He's going to be either a human, half-elf or a half-orc, adding the +2 ability score bonus to Wisdom [already figured in] regardless. 25 point build, starting at 2nd level.
Strength 14
Dexterity 12
Constitution 14
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 15 (all ability increases will be pumped into this)
Charisma 14
I was likely going to start him out with a level of fighter for the weapon and armor proficiencies and the feats (especially with a human) and then going straight cleric from there. Would this be a wise choice? I'm new to clerics so would not getting that 20th level of cleric be a big loss overall?
ChuckSC6568 wrote:
I was likely going to start him out with a level of fighter for the weapon and armor proficiencies and the feats (especially with a human) and then going straight cleric from there. Would this be a wise choice?
It would not be wise.
Likewise you seem to suffer from wanting to be a little bit of everything. If you've ever seen the movie 'The Karate Kid' that means 'middle of the road' (aka Karate so-so)....
I would suggest more focused approaches to things.
Do you want to be more support casting or secondary fighting? How much of a face/talker role would you like for him? Any ideas on personality or deity choice?
What do you want out of this character?
-James
+1 focus on what the cleric is good at, being a cleric. Having access to higher level spells one level later is a killer. You will never be as good as a fighter and the only way to get close is to cast spells to get you closer so get more spells.
Bless
Divine Favor
Shield of Faith
Can make you an okay fighter with spell buffs.
You have a 25 point buy so a 19 or a 20 wisdom is not too far of a stretch.
Drop the dex (10 or 8) and the int (10) and focus on your main stat, Wis or Cha.
Not arguing here, but simply offering my explanations.
He wouldn't fall behined the curve as far as gaining access to the higher level spells. With the starting Wisdom of 15, he'd be able to cast everything up to 5th level spells. By the time he got to 11th level and had access to 6th level spells, he's had two ability increases, taking his Wisdom to 17, giving him acess to up to 7th level spells. Following this same pattern of putting all his ability increases into Wisdom, he stays ahead of the spell access curve. He DOES fall behind a bit in bonus spells per level, and ultimately without 20 full levels of cleric misses out on two slots to his spell total, and some of the other assorted increases that come with that final level.
I see the character mostly as a support character, primarily with spells. I know he can't do everything, but I also don't want him to take a full fledged hit to anything he does, so taking an ability below 10 is not something I want to do.
Our GM uses a home brewed list of deities. The closest Pathfinder versions of the gods I'm considering are Torag, Desna, Cayden Cailean, and Pharasma. Wide variation there I know, but still deciding. Personality...I suppose that would largely be influenced by which god I decide on, his personality more or less fitting the god.
The one definite constant regardless of how I go with him is a full on hatred of undead in all their forms.
The character is a generalist and that is not necessarily a bad thing. It seems you want to be a cleric who is able of fighting (yeah, I know he will not fight like the fighter or any full BAB-Class). I would not choose to take a level of fighter. Rather play an oracle.
I'd suggest the following stats:
Str 15(13+2race)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14
Fourth level goes into Strength, the rest in wisdom.
Get yourself a belt of giant strength +2 and a headband of wisdom +2 soon.
Take the travel domain. The other domain is not that important.
I'd go Sword and Board, get a decent AC. Is there a god with a bastard sword as favourite weapon? (In FR there is Kelemvor and another one I think). Possible Feat-Choices: Weapon Focus, Dodge, Mobility, Shield Focus, Combat Casting, Extra Channel, Selective Channel
This is no optimized cleric but I'd like to play it. Hmm. In fact I do, more or less.
Orl
The level of fighter isn't a deal breaker for me I suppose. The weapons proficiencies...I can do without. I would like to have Heavy Armor Proficiency, but I guess I can do that by actually taking the feat, and if I go human, not as big of a deal.
I'm with terok. Get that Wis up to a 19 or 20 with a 25 point buy. Drop the Int or Dex and raise Cha.
The Wis will help with saves for your spells as well as concentration. Clerics always tend to be in the fight, so concentration can come in handy.
The Cha will give you more channels per day and if you take Selective Channeling, it allows you to exclude more enemies from the burst.
