried to make it fast, took me almost two hours and half to read/write/rewrite/think/compare. Hope I didn't do any mistake, it's 3:40 AM here... xD
Hack and Shoot (Ex):
Yay ! Clearer, better, cool to imagine, balanced, and even the pun-name of the deed describes it perfectly. :)
Good!
Keep Them Dancing (Ex):
Should be : "By spending 2 grits points, the gunslinger can, by a standard action, fire one single shot with her firearm into melee against an adjacent target without provoking attacks of opportunity." (Precision added on the fact this is a firearm that is needed to use this deed. :))
Excellent! = Changed.
Resolute Shot (Ex):
…So, rapid shot : ok, though it originally needs a free action or reload the firearm fast enough ; and manyshot : no, except from the Double Shot deed, and even then, it's a separate additional attack that can suffer from any existing DR (but also add one alchemical damage dice)....
So, something like this?
…If the gunslinger has Rapid Shot, she gains one additional attack roll at her highest attack bonus. However, the gunslinger receives a -2 penalty to this extra attack and all other attack rolls she makes during her Resolute Shot. If this extra attack hits, she rolls damage normally and adds it to her Resolute Shot’s total damage. If this attack hits, she again rolls damage normally and adds it to her Resolute Shot’s total damage. No additional shots are actually discharged from extra attack granted by the Rapid Shot feat. , and only determines extra damage die for the gunslinger’s Resolute Shot’s total damage.
If a critical hit is confirmed on the gunslinger’s first attack roll, or on any of the subsequent attack rolls, including one granted by Rapid Shot, critical damage is then calculated for each confirmed critical and added to the total damage of the gunslinger’s Resolute Shot. The gunslinger can only use a musket or some other long barreled firearm when making a Resolute Shot.
If the gunslinger is using the Alchemical Gun innovation, any energy damage dealt by the shot is added to the first attack roll only. Resolute Shot can only be used with a musket or other long-barreled firearm. The gunslinger must have the Rifled Barrel innovation and be at least 8th level to select this deed.
Deadly Menace:
….
One of the problems is we have NO IDEA what the stats are for a blunderbuss, or any other firearm other than pistol and musket. That’s REALLY annoying. Perhaps we can go with something like this instead. Basic and simple, but enhances the chance of scoring critical damage, regardless of the type of weapon..
You probably saw the shadow of a bat in the moon this night, may Batman bless you.
Nanah-nanah-nanah-nanah-nanah-nanah-nanah-nanah…..BATMAN!!!
Peacemaker:
I like it, but I think we’ll go with a slight alteration, to put the effect somewhere between Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike.
Blunder Blast
I don't know how powerful this could be, sincerely. I guess it's still a nice idea to put on the .pdf, but I can't really see how much influence this would have on DPR since you trade bonus damage on additional dices that can get incredibly high but also suck a lot. And again, I have a hard time figuring how you ruled the way the base blunderbuss works, so... :p
Like I said above, I don’t. That’s the annoying part. They should have given us all the possible firearms from the beginning.
Also, "Ranged Sight:", seems like a good little innovation, clear, useful and simple. Maybe a bit too good since it gives a Weapon Focus for any firearm you get this on, but it's also another innovation less on your weapon if you take this one instead of another, so...
I think it’s minor in the big scheme.
|
|
Resolute Shot
About Rapid Shot and Crossbows/guns, I found something interesting on the subject. It's for 3.5 edition, but this feat works the same in Pathfinder.
http://www.3rdedition.org/agimimnon/viewer.asp?ID=34
So this is what I would suggest for the second part of description :
"If the gunslinger has Rapid Shot, she can reload her weapon before or at the end of the resolute shot one step faster (full-round action becomes standard action, standard action becomes move action, move action becomes swift action, swift action becomes free action). However, by using Rapid Shot this way, the gunslinger receives a -2 penalty to all attack rolls she makes during this round. If the gunslinger has the Double Shot deed, she can make an additional attack at her best bonus during the resolute shot against the same target, though this attack is resolved as a separate bullet, and can suffer again from any damage reduction. Critical hits in a resolute shot are calculated as normal, separately from each other.
If the gunslinger is using the Alchemical Gun innovation in a Resolute Shot, any energy damage dealt by an alchemical bullet is added to the first attack roll only. Resolute Shot can only be used with a musket or other long-barreled firearm. The gunslinger must have the Rifled Barrel innovation and be at least 8th level to select this deed."
It seems good for me. If you use Resolute Shot + Double Shot, you still have to reload two barrels at the end of your turn - one faster, the other like normal, but since you have to use the firearm with the slowest reloading time for this deed...
The gunslinger has developed a deadly innovation to increase her firearm’s chance for critical damage. The gunslinger gains a +2 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made to confirm critical hits. This innovation stacks with the Critical Focus feat. The gunslinger must have either the Greater Bore innovation (if using a pistol or musket) or have the Blunderbuss Cannon innovation (or wield a blunderbuss) and be at least 15th level to select this innovation.
Following this feat logic :
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/critical-focus-combat(I would say that you can even go to a +4 circumstance bonus (because it stacks with everything else). +4 is a level 9 feat capacity, at level 15, I would say you can get it again once for the cost of one class capacity. This way, we get a weapon that got at best 18-20x4 when spending 1 grit, but with one feat and one innovation, it goes up to +8 to confirm a critical hit... and often with a touch AC. By focusing this way, we get dangerous "close"-range long-barreled weapons that doesn't attack a lot of times, but make any shot count.)
EDIT => Actually, +2 seems good. Touch AC, Vital Strike, Sniper Shot, Eagle Eye... all of this makes any critical hit awesome enough with this kind of build.
"The gunslinger has developed a larger caliber barrel and shot that penetrates the defenses of her target. Any attacks made by the gunslinger with this firearm ignores up to 5 points of damage reduction, including damage reduction without a type (such as DR 10/—). Whenever the gunslinger scores a critical hit, her opponent becomes staggered for 2 rounds. A successful Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ the gunslinger’s level + the gunslinger’s Dexterity modifier) reduces the duration to 1 round. This effect does not stack, though additional critical hits add to the effect’s duration. Alternatively, the gunslinger can use her firearm to trade attacks for ranged Bull Rush attempts. Whenever the gunslinger uses a Peacemaker firearm in this way, she must hold the weapon in two-hands. She then adds any bonuses to attack she has with her firearm to her CMB, and is considered two size larger when determining her CMB to oppose her target’s CMD. Any opponent that is unable to move back due to a wall or some other obstacle is knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. The gunslinger must have the Greater Bore innovation to select this master innovation."
Damage reduction "without a type" was already included in my version, even if I didn't make any specific precision about this like the real feats do. ;)
Right now, it's 1/2 the Greater Penetrating Shot, plus 1/4 the Staggering critical feat (1/2 level instead of full BAB, 2 rounds max instead of 5), plus approximatically 1 high-level feat, considering the bull-rush effects. It looks like two feats at once, but at this level, some stop the time and others get a DR 5/- AND a feat, so...For any more innovation on blunderbuss, we should wait what the official gun will be. :)
+1 Maxx. Changes made. They all make sense too.
So...no word from Odentin for a while huh?
|
|
Since I fear your almighty smiting, I'll not tell what hour it is here. (3:50 AM, omg.)
Note that the link I found could be a solution for any reloading problem the gunslinger got, since it essentially makes Rapid Shot the equivalent of an additional "reloading action" during the round instead of an additional attack.
I really prefer Pickle Shot, but if the designers read this and find this way interesting and simpler, this is a possibility they can envisage. I just hope we'll not have again to take the same builds and same feats just to be able to make full-attacks... I don't want to have all gunslingers spending a ton of deeds and feets into things like signature deed + lightning reload in EACH build just to be able to not suck at their job.
Thus the innovations/deeds/feats that resolve the problem in different ways and allow for different builds without losing in efficience. I'll probably play a gun-kata variant in a future game, and I want to improve this way when gaining levels, and not have to take must-have-or-you'll-suck deeds and feats. There will always be redundant options, especially lock and load or Breech loader, but these are low level and don't make you starving for other capacities since you can always spend a feat for another deed or innovation - or even a deed for a feat.
I'm around. Haven't really been in the right state ofmind to do a huge post. Maybe when I get home tomorrow...
I'm curious as to why the gunslinger can only make a specific number of cartridges per day? Can a tenth level gunslinger with a +6 dex modifier make 16 cartridges, not use them, and then have access to 32 on the next day? I can understand that paper cartridges don't hold up well to abuse.
Perhaps upgrade the cartridge ability at a higher level. Call it Brass, reduce the cost of the cartridge by reusing brass, and allow more to be craftable/day or any number...since they hold up better than paper cartridges.