If you really want to pick up the heavy armor proficiency along the way and not damage your channel potential, take a dip into the holy vindicator prestige class. A one level dip will lose the level of spells that a fighter dip would, but you maintain your channel progression, get the same BAB and save progression, same HD as a fighter, plus an ability that allows you to channel an AC bonus into your shield, plus heavy armor.
Thanks! Keep the suggestions/opinions coming!
Ok, so maybe for the more support oriented cleric...
Str 12
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18 (includes racial modifier)
Cha 15
Put one ability increase into Charisma and the other four into Wisdom.
ChuckSC6568 wrote: He's going to be either a human, half-elf or a half-orc, adding the +2 ability score bonus to Wisdom [already figured in] regardless. 25 point build, starting at 2nd level.
Strength 14
Dexterity 12
Constitution 14
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 15 (all ability increases will be pumped into this)
Charisma 14
I was likely going to start him out with a level of fighter for the weapon and armor proficiencies and the feats (especially with a human) and then going straight cleric from there. Would this be a wise choice? I'm new to clerics so would not getting that 20th level of cleric be a big loss overall?
Hi Chuck,
First of all, I agree with the general feedback of not "dipping" fighter for weapon and armor profs. Many of the simple weapons are just fine, and don't forget that a cleric is also proficient with their deity's favored weapon.
Second, I'm going to disagree with the "pump-wisdom" crowd. I think there are a lot of ways to play a cleric that don't require maxing the DC of your spells, but you need to recognize that this will limit your options.
Race-wise, I've always liked dwarves for martial clerics - gets you battle axes, heavy picks, and warhammers as weapons, plus if you're planning on going the heavy armor route anyway the lower base speed doesn't matter.
If you go for a half-orc you'll get falchion and greataxe.
As a human you can use the extra feat to buy heavy armor proficiency or martial weapons proficiency, incidentally if you do go human I would recommend lowering your intelligence to 12 and spending those points elsewhere (as you feel appropriate).
As for your thought about getting to 20, you're starting at level 2 and in my experience very few, if any, games last until max level. When I'm starting a new character I usually try and get him to more or less where I want him by level 5-7.
Quote: I was likely going to start him out with a level of fighter for the weapon and armor proficiencies and the feats (especially with a human) and then going straight cleric from there. Would this be a wise choice? I'm new to clerics so would not getting that 20th level of cleric be a big loss overall? Yeah it's not worth losing a caster level, especially early on. Think about it this way: you're always behind in terms of where you are at a certain level. For instance, the game may assume that if you're fighting a certain CR monster, you should have access to spell X. If you're a level behind, you might not have that spell level yet and thus have no answer. If you have a backup full divine caster in the party, do what you want. But if you're the only divine caster, you really need to max out your caster level.
Putting a 13 in Wisdom and then a +2 bonus in it is acceptable (the 3.X mechanics assumed a 15 in your primary spellcasting stat with an elite array), but it's kind of sucky. You aren't "wrong" to do so. You're just not getting much benefit from the +2 stat boost. You're also putting a lot of point buy resources into getting 2 extra skills. That might be necessary. . . but it's very painful to do so. . .
Starting to lean towards the human cleric now. First, there's the bonus feat...'Nuff said. Then of course the Skilled racial trait and/or the Favored Class bonus could help me with skill points and allow me to lover Intelligence to apply the point to other things. With a more support oriented cleric, I'd use that last set of ability scores I posted...
Str 12
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18 (includes racial modifier)
Cha 15
Put one ability increase into Charisma and the other four into Wisdom.
Any other suggestons on this part? Also, anyone have any suggestions for feats?
1: I don't feal the fighter level is worth it. Your going for a support roll not a melee.
2: Spell DC. Lowering your Spell DC by one. can make a huge difrence in game play. At low level you will not notice it. After level 10 you will.
3: You realy need to accept the fact if your not going to make a melee Cleric. You can dump Str and not feal a thing in game play. One of the people I play with has this same problem. He dose not like to have low stats at all. That leads to 70% of the time. He is behind the power curve of the rest of the group. It's not a wright or wrong way to play the game. It's about how to make the charter more effective in there roll.
4: Game play changes at around level 10 to 12. You need to plan for this. So a Charter that works good at level 6 might not work so well at level 12.
5: Make the charter you want to play.