Also, a greater innovation, or at least a higher level one, for pistols could be a speed loader. An accessory that is pre loaed with rounds that takes a free action to drop in. This could also be a new cylinder for the gun...pop one out and put another in. Gun would have to have the revolver innovation first, of course.
Maxx and Odentin have had much better ideas, these were just a few that I thought of off the top of my head. I'm no designer or writer, just a fan of gunslingers in general.
All and all, I like it more than the alpha. I would never have played one as written, but I'd very much like to play this version.
|
|
All and all, I like it more than the alpha. I would never have played one as written, but I'd very much like to play this version.
I'm glad you like it. :)
I guess you can post a 1.5 now, the only things that would require more change in the 1.6 would be the blunderbuss, any deed/innovation that improves range increment, or any issue that comes up when writing builds and playtesting a bit... and I'm not including the changes from a potential official beta.
I'm curious as to why the gunslinger can only make a specific number of cartridges per day? Can a tenth level gunslinger with a +6 dex modifier make 16 cartridges, not use them, and then have access to 32 on the next day? I can understand that paper cartridges don't hold up well to abuse.
Perhaps upgrade the cartridge ability at a higher level. Call it Brass, reduce the cost of the cartridge by reusing brass, and allow more to be craftable/day or any number...since they hold up better than paper cartridges.
The number/day is negotiable. I have no idea how long such a cartridge takes to make, and in an adventuring situation, it becomes more difficult to do it. Cartridges don't "go bad" like the alchenmist's bombs. The alchemy of a gunslinger is pure science and technology, not magic related.
As for the upgrate, I had thought about that too, and just rollingit into the "Advanced Ballistics" class feature. Something like "At 12th level, the gunslinger can craft cartridges with a reusable metal sleeve, and cylindrical metal bullets (in place of round shot) for her cartridges."
Things for quick and easy reload, like the 6-shooter clips used for fast reloading you see in the current cop shows wouldn't necessarily need to be an innovation. Could easily be an item added to the gunslinger's equipment list, available for when the 12th level metal cartridges are available? I know a lot of this stuff is advanced, but when you have magic that can blow up a castle, I don't see tech advances like these, that are part of such a narrow focus of study (gunslinger armaments and innovations), would break things. It'd be up tp the GM to restrict further things outside the gunslinger capabilities.
I'm around. Haven't really been in the right state ofmind to do a huge post. Maybe when I get home tomorrow...
Just checking, can't have one of our thread founders just vanish on us. 8D
Lol no worries. I just have a good deal to say, and haven't really felt like typing it out. If 1.5 is coming, though, I'll do it when I get home from work...
Hey, did some net searching and found the following searches, both wikipedia and just image search were informative. So search the following if interested:
musket
pistol
revolver
revolver rifle
flint lock
arquebus
blunderbuss
hand cannon
nock volley gun
superposed load
hand mortar
I hope to put 1.5 together tonight and post it to my mediafire.
Also, following was cool too, from another thread. 4-barrel shot gun anyone? Ideas, ideas, ideas.
|
|
The number/day is negotiable. I have no idea how long such a cartridge takes to make, and in an adventuring situation, it becomes more difficult to do it. Cartridges don't "go bad" like the alchenmist's bombs. The alchemy of a gunslinger is pure science and technology, not magic related.
Envisageable solution, using a mechanic similar to the alchemical shots :
=> "Cartridges : The gunslinger has developed a process by which she can more quickly and efficiently reload her firearm. The gunslinger can create special paper cartridges, pre-packed with black powder and shot. When used, these cartridges improve the gunslinger’s reloading time by one action : a full-round action to a standard action, a standard action to a move action, a move action to a swift action, and a swift action to a free action. Each day, the gunslinger can create cartridges by doing a unique Craft (Firearm) check. For each 5 points on her craft check, she can create one cartridge. Crafting one cartridge requires five minutes of work at negligible cost from a unique dose of powder and one bullet that can't be recovered - though, if any, the bullet keeps all it's magical and material attributes. These cartridges are fragile, and suffer a cumulative -2 to attack made with them and a +1 to misfire by day they are not in use after the first because of moisture, friction, and any elemental or stocking hazard. On a natural 20 on the craft check, a gunslinger crafts instead masterwork cartridges. Masterwork cartridges don't get damaged by time.
If the gunslinger got the Alchemical Gun innovation, she can create alchemical cartridges by spending two bullets and two doses of powder with ten minutes of work per cartridge. These alchemical cartridges are counted as cartridges when determining their reload speed, and alchemical shots in the gunslinger's limit per day. Thus, their alchemical effect vanishes after 24h."
Note that this version encourages to craft short-term ammunitions that can even be enhanced with alchemical shot, instead of the "Ok, I craft thousand ammunitions and retire to make a fortune" effect. It is possible to craft durable cartridges, but this is hard and expensive at best. If you craft normal cartridges at level 6, it's +6 points into craft +int. bonus +6 bonus from gunslinger levels +2 for masterwork tools = +15 to craft. With a 15 on the dice roll, it's 6 cartridges that become virtually useless after too much time - so you'd better not craft too much, because good bullets are wasted by just waiting.
Or maybe that Ballistics should just allow the gunslinger to reload faster just by skill, like "a number of times per day equal to her Dexterity bonus" because this is really complicated to simulate alchemy and technology instead of putting a magic limitation.
Don't forget that we already got several ways to reload quickly (pistols, muskets) or to make economies on shots (muskets). Maybe this innovation is too redundant with Breech Loader/Resolute Shot and would allow for rule abuse...
EDIT :
Quad barrel shotgun.
I actually lol'd in approximately (which I probably wrote several times "approximatically" in a pure frenglish tradition, sorry about this) 1,5 seconds. Good job, sir.
For any other kinds of weapons, I think we can already simulate them with innovations (Blunderbuss + Innovation Mastery + More Dakka + Mooooore Dakka !, Moooooore DAKKA !, MOOOOOORE DAKKA MUHAHAHA :crazy:) , so maybe we should wait for the beta and the weapons it will introduce before going further on this topic. ;)GOD, (which I haven't as an atheist, but pick yours, I'll take Zeus for the form) I hope this topic is seen by a designer, or I'll make everything explode, then re-build it just to explode it again. 8D
I made some changes to the cartridge blurt from above. I don't see why doing alchemical cartridges would cost 2 shot and powder doses, but I think the extra 5 minutes to craft a singe cartridge is sufficient.
Each day, the gunslinger can create cartridges by doing a unique Craft (Firearm) check. For every 5 points on her Craft check, she can create one cartridge. Crafting one cartridge requires five minutes of work at negligible cost from one shot and a unique dose of powder that can't be recovered. However, the shot keeps all its alchemical and material attributes. These cartridges are fragile and are subject to moisture, friction, the rigors of travel, and any elemental or stocking hazard. Thus, for each additional day cartridges remain unused beyond their day of creation, they suffer a cumulative -2 penalty to their attack rolls and a +1 increase to their misfire value. If the gunslinger rolls a natural 20 on her Craft check, she crafts masterwork cartridges instead, which are unsusceptible to the rigors of travel and time.
If the gunslinger has the Alchemical Gun innovation, she can create alchemical cartridges with ten minutes of work per cartridge, at negligible cost from one shot, and a unique dose of powder that can't be recovered. These alchemical cartridges are counted as normal cartridges when determining their reload time, and alchemical shot in the gunslinger's limit per day. However, due to their alchemical instability, their alchemical effect vanishes after 24 hours and they revert back to normal cartridges, even if the Craft check results in a masterwork cartridges.
At 12th level, the gunslinger can craft cartridges with reusable brass or steel sleeves and cylindrical pointed bullets as a replacements for round shot. Cartridges come in the single shot (muskets and pistol) or scatter shot (blunderbuss) variety.
Also, for "+ More Dakka + Mooooore Dakka !, Moooooore DAKKA !, MOOOOOORE DAKKA MUHAHAHA", check out the nock volley gun on wikipedia!!! 7 barrels of simultaneous blasting goodness. OH YEAH!!
Question?
Gunmage Deed (Grit)
The gunslinger can reload any firearm with a wand containing a spell with a ranged touch attack.
Prerequisite: Grit and innovation class features, 5 ranks in Use Magic Device.
Benefit: As long as you have at least 2 grit remaining, you are considered to have this spell in your spell list, and can activate it like a wand, using the attack bonuses you apply to your firearm, such as those provided by the Weapon Focus feat or the Gun Training class feature. If the firearm explodes, the wand is destroyed and inflicts damage in a burst equal to the number of remaining charges x ½ the spell level of the wand. If you are a magus with the Wand Wielder arcana, you can take this deed without needing any grit, and thus use your gun as part of Spell Combat.
So??? How does this work? Is the gun actually loaded with the wand in the muzzle and activated via firing the gun, resulting in the gun discharging a ray spell? Or is a wand charge expended to "reload" the firearm with a single shot of the ray spell? Or, by actually loading the gun with the wand, the spellcaster can "fire" the spell from her gun, expending a spell slot of the appropriate spell level of the spell in the wand, without actually using up a charge from the wand? Anyone?
Sorry another thought.
I posted our change on Gun Training to be just like that of the fighter, but selection of individual firearm instead of groups on a nother thread. I though for a moment and said wait? Is it fair the Fighter gets those bonuses to mutltpile groups of waepons while the gunslinger gets it only to a handful of firearm? So I thought, to even out the lack of the gunslinger gaining those bonuses to a bunch of weapons, maybe she should add back the +Dex mod to her damage? However, the gunslinger has all her deeds, innovations, etc. Does the damage similarity or difference with gun/weapon training really matter in the whole scheme? Should the gunslinger have that extra damage (Dex mod) to off set the lack of multiple weapon groups and to stress her specialization in firearms? Or is that lack balanced/made up by her other class features?
EDIT: You know, looking at at all our posts, they really need to create a "chat" capability so we who like to toss ideas back and forth could do it more quickly than a post every couple hours or so. Oh well. Guess that's what FB or Yahoo chat is for.
|
|
I made some changes to the cartridge blurt from above. I don't see why doing alchemical cartridges would cost 2 shot and powder doses, but I think the extra 5 minutes to craft a singe cartridge is sufficient.
I probably made a mistake about the two-doses thing, only 10 minutes and one dose is good.
Though, you shouldn't remove the mention that the bullet keeps it's magical enhancement (if any). By specifying that it keeps "alchemical" and "material" attributes, one would believe any "magical" effect (+1 Fire bullet, +5 Cold bullet...) just disappears in the process - or wonder if it really does so since this presumed exception seems odd.Question?
As I thought about it, it reminded me of the weapon that appears in a Paizo scenario called "Entombed with the Pharaohs", and I thought it would be perfect to bring it back for this class and the magus :
Wand Rifle
This wooden-barreled device can be loaded with up to two separate wands,
enabling its wielder to cycle between them as a free action as desired. The rifle’s slender barrel provides a +1 circumstance bonus on ranged touch attacks with discharged rays. Wand rifles are frequently utfitted with serrated bayonets, which share the statistics of short swords. Using a wand rifle properly (either with a ray or with its bayonet) requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. For the purpose of adding magical enhancements, the wand rifle’s bayonet is always considered masterwork. The wand rifle itself is not truly a weapon and cannot be enhanced as one. Kaldis Blacksquall, one of the Pathfinder’s most secretive gearfitters, created the original wand rifle.
Blacksquall was found dead the morning after "Scepter" left the pathfinders. A wand rifle costs 400 gp and weighs 3 pounds.
As Gunmage was written, vaguely inspired by the previous quote, it allowed to litterally LOAD a wand as a bullet in a barrel, and activate it by a standard action when shooting. So, this allows someone possessing a wand filled with a spell that inflicts a ranged touch attack to launch the spell from the wand, adding to this attack any bonuses he can apply to his firearms attacks rolls, even if the Gunslinger isn't supposed to cast this spell. He still has to make a Use Magic Device check though.
EDIT :
I though for a moment and said wait? Is it fair the Fighter gets those bonuses to mutltpile groups of waepons while the gunslinger gets it only to a handful of firearm? So I thought, to even out the lack of the gunslinger gaining those bonuses to a bunch of weapons, maybe she should add back the +Dex mod to her damage?
From the time you changed it, I made all the previous suggestions under the assumption that you chose to finally not add the dexterity bonus to damage, please don't ruin everything by bringing it back, it's between -4 to -6 damage per bullet, so it would be hard to try to balance everything again. xD
I'd say, let's keep it like you made it for now, and we'll change it later if needed (thus, if the beta keeps this mechanism from alpha and if it's more balanced this way). Right now, it's far less additional damage than in alpha and 1.4, but it's also a lot more versatility, and you can improve your raw damage dices from several ways thanks to all innovations/deeds. Between a Vital Strike with 1d12+1d12 +10 and another with 3d6+3d6 +3, I even think that the DPR is just a bit higher for the last one, and the last one needs several deeds/innovations.
I probably made a mistake about the two-doses thing, only 10 minutes and one dose is good.
Though, you shouldn't remove the mention that the bullet keeps it's magical enhancement (if any). By specifying that it keeps "alchemical" and "material" attributes, one would believe any "magical" effect (+1 Fire bullet, +5 Cold bullet...) just disappears in the process - or wonder if it really does so since this presumed exception seems odd.
Uh, now I understand how it was meant. Consider it reinserted/fixed.
As I thought about it, it reminded me of the weapon that appears in a Paizo scenario called "Entombed with the Pharaohs", and I thought it would be perfect to bring it back for this class and the magus :Wand Rifle
This wooden-barreled device can be loaded with up to two separate wands...
So, is this equipment or a weapon?
...I'd say, let's keep it like you made it for now, and we'll change it later if needed (thus, if the beta keeps this mechanism from alpha and if it's more balanced this way). Right now, it's far less additional damage than in alpha and 1.4, but it's also a lot more versatility, and you can improve your raw damage dices from several ways thanks to all innovations/deeds. Between a Vital Strike with 1d12+1d12 +10 and another with 3d6+3d6 +3, I even think that the DPR is just a bit higher for the last one, and the last one needs several deeds/innovations.
That's what I thought, I just needed a second opinion.
Here's the slightly reworded Gunmage Deed, changes hilighted.
The gunslinger can reload any firearm with a wand containing a spell with a ranged touch attack.
Prerequisite: Grit and innovation class features, arcane spellcaster or 5 ranks in Use Magic Device.
Benefit: As long as you have at least 2 grit points remaining, you can load a wand with a ranged touch attack spell into the muzzle of your firearm, and activate it normally, using the attack bonuses you apply to your firearm, such as those provided by the Weapon Focus feat or the Gun Training class feature. If the firearm explodes, the wand is destroyed and inflicts damage in a burst equal to the number of remaining charges x ½ the spell level of the wand. If you are a magus with the Wand Wielder arcana, you can take this deed without needing any grit, and thus use your gun as part of Spell Combat.
Correct?
I threw this list together earlier to day, and added the wand rifle to it. We can include OR exclude this from the 1.5. Just thought it might be good to show the devs some additional ideas outside the character class itself.
BTW, if any devs are reading, you should add the blunderbuss to the firearm list.
GUNSLINGER GEAR
Item Cost Weight
Cartridge box
25 capacity 3 gp 1 lb.
50 capacity 5 gp 1 lb.
Firearm Ammunition
Bullet (50) 250 gp 5 lbs.
Cartridge, paper (50) 600 gp 10 lbs.
Cartridge, brass or iron (50) 1,500 gp 15 lbs.
Shot (50) 250 gp 5 lbs.
Gunsmith tools 100 gp 15 lbs.
Powder, black (50 doses) 250 gp 5 lbs.
Powder horn 2 gp 1 lb.
Ramrod 5 gp 2 lbs.
Shot pouch 1 gp ½ lb.
Sight, ranged 200 gp 1 lb.
Wand rifle 400 gp 3 lbs.
Gunsmith Tools: These include a shot/bullet mold, ball puller screw (removing jammed balls), worm (defouling the barrel), scraper, cotton cleaning patches, cork barrel plug, tongues, melting pan, small cauldron, cauldron stand, ladle (measures powder or ingredients), repairing tools, calipers, mortar and pistil, trimming blade.
Wand Rifle: This wooden-barreled device can be loaded with up to two separate wands, enabling its wielder to cycle between them as a free action as desired. The rifle’s slender barrel provides a +1 circumstance bonus on ranged touch attacks with discharged rays. Wand rifles are frequently outfitted with serrated bayonets (see pg. 177 in the Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide. Using a wand rifle properly (either with a ray or with its bayonet) requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. For the purpose of adding magical enhancements, the wand rifle’s bayonet is always considered masterwork. The wand rifle itself is not truly a weapon and cannot be enhanced as one. Characters with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearm) feat can wield a wand rifle without any penalty, while nonspellcasters must have ranks in Use Magic Device skill to activate the wand effects.
|
|
I think it's good, except for the explosion effect. Maybe just add the mention "by misfire" after "If the firearm explodes", and the burst range (5 feet including the gunslinger/magus should be good, with a dexterity save equal to 10 + spell level + spellcaster level for half damage).
The gunslinger will be best avoiding to play too much with magic and explosions...