Ok here is my two cents worth. I personaly DM so I don't play this character but put the opposition in front of him. That said The cleric of Gorum wears spiked full plate, carries a greatsword (good damage and has a little reach to it). He took the Strength
Granted Powers: In strength and brawn there is truth—your faith gives you incredible might and power.
Strength Surge (Sp): As a standard action, you can touch a creature to give it great strength. For 1 round, the target gains an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1) to melee attacks, combat maneuver checks that rely on Strength, Strength-based skills, and Strength checks. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Might of the Gods (Su): At 8th level, you can add your cleric level as an enhancement bonus to your Strength score for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. This bonus only applies on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Domain Spells: 1st—enlarge person, 2nd—bull's strength, 3rd—magic vestment, 4th—spell immunity, 5th—righteous might, 6th—stoneskin, 7th—grasping hand, 8th—clenched fist, 9th—crushing hand.
And Destruction
Granted Powers: You revel in ruin and devastation, and can deliver particularly destructive attacks.
Destructive Smite (Su): You gain the destructive smite power: the supernatural ability to make a single melee attack with a morale bonus on damage rolls equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1). You must declare the destructive smite before making the attack. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Destructive Aura (Su): At 8th level, you can emit a 30-foot aura of destruction for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. All attacks made against targets in this aura (including you) gain a morale bonus on damage equal to 1/2 your cleric level and all critical threats are automatically confirmed. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Domain Spells: 1st—true strike, 2nd—shatter, 3rd—rage, 4th—inflict critical wounds, 5th—shout, 6th—harm, 7th—disintegrate, 8th—earthquake, 9th—implosion.
The cleric also has a higher Strength and Wiz bonus and dropped his Charisma a bit (it's not low but not high either) his Int and Dex took big hits but he wears plate so dex?? Therefore this fella is a good little kill bot/buff master with the ability to use nice area affect spells and give the group a healing warrior... it works for them. This fella is really hard to play against he takes it all on melle and casters..
I hope you have fun regardless of choice..
A quote from one of my players
"I'm OK with my character dying; it gives me the opportunity to make a new totally different way to kick ass"
Let's beat a dead horse for starters. Taking a non-Cleric level means nerfing bread and butter spells like Magic Vestment and Magic Weapon and delaying domain abilities from kicking in.
Domains are your friends- there are plenty of good ones, but even more crummy/ situationally useful only ones. Travel domain as an example gets you plus 10' move from level one as granted power, has a beautiful Dimension Door type option at later on. The spell list rocks, giving you utility spells like Teleport and Longstrider (another plus 10' move hours per level) usually off limits to Clerics.
If it's skills you want, I can't offer much. But a Dwarven Cleric gets you awesome saves and Darkvision, a bonus language(meh), and a plus to Wisdom. I think that's worth a feat and then some, but your skills will suffer from it compared to Human. As far as minus to Charisma, I think it's overrated for a Cleric. That's what the cheap Cure Light Wounds wands that the party buys for you (all) are for.
Clerics got hit hard with the nerf bat in Pathfinder, which makes planning them out even more important. If people have links to anything like Cleric Handbooks, please post!
^ agree with just about everything posted here.
For a battle cleric, I think glory is a huge get as a domain as well, bless weapon is a *really* good spell if you get a high crit range weapon.
ChuckSC6568 wrote: Any other suggestons on this part? Also, anyone have any suggestions for feats? It depends on the party needs. A lot of people tend to run down the concept of healing in combat (which is admittedly sub-optimal, but then again, dying is a worse option). Selective Channeling is very helpful to have if you intend to heal in combat. The high Charisma score will help that out a lot.
For a support cleric, one issue is going to be concentration checks. They're a real pain in the butt in PF. I regularly lost spells while casting on the defensive -- and that was after taking Combat Casting and the Focused Mind trait. Yes, the 1 and 2 of my D20 hate me |: Remember you can cast a touch range spell, move into a threatened area, and touch a target as a free action. A good choice might be the Shielded Caster feat. I played a cleric before the APG was released, but this feat might just be worth it.