Beware with the wand rifle though, it's still copyrighted by Paizo. Bring it back to their memory as a useful weapon wimilar to a gun but allowing to cast a spell from a wand with any firearm bonus is good enough, I don't know if you should freely copy-paste the description in a public place and in the public pdf. I hesitated before doing so, and I'll maybe censure it if I can edit back my post.
A good little summarize of the item ("Gun firing only spells from wands with a bonus like a firearm"), and where it was put on ("Name of the scenario") should be enough. Same for the special items (I'm not for cartridges you can buy, considering how fast it turns bad), we'd better wait for the official beta to see what will come up.
And if the beta doesn't vary a lot from the alpha, well... I don't think we'll change this even with a wonderful 2.4 class, since a massive rebuild including innovation mechanisms and others, if they weren't included in any official version, would be less than probable. I hope we'll see something interesting even if this isn't at all like this topic's version, but I doubt we'll have as much variety - and if we do, congrats, because it would be a good and impressive work.
Since no one will playtest the 1.4/1.5 enough to make it really playable someday, we'd better not put too much faith and acknowledge that this discussion is a bit for nothing, after all. It's already nice (but smart) from Paizo to ask the public's opinion, and so we at least had the chance to help.
The gunslinger will be best avoiding to play too much with magic and explosions...
INDEEEEED!!
How's this.
The gunslinger can reload any firearm with a wand containing a spell with a ranged touch attack.
Prerequisite: Grit and innovation class features, arcane spellcaster or 5 ranks in Use Magic Device.
Benefit: As long as you have at least 2 grit points remaining, you can load a wand with a ranged touch attack spell into the muzzle of your firearm, and activate it normally, using the attack bonuses you apply to your firearm, such as those provided by the Weapon Focus feat or the Gun Training class feature. If the firearm explodes by misfire, the wand is destroyed and inflicts damage in a 5-foot burst equal to the number of remaining charges × ½ the spell level of the wand. Those caught in the burst (including the wielder) can make a Reflex save (DC 10 + the spell’s level + the caster’s level) for half damage. If you are a magus with the Wand Wielder arcana, you can take this deed without needing any grit, and thus use your gun as part of Spell Combat.
|
|
How's this.
I think it seems very good now.
But to be honest, if the beta doesn't seem to allow for what I'm waiting of the class, I'll probably just give up on the topic. We already wrote several tons of text and spent at least a dozen hours in just this subject, I don't think we'll change anything at all after the 1.5 is out if there are really a lot of differences between the official and unofficial versions.
We should even see ourselves happy to have been just read, since we at least had the opportunity to help improve the class. There are waaay enough ideas concentrated in the coming 1.5 to cover any issue or gap the designers could have to confront or fill, and they have even be balanced to help working with them - if they are unused and the gunslinger ends up not interesting and various enough to my taste, I'm afraid I'll not continue to put time into what would "just" be a homebrew that still needs a lot of work to be perfectly balanced...
Still an interesting experience to confront ideas with fellows players, I'm glad if I helped at least a bit. :)
Good idea! I think I'll join you. I'll post 1.5 when I can and then sit and wait for the Beta version.
|
|
Ahahah no, I didn't say I would just sit for the beta - even if it's what I'll do from now on.
I said that if the beta is really too much different that what we came up with (no innovation or mechanism looking like it, for example), there is no chance I'll continue to work on future variants. A simple link to 1.5 will be enough, there are a ton of good and awesome things to take on it, like Utility Gun, Gun Kata progressive and efficient mechanisms, and different ways to reload easily without following the same boring scheme in each gunsliger build just to not suck at his own job. I'll surely not annoy everyone by saying they should absolutely "do this and this" when there is apparently no chance that this will come. If it seems clear that there will lack the little something that I, as a player, wanted when reading the class abilities, I'll just let everyone work at their best at Paizo and look if the final version is worth it. If not, well, I'll look for another character concept, even if it is a disappointing waste of potential for me...
Do me a favor and don't post 1.5 yet. There's some things I've noticed that need to be addressed first. I'm almost done here at work. As soon as I get home, I'll do a writeup...
Do me a favor and don't post 1.5 yet. There's some things I've noticed that need to be addressed first. I'm almost done here at work. As soon as I get home, I'll do a writeup...
You bet!!! Been waiting for your comments before I posted it.
Bluhhhhhh. I don't wannaaaaaaa. There's too muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch.
</whining>
Alright, here we go. If I screw something up, or mention something that's already been fixed, lemme know...
On reloading:
Though I like the new system, with crafting the cartridges, only a certain number per day, it brings up the issue of the Revolver inno requiring Cartridge. Simple enough to fix, I guess, just remove that prerequisite.
Also, I think that anything that's crafted (alchemical shot, cartidges, etc.) should be based on the 'slinger's Wis or Cha mod, whichever they're using for Grit.
On Resolute Shot:
Hack and Shoot:
Magic Multibarrel Guns:
Keep Them Dancing:
Wandgun...thing...
|
|
Gosh, I disagree vividly with you, but like, over nine-thousand.
I'm uncomfortable with the combination of Rapid Shot, Breech Loader, and Cartridge. It allows reloading as a free action, which I don't like. Mostly, because it allows one to reload and fire with a single-shot gun FASTER THAN WITH A REVOLVER.
The revolver doesn't need a lot of deeds, feats and innovations to work, it just needs one mid-level innovation if I remember, and he's good. Maybe the revolver shouldn't apply to muskets, when I think about it. Though, I agree that right now it's easy to abuse the rules to lose almost all weaknesses the gunslinger could have, including range and reloading. I wouldn't want to find myself with one empty gun at the beginning of each round ; and I don't mind seeing a two-pistol gunslinger reloading her weapons like lightning after taking the right combination of capacities, when the musketeer only needs one deed and one really good innovation to shoot all her attacks in one bullet each round...
Also, I think that anything that's crafted (alchemical shot, cartidges, etc.) should be based on the 'slinger's Wis or Cha mod, whichever they're using for Grit.
I tried to go this way, but this is always too good at lower level or too bad at higher level. The craft check and limits per day were better tools when it was turning around the idea of crafting alchemical/mechanical upgrades. The checks and results improve slowly and reward gunslinger with intelligence which is supposed to be almost a dump stat - the ones most likely to craft special bullets fluff-wise.
With Rapid Shot, you gain another attack when making a full attack. So When making a resolute shot, you would count this feat in, but not multi-shot. Keep it simple. Full attack resolved with a single strike. Elemental and precision damage are only applied once, but DR is only counted once, as well. This should also be a full-round action (this was brought up before) so Double Shot can't be used with it.
Rapid Shot wouldn't even add any attacks if there wasn't Resolute Shot or More Dakka, or if the Gunslinger wasn't able to reload as a free action. So, I didn't see why she would add an attack just like this to her Resolute Shot. Reloading faster seems more logical, follows the logic behind the feat itself as shows the link I found, and still inflicts -2 to all attacks in the round. If the effects stacking isn't good, then I suggest to remove another way to improve the reloading speed, or to just dump the Rapid Shot effect on Resolute Shot. If you dump this or even if you don't, I strongly believe Double Shot should stay, for the simple reason that nobody would take it in the other case. When the musketeer gets Resolute Shot, he's not gonna waste his turns doing anything else most of the time, and if he can Double Shot during a Resolute Shot, he still has to reload two barrels at the end of the round.
I understand why the first attack has to be a melee attack, but I think it'd work better with not provoking when dual-wielding a pistol and melee weapon. I can see people taking too much advantage of a pistol whip followed by a (mostly) full attack of gunfire while adjacent to an opponent. Just my 2c.
Who's gonna attack in melee if he just needs a gun and pistol whip in his hands to shoot when someone gets close ? If the gunslinger fails her pistol whip, she falls prone or her weapon falls, and her non-astronomical AC just got a -4 malus, perfect to get owned by AoO even if she can still use her guns on the ground. If she trips her target, it's -4 to hit it because she's using ranged attacks against a prone target. So either way, that she trips or get tripped, she gets a huge malus. This deed allows to do cool and useful things but has a lot of risk behind it, just like the gunslinger class in itself. This point was already made several times, but I don't think giving the equivalent of a high level feat (Point-Blank Mastery) is a good idea at all.
So long as it's specifically stated that one can NOT make an extra attack with the other barrel like a double weapon, this is fine.
I think that we should stay on the whole "Only the original barrel gets enhanced" idea. Because if we don't, all people will wonder why their new barrel can't be enhanced differently than their gun already was, and if you can, how do you count or modify this, etc.
Why only against an ADJACENT target? Why not against the guy who's fighting the crit-happy rogue 10' away? Most of the time, this isn't going to get used, because there aren't going to be enough people around to take advantage of it, except the gunslinger, who can't make AoO's with guns. Maybe within 1 range increment instead?
I agree for a 10' limit, but higher would give the opposite effect, once the BBEG will be in melee with Brutor and Dissecator who both did their Power Attack, the gunslinger will yawn and from the other side of the room, allow her fellows butchers to rape the hell out of BBEG in a second. And yes, the gunslinger CAN AoO with guns => Pistol Whip.
Make them dance, and hit their pretty little elfic face with your gun in one cool motion, make them fall prone, smile with a cool face and put your hat back to sit back on your seat and sip on your cöhla-beer.
Disagreement and discussion are where the best ideas are made. ;)
The revolver doesn't need a lot of deeds, feats and innovations to work, it just needs one mid-level innovation if I remember, and he's good. Maybe the revolver shouldn't apply to muskets, when I think about it. Though, I agree that right now it's easy to abuse the rules to lose almost all weaknesses the gunslinger could have, including range and reloading. I wouldn't want to find myself with one empty gun at the beginning of each round ; and I don't mind seeing a two-pistol gunslinger reloading her weapons like lightning after taking the right combination of capacities, when the musketeer only needs one deed and one really good innovation to shoot all her attacks in one bullet each round...
I'm alright with swift-action reloading, and free with a deed that costs grit. A series of a feat, a deed, and an innovation that allows full attacks every round with no cost whatsoever is overpowered. The revolver allows a higher capacity that needs to be exhausted before reloading becomes necessary. That's how full attacks should be done. That or resolute shot, though I'll get to that later.
I tried to go this way, but this is always too good at lower level or too bad at higher level. The craft check and limits per day were better tools when it was turning around the idea of crafting alchemical/mechanical upgrades. The checks and results improve slowly and reward gunslinger with intelligence which is supposed to be almost a dump stat - the ones most likely to craft special bullets fluff-wise.
Ah, of course. You're right. See? I knew I'd miss something. Still, though, forcing a class to pump every stat is bad design. As much as I abhor "dump stats," they exist. Clerics don't generally need Dex or Int, Bards can do fine without Str or Wis. The gunslinger should be able to dump a stat.
Rapid Shot wouldn't even add any attacks if there wasn't Resolute Shot or More Dakka, or if the Gunslinger wasn't able to reload as a free action. So, I didn't see why she would add an attack just like this to her Resolute Shot. Reloading faster seems more logical, follows the logic behind the feat itself as shows the link I found, and still inflicts -2 to all attacks in the round. If the effects stacking isn't good, then I suggest to remove another way to improve the reloading speed, or to just dump the Rapid Shot effect on Resolute Shot. If you dump this or even if you don't, I strongly believe Double Shot should stay, for the simple reason that nobody would take it in the other case. When the musketeer gets Resolute Shot, he's not gonna waste his turns doing anything else most of the time, and if he can Double Shot during a Resolute Shot, he still has to reload two barrels at the end of the round.
Like I said above, Rapid Shot affects Full Attacks. Resolute shot compresses a full attack into a single bullet. Hence, when adding up all of the attacks, why WOULDN'T rapid shot add another chance to deal some more damage? Multishot states that it fires two projectiles at the same time, so only being able to use it with the extra barrel makes sense, while using it with resolute shot doesn't.
Adding in new mechanics to existing feats is clunky and complicated. Keep it simple. Let it work exactly like it works for any other ranged weapon. With revolver, extra barrel, or resolute shot, rapid shot gives 1 more attack when making a full attack. The logic of the feat follows being able to attack more often, not reload quicker.
I strongly disagree with being able to resolute shot and double shot in the same action. Essentially, that allows a gunslinger to make MORE attacks than just a full attack action, something unattainable with any other class, feat, etc. It's overpowered. And as I said above, being able to get swift action reloading with that combination is perfectly fine. Swift action to reload, and another resolute shot next round.
Who's gonna attack in melee if he just needs a gun and pistol whip in his hands to shoot when someone gets close ? If the gunslinger fails her pistol whip, she falls prone or her weapon falls, and her non-astronomical AC just got a -4 malus, perfect to get owned by AoO even if she can still use her guns on the ground. If she trips her target, it's -4 to hit it because she's using ranged attacks against a prone target. So either way, that she trips or get tripped, she gets a huge malus. This deed allows to do cool and useful things but has a lot of risk behind it, just like the gunslinger class in itself. This point was already made several times, but I don't think giving the equivalent of a high level feat (Point-Blank Mastery) is a good idea at all.
The whole point of this in the first place was to make TWF with a melee weapon and a firearm (like a buccaneer type) viable. As it is now, it can abused and made to be overpowered. As I'm suggesting, you only get the benefit IF you're wielding another weapon that DOESN'T target touch AC, instead of one melee attack and a barrage of touch attacks. How it is now is actually MORE powerful than what I've suggested.
I think that we should stay on the whole "Only the original barrel gets enhanced" idea. Because if we don't, all people will wonder why their new barrel can't be enhanced differently than their gun already was, and if you can, how do you count or modify this, etc.
I'm a little confused on what you're saying, here. I agree that the barrels should be enchanted separately, like double weapons, so long as a gun with an extra barrel can't be used to TWF like a double weapon.
I agree for a 10' limit, but higher would give the opposite effect, once the BBEG will be in melee with Brutor and Dissecator who both did their Power Attack, the gunslinger will yawn and from the other side of the room, allow her fellows butchers to rape the hell out of BBEG in a second. And yes, the gunslinger CAN AoO with guns => Pistol Whip.
Make them dance, and hit their pretty little elfic face with your gun in one cool motion, make them fall prone, smile with a cool face and put your hat back to sit back on your seat and sip on your cöhla-beer.
I see where you're going with this. A 10' or 15' limit works here.
|
|
I'm alright with swift-action reloading, and free with a deed that costs grit. A series of a feat, a deed, and an innovation that allows full attacks every round with no cost whatsoever is overpowered.
I agree : swift action at best for muskets, and free action at best for a pistol with revolver and Lock and Load, that will still need a standard action to reload when empty, where the gunslinger can spend 1 grit through Lock and Load to reload both at the same time.
Ah, of course. You're right. See? I knew I'd miss something. Still, though, forcing a class to pump every stat is bad design. As much as I abhor "dump stats," they exist. Clerics don't generally need Dex or Int, Bards can do fine without Str or Wis. The gunslinger should be able to dump a stat.
Nobody is forcing the gunslinger into taking Intelligence. It's like the rogue who can go charisma, dexterity, or full combat and always have a different way of playing without sucking too much. You take Cartridge as a prerequisite ? you already got your level as a bonus to any craft check necessary to craft cartridges, so it's only a 2 points difference in your crafting check between someone with 8 and someone with 12 in intelligence. The only place where intelligence makes a real difference is Alchemical Gun, who is both a permanent innovation and a capacity that is far from a must-have to not suck. It is just an alternative to play differently ; you will not ask a rogue with no charisma to take a talent allowing for easier bluff checks, and so no dumb gunslinger will get an alchemical gun. Its just an alternative way of playing, not a must-have that makes you suck if you don't pump every stat.
Like I said above, Rapid Shot affects Full Attacks. Resolute shot compresses a full attack into a single bullet. Hence, when adding up all of the attacks, why WOULDN'T rapid shot add another chance to deal some more damage? Multishot states that it fires two projectiles at the same time, so only being able to use it with the extra barrel makes sense, while using it with resolute shot doesn't.
With the same logic, how do you shoot a third bullet per round if you can only reload ONCE your gun even when going the faster way ? I don't buy it, nobody ever allowed this feat to work with a weapon which reloading wasn't a free action, or it was a homebrew rule. I can see this working with revolver guns or free action reloading deeds, not with muskets.
I strongly disagree with being able to resolute shot and double shot in the same action. Essentially, that allows a gunslinger to make MORE attacks than just a full attack action, something unattainable with any other class, feat, etc. It's overpowered. And as I said above, being able to get swift action reloading with that combination is perfectly fine. Swift action to reload, and another resolute shot next round.
And this time, you are interpretating the feat just wrong. It's written that when doing a full-round attack (which until further revision, the Resolute Shot still is), you can fire two shots at once. I don't see why you couldn't fire your resolute shot + the shot in the barrel just further, especially when doing so just adds one attack into your round like Manyshot would do, and that you have to pay no less than one innovation + one deed to get it working... all the while not being able to reload the second barrel in the same round than your first barrel ! It works exactly like it would for an archer on the first round, is limited by reloading time, and doesn't even benefit from Resolute Shot DR perforation ! This is a capacity useful to deal a bit more hard damage against a single target in ONE round, except if the gunslinger spends a move action to reload it again and thus, only makes one attack instead of several on a following round. How the heck could it be more overpowered that one more shot EACH round with only a -2 for a weapon that already hits touch AC ?