The stat array for the second option you listed is in my opinion better than the first. I agree with Jame's Karate Kid example. If you played your original choice, at higher levels, you would do far less damage than the dedicated melee and wouldn't be able to affect mobs with spells as much as someone dedicated to casting. So Pathfinder favors clerics that choose which path to follow.
In my opinion, a dedicated cleric caster is easier to build than a melee cleric. It just depends on whether you will be happy playing a character that isn't that useful meleeing in combat - you will still be useful healing and casting.
I believe the best melee cleric build to be one based around the Holy Vindicator (prestige class in the APG). Holy Vindicator gives an AC boosting ability and a combat boosting ability (stigmata) as well as martial weapons and heavy armor.
If you think you are going to be facing undead a lot, consider the Sun domain. Undead do not get turn resistance against Sun domain.
Cleric of Shelyn NG
Goddess of beauty, art, love, music
Domains Luck, Protection (Defense Subdomainin)
Weapon Glave 1D10 X3 Reach
Melee cleric fighing from the 2nd rank. Few if any concentration checks.
Looking at the Holy Vindicator now. Looks like I'd be a LOT better off dipping into a single level of that than I would taking a single level of fighter.
Half Elves can take an exotic weapon proficiency instead of the Skill Focus feat as a racial variant in the APG.
Half Orcs can be really fun with their ability to survive a deadly blow and then heal themselves 1/day. Extra Weapons are ok, too.
ChuckSC6568 wrote: Thanks! Keep the suggestions/opinions coming!
Ok, so maybe for the more support oriented cleric...
Str 12
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18 (includes racial modifier)
Cha 15
Put one ability increase into Charisma and the other four into Wisdom.
Advice:
1. Figure out deity choice, associated domains, favored weapon and how the character is going to act first.
2. Decide on skills you need, those you kinda want, and those that are extra. Make your choice of INT based on the number of skills you need. I would suggest not taking higher than that, whatever it is.
3. Decide on the gear you will wear. Get the STR to cover that and just a little extra and be in medium to heavy encumbrance from that... don't take higher, again whatever score that might be.
4. Pump WIS, CHA & CON. Drop a little into DEX if you wish, or a decent amount if going with halfling & going for stealth (but I'd recommend life oracle for that).
I would start with the following stats, as a base and then adjust from there:
Before racials
STR 07 (+4 points)
INT 07 (+4 points)
WIS 18 (17 points)
DEX 10 (0 points)
CON 14 (5 points)
CHA 16 (10 points)
With 1 point to invest before other adjustments. Now likely you will want a higher INT and/or STR score, possibly even a higher DEX. So what's the point of starting here?
To see what it costs you to do so. Likely you can afford to drop the CHA to 14 base, leaving yourself with 6 points to spend (say an 8 and a 10 in STR/INT, or 8/8/12 in STR/INT/DEX) etc.
People get too fixated on 'needing a 10' in things. There's nothing special about a 10 score.
-James
Ok folks. Looking at the Holy Vindicator prestige class, and I see this...
"At the indicated levels, a vindicator gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the
prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits of that class other than spells per day, spells known, and an increased effective level of spellcasting."
AND
"The vindicator’s class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability."
So if I am a cleric and I take ONE level of Holy Vindicator, am I really losing a whole lot? As far as I can tell, the only things I may be losing are some granted domain powers that would require 20 levels of cleric, and even that would depend on which domain I took.
They also do not get spels at 1st level I believe. But trade that for Base Attack and Hp.
Ah! I see that now! Still doesn't seem like a bad trade,
ChuckSC6568 wrote: Ah! I see that now! Still doesn't seem like a bad trade, Loosing a level of casting is HUGE.
Casting levels scale with the character.
Getting a little bonus doesn't always scale for you.
Let's put it this way- if you could take a feat that would have you casting as a PC a character level higher would you take it? Many would call it insanely broken.
My advice is to decide what you are wanting from the PC. If you want combat focus on combat. If you want support then focus on support. Imho cleric's do support well at all levels without much trouble.
-James
You need to REALLY decide what you want- diety is paramount
Example: If you want a melee cleric then straight Gorum is awesome with the Blood and Rage Subdomains.