The whole point of this in the first place was to make TWF with a melee weapon and a firearm (like a buccaneer type) viable.
You can propose that it should work this way too, I find this interesting. Making it work ONLY this way would be a big "screw you" to double wielding pistoleers, which were the first to benefit from this as one of the two main builds beginning from level 1. Also, did I spoke about the fact that you have to double-wield one-hand weapons, and in melee, when you are not even supposed to get into melee if you want to live old enough to tell the tale as a gunslinger ? You "lose" your best attack bonus into a melee strike, so if you want to spend grit to try a trip (and get a malus if you win or even if you don't...), you'd better be able to do so or you can just forget about gun-kata. That you are in melee or not when doing ranged touch-attacks will not change anything to your bonus (oh, yep, -4 again, I forgot...), you're still shooting where you shouldn't. The "barrage" of touch attacks can also be made 30' feet from here, and you'll risk nothing this way. I don't see the point of nerfing this ability that involves enough risk to be a bit worth it when you have luck with your dices.
Uh...OK, lots of text. So, what is being proposed/fixed/changed?
One thing I do have an opinion on is Resolute Shot. Even though I do like the idea of loading faster with Rapid Shot (Maxx), but I think we need to go with how the feat reads in the Core Rulebook, and thus agree with Odentin.
Rapid Shot
You can make an additional ranged attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged
weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of
your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using
Rapid Shot.
Event though it's meant to allow an actual second shot, we are Resolute Shooting. This feat works as follows with the Resolute Shot.
Thus, when using your full-attack action to Resolute Shot (eg. +20/+15/+10/+5 for 20th lvl gunslinger), you roll once to determine whether the Resoulte Shot actually hits (+20). Any misfire, miss, or hit is determined in this roll. If a hit occurs, and no misfire, you roll the remaining attacks (+15/+10/+5). Any hits, damage is rolled normally. Misfires are ignored because the one shot has already been fired. Any misses, you simply don't roll damage.
If you have Rapid Shot you would gain an extra attack at highest bonus (eg. +20/+20/+15/+10/+5) However, doing so gives a -2 penalty to all rolls (eg. +18/+18/+13/+8/+3). Again, roll once to determine whether the Resoulte Shot actually hits (first +18). Any misfire, miss, or hit is determined in this roll. If a hit occurs, and no misfire, you roll the remaining attacks (+18/+13/+8/+3). Any hits, damage is rolled normally. Misfires are ignored because the one shot has already been fired. Any misses, you simply don't roll damage.
All damage is combined in one grand total at the end of the shot. DR, energy damage, etc. is added/subtracted once to the total.
Manyshot and Double Shot do not work, unless there is an actual second barrel.
Also, Rapid Shot could also be used this way with a double barrel gun, but you couldn't use it for a Resolute Shot, and get a n actual second shot off from the second barrel. One would need to assign where the "extra shot" goes, either to provide extra damage to the Resoulute Shot, OR gain a second bullet during the round.
Clear, concise, fair, within the RAR for the feats. Afterall, Maxx, I believe the link you showed was for a 3.5 vesrion, wasn't it? I know it's supposed to be compatible, but lets stick with RAR in Pathfinder for this. What do you guys think?
I think this is the most simple and elegant way to go.
For Now, I'm going to bed-it's 11:38 pm here in Alberta, Canada. Maxx, it's probably noon where you are in France, but go to sleep anyways!! And Odetin...I don't know where you live? So, you go to sleep too. We''ll pick this up tomorrow. I'm sure Maxx will be the first to respond.
GOODNIGHT!! 8)
|
|
No, I'll not be the first to respond.
...
F@*#.
Actually, it was 7h30 here when you wrote, even I was already sleeping when it's so late !
Reactions :
Clear, concise, fair, within the RAR for the feats. Afterall, Maxx, I believe the link you showed was for a 3.5 vesrion, wasn't it? I know it's supposed to be compatible, but lets stick with RAR in Pathfinder for this. What do you guys think?But if I follow the APG logic (Crossbow Mastery needs Rapid Shot, which it shouldn't be able to use if we keep the logic that if you can reload only once per round, you can not shot three times), it seems that they simplified the system and just allowed Rapid Shot to work with heavy crossbows/guns too. Essentially, this feat gives an additional reloading action plus an attack action.
So I guess you could simply add an attack to resolute shot, but you should still be able to shoot once per round with a loaded second barrel if you took an innovation and a deed just to do so (Double Shot gives Manyshot, but the feat should only work with Resolute Shot if you got at least two barrels AND this deed), still with the -2 to attack. With all these attacks per round, you'd better see if some mid-to-high level upgrades to firearms damage shouldn't be dumped or nerfed, at the risk of making it OP.
Also, you can add this sentence into the Hack and Shoot description : "The gunslinger can also use this deed to shoot with her guns without provoking attacks of opportunity if she got a firearm in one hand, and a melee weapon that isn't a firearm in the other."
I added the sentence to Hack and Shoot.
Is this what we want then for Resolute Shot?
...If the gunslinger has Rapid Shot, she can make one additional attack roll at her highest bonus. If it hits, damage is rolled normally and added to her Resolute Shot’s total damage. No additional shot is discharged during this extra attack and only determines whether an extra damage die is added tothe gunslinger’s Resolute Shot’s total damage. However, by using Rapid Shot in this manner, the gunslinger receives a -2 penalty to all attack rolls she makes during this round. If the gunslinger also has Crossbow Master, she can reload her firearm before or at the end of the Resolute Shot one action faster–a full-round action becomes standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, a move action becomes a swift action, a swift action becomes a free action.
If the gunslinger has the Double Shot deed and Manyshot, she can make an additional attack at her highest attack bonus during the Resolute Shot against the same target, though this attack is resolved as a separate attack, and can suffer again from any damage reduction. Critical hits in a Resolute Shot are calculated as normal, separately from each other...
|
|
Some corrections made :
"If the gunslinger has Rapid Shot, she can make one additional attack roll at her highest bonus during the Resolute Shot. No additional shot is discharged during this extra attack. However, by using Rapid Shot in this manner, the gunslinger receives a -2 penalty to all attack rolls she makes during this round.
If the gunslinger has the Double Shot deed and the More Dakka innovation with at least one more barrel loaded and ready to shoot, one time per round, her first attack fires two shots : the Resolute Shot resolved as normal, and an unique separate bullet. If the Resolute Shot hits, both shots hit. This works as the Manyshot feat. This additional shot is a separate bullet, and thus can suffer again from any damage reduction. The gunslinger must have at least one secondary barrel loaded with a bullet and powder when firing a Resolute Shot to use Double Shot this way.
Critical hits in a Resolute Shot are calculated as normal, separately from each other."
Not sure about the reloading thing with Crossbow Mastery, the class already got a lot of ways to improve reloading and not spending too much bullets.
After re-reading Multishot, I can agree that using double shot in teh same turn as a resolute shot is fine. No reloading, though.
Hack and Shoot:
Maxx, we're going to have to agree to disagree, here. As it stands it seems overpowered to allow it to be used with two pistols. You keep bringing up the penalties that apply IF you decide to try to trip the opponent with the first pistol whip, but let me ask you this: Why would you? In true powergamer style, it would be more efficient to make a single pistol whip WITHOUT the trip attempt, then blow the rest of the full attack on the opponent, who can't make AoO's against you now.
And yes, a 'slinger can make full attacks against an opponent within 1 range increment no problem as it stands now, but they still provoke AoO's unless they're careful about their positioning. The main problem with the buccaneer archetype/style character is that they would provoke while in melee, making the gun useless unless they stepped back to fire, in which case they're melee weapon is useless.
Instead of being able to wade into the close melee and let rip constant volleys of bullets without provoking AoO's, I suggest, again, that Hack and Shoot be changed to deny AoO's so long as the 'slinger is making a full attack with a melee weapon and firearm. Even a pistol-ship would work as the melee weapon, so long as all of the attacks with that hand were pistol-whips and not gunshots.
Reloading:
I still have my concerns about being able to make full attacks with SINGLE SHOT FIREARMS. As it stands atm, I do like that you can only make a certain amount of cartridges, and thus can only make a limited amount of free action reloads per day.
However, I would like to impose a limit on how many can be made daily. Something progressive, so that it isn't too good at low levels or too bad at high levels. Something like up to the gunslinger's class level per day. If she doesn't use them, she can still use them the next day, etc. As it's written now, what's stopping the 'slinger from making the craft check over and over and allowing every one of her shots to be free reloads? Nothing. This is broken.
A swift action to reload a pistol, at the fastest, is PERFECT. If a 'slinger wants to make full attacks with their pistols, let them make their pistols into revolvers or add a bunch of barrels to them. I might expand on the revolver inno, slightly, though. Move action to reload a chamber (doesn't stack with breech loader), rapid reload allows half of the chambers (3 for pistol, 4 for musket), and when using cartridges, all of the chambers of a single gun can be reloaded as a move action. That way, a pistoleer is only down for a single round out of every 3 to reload.
Elghinnl, I'd love to hear your thoughts on these arguments.
Also, about chat, I had the thought a while back that I'd like to get you guys into a voice-chat dev session, just jam out, ya know?
And for reference, I'm on the west coast USA.
|
|
Instead of being able to wade into the close melee and let rip constant volleys of bullets without provoking AoO's, I suggest, again, that Hack and Shoot be changed to deny AoO's so long as the 'slinger is making a full attack with a melee weapon and firearm. Even a pistol-ship would work as the melee weapon, so long as all of the attacks with that hand were pistol-whips and not gunshots.
Actually... I like it. What you are suggesting is following the logic that I had when writing this deed. The first version was "every odd attack with both hand", as to allow at best two shots when doing four attacks (2 main-hand, 2 off-hand), and these shots where always with the worst BAB value. Then, to make it simple, I suggested that the gunslinger had to use her first attack of each hand as a melee attack, and so "lose" again their best bonus to hit. An additional limitation I thought about was "the gunslinger doesn't provoke opportunities when firing in melee, but only from the targets that got hit by at least one melee attack during this round" = the melee attack becomes mechanically what it is fluff-wise, a distracting strike to shoot remaining bullets without provoking AoO. But your version is good too, I just hope the gunslinger will be able to go through the TWF chain and get melee abilities efficient enough to make a difference if she has to trade 1d8x4 at range, to 1d8x2 in melee with the same damage bonuses... yes, she gets her strength bonus to melee damage, but no gunslinger will have more than +2 in here, except potential heavy weapons wielders. Don't think it's worth without something to put a little more punch in it, like an innovation putting the melee damage of a bayonet pistol to 1d10x3 like a dwarven waraxe, at the price of making it a one-handed weapon even for the purpose of Guns Akimbo (it's 2 deeds and one innovation to get this to work a bit, so I don't think it's overpowered...). If the gunslinger got one heavy bayonet pistol and one normal bayonet, it's still a one-handed weapon and a light weapon for the purpose of guns akimbo and TWF, so it doesn't penalizes the one who takes it for one pistol, and gets something else in the other.
Or, instead of damage, something that allows more battlefield control or combat manœuvres.
A swift action to reload a pistol, at the fastest, is PERFECT. If a 'slinger wants to make full attacks with their pistols, let them make their pistols into revolvers or add a bunch of barrels to them.
I think the different ways to reload fast enough without using a revolver were an answer to people who didn't want the designers to go this way. Though, it seems we'll get a load of new weapons coming in the beta, and I don't think anymore revolvers are too weird to admit for everyone interested in the gunslinger. The reloading times for revolvers seems good too, even if I have to admit that I'm not a fan of cartridges. These are hard-to-keep-track-off tools, and even with the rules to make them not a durable (and thus, a more valuable) ressource, I've got some difficulties to see them work. Seeing how much you can craft per day, it's almost like allowing a faster reloading at each round, except for the hard days - but after all, hard days are hard for everyone else, so maybe it's only because I didn't saw any opinion from people playtesting this.
Maybe there should be a deed or an innovation that allows to reload several barrels at the same time with the same action (Lock and Load does this for 1 grit and two barrels max, but something for when there are way more barrels, like a greater Lock and Load) ? So people who don't want to get a revolver could still reload their multiple canons fast enough.Also, about chat, I had the thought a while back that I'd like to get you guys into a voice-chat dev session, just jam out, ya know?
Ahahah, I don't think I'm good enough in english to follow this kind of discussion in live ! :) I'm checking the subject for updates whenever it is possible during the day, and always answer asap. It's even possible we're discussing this for nothing, seeing that :
- we lack credibility to the point people who see this topic think we're just homebrewing an alpha, and so losing our time and theirs ;- the 1.4 was out almost at the same time the designers pretty much announced they were almost done with the beta ;
- if the 1.4 was too late, the huge improvement that is 1.5 will be late too ;
- there was no confirmation that any official has ever read this topic and found some ideas interesting and worth keeping.
I sure hope I'm wrong, but well, at least we're sure the 1.5 will be read before the final version is out in UC. Trying to concentrate everyone's suggestions and give good, different and balanced ideas to anyone, official or unofficial, was the objective - and I guess it will be accomplished. We're close enough of this goal to say this post will probably not last a half-hundred more messages.
OK, so, what is going on with Hack and Shoot? Seems like Maxx agrees with Odentin’s comment. However, if someone could dumb it down, or write me up a blurp to update it, that would be great. One or the other has been doing that repeatedly over the last hundred posts we’ve thrown back and forth.
Also, I’ve been looking at the Loading issue and collected all the feats/deeds/innovations into one spot to take a look at them.
Loading a Firearm: It’s a standard action to load a one-handed firearm and a full-round action to load a two-handed firearm. Loading a cannon requires three full-round actions. Loading a firearm provokes attacks of opportunity. The Rapid Reload feat reduces the time required to load one-handed and two-handed firearms, but not cannons. Loading a one-handed or two-handed firearm typically requires one bullet and 1 dose of black powder. Siege firearms typically require a ball and multiple doses of black powder. Firearm ammunition cannot be treated with poison.
Result
One-handed firearm: standard action
Two-handed firearm: full-round action
FEATS
Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, heavy) or a single type of one-handed or two-handed firearm that you are proficient with. You can reload such a weapon quickly.
Prerequisite: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm).
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for a heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (for a two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity. If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.
Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, a standard action to reload a one-handed firearm, or a full-round action to load a heavy crossbow or a two-handed firearm.
Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow or a new type of firearm.
Result
One-handed firearm: standard action to a move action
Two-handed firearm: full-round action to a standard action
Spend grit to reload a single firearm with a free action.
Prerequisites: Grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger feat, Rapid Reload
Benefit: Spend 1 grit point to reload a single barrel of a firearm as a free action. You can only perform this deed if you are wearing light or no armor.
Result
One-handed firearm: move action to a free action/1grit
Two-handed firearm: standard action to a free action/1 grit
You can load crossbows with blinding speed and even fire them in melee with little fear of reprisal.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot.
Benefit: The time required for you to reload any type of crossbow is reduced to a free action, regardless of the type of crossbow used, while the time required to reload a one-handed firearm is reduce to a swift action, and a two-handed firearm is reduced to a move action. You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Reloading a crossbow or firearm for the type of crossbow or firearm you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: Starting at 6th level, a ranger with the archery combat style may select Crossbow Mastery as a combat style feat.
Result
One-handed firearm: move action to a swift action
Two-handed firearm: standard action to a move action
DEEDS
Allows reload without a free hand, and reload 1 extra shot for grit.
FEATURE
Made a small change to this.
Cartridges: The gunslinger has developed a process by which she can more quickly and efficiently reload her firearm. The gunslinger can create special paper cartridges, pre-packed with black powder and shot. When used, these cartridges improve the gunslinger’s reloading time by one action–a full-round action to a standard action, a standard action to a move action, a move action to a swift action. Cartridges cannot improve the reload time of a gunslinger’s firearm beyond a swift action; only deeds and feats can improve it further.
Each day, the gunslinger can create cartridges by making a unique Craft (Firearm) check. Crafting one cartridge requires five minutes of work at negligible cost from one shot, and a unique dose of powder that can't be recovered. However, the shot does keep all its magical and material attributes. These cartridges are fragile and are subject to moisture, friction, the rigors of travel, and any elemental or stocking hazard. Thus, for each additional day cartridges remain unused beyond their day of creation, they suffer a cumulative -2 penalty to their attack rolls and a +1 increase to their misfire value. If the gunslinger rolls a natural 20 on her Craft check, she crafts masterwork cartridges instead which are unsusceptible to the rigors of travel and time and gain the normal masterwork weapon bonus.
If the gunslinger has the Alchemical Gun innovation, she can create alchemical cartridges with ten minutes of work per cartridge, at negligible cost from one shot, and a unique dose of powder that can't be recovered. These alchemical cartridges are counted as normal cartridges when determining their reload time, and alchemical shot in the gunslinger's limit per day. However, due to their alchemical instability, their alchemical effect vanishes after 24 hours and they revert back to normal cartridges, regardless of whether the Craft check results in masterwork cartridges, or the type of cartridge used (paper or metal).
At 12th level, the gunslinger can craft cartridges with reusable brass or steel sleeves. These metal cartridges are far more durable than paper cartridges and are unsusceptible to the rigors of travel and time. If her Craft check results in masterwork metal cartridges, they only gain the normal masterwork weapon bonus. Cartridges come in the single shot (muskets and pistol) or scatter shot (blunderbuss) variety. A gunslinger can craft a number of cartridges per day equal to her level + her Dexterity modifier.
I added in the restriction to reload time improvement for the “Advanced Ballistics: Cartridges” feature, and to “Innovations”. I agree with that. I also changed how we determine the number of cartridges that can be made per day. I think the paper cartridges restrict themselves nicely due to their inferior design, same with the instability of alchemical cartridges, and yet allow the good metal cartridges to remain as superior creations once the gunslinger reaches 12th level. Also, even though we are using Crossbow related feats, firearms aren’t crossbows, and so should have some caveats to them in things like they did in the Rapid Reload feat, and I did in the Crossbow Mastery feat. It think this whole thing allows nongunslingers to use firearms in a very viable way, but still allows the gunslinger to be the true expert. Speaking of that, maybe a new feat should be made separately from Crossbow Mastery for firearms? How about this?
You can load firearms with blinding speed and even fire them in melee with little fear of reprisal.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, gunslinger level 6th.
Benefit: The time required to reload a firearm (one-handed or two-handed) is reduce to a swift action. You can also discharge a single shot as a standard action in the same round. Reloading a firearm for the type of firearm you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: Starting at 6th level, a ranger with the firearm combat style may select Firearm Expert as a combat style feat.
INNOVATIONS
I added the following limitation to the whole innovation feature description.
“Innovations cannot improve the reload time of a gunslinger’s firearm beyond a swift action; only deeds and feats can improve it further.”
Conversely, the gunslinger has created a reloading mechanism whereby a magazine feeds cartridges directly into the firing chamber of the firearm. The style of magazine can vary from a gravity fed box affixed directly over the breech, to a spring fed tube magazine positioned below the barrel. Regardless of style, the gunslinger’s reload time now refers to the reloading of her magazine and improves her reload time by one action (see Clip above). The gunslinger can load up to 6 cartridges into her magazine during her reload action. However, if the gunslinger chooses to load an additional 6 cartridges, as in the case of a musket, her reload time is worsened by one action–swift action to a move action, move action to a standard action, standard action to a full-round action. The design of this mechanism restores the integrity of a firearm’s breech, thus decreasing its misfire value by 1. A magazine holds up to 8 cartridges for a pistol, and 12 cartridges for a musket, allowing the gunslinger to make multiple full-attack actions before having to reload. The Magazine innovation does not stack with the Revolver innovation. The gunslinger must have the Breech Loader innovation and be at lest 15th level to select the innovation.
I think these changes allow for good selection and variation with innovations, without forcing reload to be a swift action, keeping it in the realm of reload and still get a single shot off in the same round.
I changed the Clip and Magazine Innovation to fit in better with the whole max “swift action” idea, and still allow even faster loading through either the deeds or feats. Although, I think only Lightning Reload Deed can allow a free action to reload, at the cost of Grit. I think that’s fair. This restricts the gunslinger to the only class who can reload that fast. “Neener-neener to the Fighter!! 8D
NEGATING AoO
This is for Odentin, since he mentioned something about negating AoO when shooting or reloading.
Deft Shootist Deed (Grit)
You can avoid attacks while shooting and reloading firearms.
Prerequisites: Grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger feat, Dodge
Benefit: You gain the deft shootist deed.
Deft Shootist (Ex): Spend 1 grit point as a free action. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when shooting or reloading your firearm until the end of your turn.
That’s all I’ve got for now.
Hack and Shoot: A gunslinger with this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity from using a firearm in melee combat, as long as she is making a full attack with a firearm and melee weapon. That's worded...poorly, but you get the idea. I just woke up...
Hack and Shoot (Ex): Whenever the gunslinger is threatened, she does not provoke attacks of opportunity when using a firearm in melee combat, as long as she is making a full-round attack with a firearm and melee weapon. The gunslinger must have the Pistol Whip deed and be at least 4th level to select this deed.
So, that's the new version of the deed?
|
|
Better :
Hack and Shoot (Ex): The gunslinger doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity by shooting her firearm off-hand during a full-attack action. The gunslinger must wield a melee weapon in her primary hand and a firearm in her off-hand to use this deed. A pistol can be used as a melee weapon, so long as all the attacks with that hand during the full-attack action were pistol-whips. The gunslinger must have the Pistol Whip deed and be at least 4th level to select this deed.
Thanks! Any comments on my post above?
|
|
*Connects itself and launches Vangelis' Blade Runner soundtrack on VLC*
Thanks! Any comments on my post above?
Actually ? The whole post seems perfect to me. Swift action at best, free action only with special innovations that still need time and ressources to reload once empty, or don't need time, but pump Grit. Seems very good and truely balanced on paper.
Speaking of that, maybe a new feat should be made separately from Crossbow Mastery for firearms? How about this?
Simple way : make Resolute Shot a feat. This deed in itself resolves any problem someone would have with muskets. Reloading pistols without a free hand only needs one gunslinger level to take the deeds. A lot of unarmed fighters take just one level of monk, just as to get these kind of must-have capacities ; so I don't see why a desperado-style double pistol wielder fighter wouldn't take at least one level of gunslinger before. Or even simpler again : make the "reloading a crossbow or firearm doesn't need a free hand anymore" capacity from Lock and Load a feat in itself, with a proficiency in the concerned weapons and a +1 BAB as prerequisites. This way, any class can double wield crossbows or pistols without worrying about anything else than reloading speed.
Alright Maxx, here's what you suggested. Now, we need to decide whether we want these to remain Deeds, or become Feats. Or perhaps both? (probably not) I decided to make Lock and Load a firearm only feat, still allowing for grit, and a fighter to gain it if he wants to.
Resolute Shot Deed (Grit)
Spend grit to make a single devastating shot as a full-round action.
Prerequisites: Grit class feature, musket or long-barrel firearm, gunslinger level 6th.
Benefit: Spend 1 grit point and forfeit your full-attack to make a single focused shot at your highest attack bonus. If you miss, you deal no damage. If a misfire occurs, you must remove your firearm’s broken condition before any further attacks can be made, though no additional attacks can be made until your next turn. On a direct hit, however, you deal normal damage. You then roll the remaining attacks of your full-attack action, though no additional shots are taken. For each remaining attack that hits, you roll damage as normal and add this to your total damage. If any of the remaining attack rolls result in a “miss” or a “misfire”, they deal no damage, and no misfire occurs. Any damage reduction your target has is applied only once to your total damage. Critical hits confirmed on your attack rolls are calculated as normal, separately from each other. A Resolute Shot can only be made with a musket or some other long-barreled firearm.
Special: If you have Rapid Shot, you can make one additional attack roll at your highest bonus, though no additional shot is taken. If it hits, you roll damage normally and add it to your total damage. However, when using Rapid Shot in this manner, you receive a -2 penalty to all attack rolls you make during this round. If you have the Double Shot deed, the More Dakka innovation, and an additional barrel loaded and ready to shoot, you can discharge a second shot at the same time as you make your Resolute Shot. If your Resolute Shot hits, both shots hit. This second shot is a separate attack, and is subject to its own damage reduction. This functions as Manyshot. If you use the Alchemical Gun innovation during your Resolute Shot, energy damage dealt by the shot is added to your first attack roll only.
Lock and Load Deed (Grit)
You can load a firearm even when both hands are full.
Prerequisites: Grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger feat, Weapon Proficiency (firearm type chosen), base attack bonus +2.
Benefit: You can reload your firearm without having your other hand free. If your firearm has more than one barrel, you can spend 1 grit point and reload an additional shot in the same action.
EDIT: Personally, I think feats are the way to go. It gives the gunslinger more feats to pick from and spead out the gunslinger goodness among the Deeds, Feats, and Innovations a bit more.
Lock and Load works as a feat, though I think Resolute Shot should stay a deed, and keep its rifling prerequisite.
|
|
I think Resolute Shot should stay a deed, and keep its rifling prerequisite.
Or keep the rifling prerequisite, and make a feat that allows anyone to add one innovation of her choice in the gunslinger's list on any firearm if she meets the prequisites of the innovation and is at least level 4.
This feat wouldn't give the Innovation class feature for the purpose of Extra Innovation. At best, a character would be level 4, get the feat, multiclass into gunslinger for 3 levels, and get the second innovation at the same level the gunslinger would have : level 7 (and eventually get Extra Innovation for one more). The gunslinger could also have got Extra Innovation faster since she benefit from it as a class feature from level 3.Btw, reading Resolute Shot, did you make it a power that needs grit at every use ? I thought you could do it freely...