Nets you,
Greatsword
Offensively Channel (if you want)
Destructive Smite
Free wounding on your weapon
RAGE (+plus 2 rage powers and access to extra rage power feat- say, reckless abandon, inspire ferocity, moment of clarity)
HUMAN is best here
Indomae is also good (possibly going full holy Vindicator at level 8)
Heroism and Archon domains rock.
Nets you
Longsword
Aura of Courage/Wrath (going HV affects duration but 8 rds is enough)
Bless Weapon/Holy sword
HV has some nice abilities (get magical knack trait)
Human is best
Going with Erastil with a dwarf (one level fighter dip) isgood.
Use a Ranseur (reach/trip build)
Wear heavy armour at no speed loss
Growth and Archon Subdomains
Swift enlarge (with reach weapon ftw and aura of wrath)
Losing 1cl is doable.
Cheers.
"Let's put it this way- if you could take a feat that would have you casting as a PC a character level higher would you take it?"
Isn't that what the Magical Knack trait does?
ChuckSC6568 wrote: "Let's put it this way- if you could take a feat that would have you casting as a PC a character level higher would you take it?"
Isn't that what the Magical Knack trait does?
No, it doesn't increase the number and levels of spells that you can cast.
The problem here is semantics and that they use the same term for multiple things. I don't mean the level at which your spells are cast, but the level for which its determined what spells you can cast.
If you could as a 5th level cleric take a feat that would give you the spellcasting of a 6th level cleric, so that when you leveled to 6th you would then get 4th level spells... would that be a reasonable feat?
-James
Ardenup wrote: You need to REALLY decide what you want- diety is paramount
Example: If you want a melee cleric then straight Gorum is awesome with the Blood and Rage Subdomains.
Nets you,
Greatsword
Offensively Channel (if you want)
Destructive Smite
Free wounding on your weapon
RAGE (+plus 2 rage powers and access to extra rage power feat- say, reckless abandon, inspire ferocity, moment of clarity)
HUMAN is best here
Indomae is also good (possibly going full holy Vindicator at level 8)
Heroism and Archon domains rock.
Nets you
Longsword
Aura of Courage/Wrath (going HV affects duration but 8 rds is enough)
Bless Weapon/Holy sword
HV has some nice abilities (get magical knack trait)
Human is best
Going with Erastil with a dwarf (one level fighter dip) isgood.
Use a Ranseur (reach/trip build)
Wear heavy armour at no speed loss
Growth and Archon Subdomains
Swift enlarge (with reach weapon ftw and aura of wrath)
Losing 1cl is doable.
Cheers.
Also that dwarf build is nice if you go Animal (fur) and Good (Archon) Subdomain.
Take Wpn Fcs: Falchion and Steel Soul with your fighter level.
Boon companion- wolf at 5
Outflank, Paired Oppourtunists (you and wolf)
Now when you flank with a menacing Wpn, you and your wolf, buddy get +6 to attack (Outflank, menacing) and free attacks on a critical.
You got predators Grace speed bonus to help you close.
Wolf auto trips on a hit (up to huge)
Aura of Wrath helps everybody hit
When I mentioned holy vindicator, it was only for a melee combat build. If you are making a caster cleric, you shouldn't take any classes that reduce your casting ability.
I don't view holy vindicator as a dip class for a melee cleric - I would build it with 10 levels of holy vindicator. Something like C1-7/HV1-10/C8-10. At level 20 it would have cleric level 17 casting, BAB+17, and stigmata as a swift action for +5 insight bonus to hit or damage or saves or AC.
I almost went with this build on the last campaign my group started. Instead, I went with Paladin - go figure.
Nothing wrong with sacrificing for HV.
As long as you take the magical knack trait, it works well.
CL 19 gets you full bonuses on level dependent spell effects (like divine power)
and it meshes well with action economy.
For exmple there is less need for quicken spell feat (which most builds use for quickened Divine Power. With a Glory (Heroism) Subdomain cleric you can be ready to rock in 1rd.
Swift Aura of Heroism, Move action Stigmata and Standard Action Divine Power in one round and you're ready to rock.
Like wise a Cleric of Gorum could
cast, stigmata and rage all in one round. (He'd need to have taken Extra Rage feat for a decent duration though)
I've found what you sacrifice in spell levels you make up for in dpr.
Ardenup wrote: Nothing wrong with sacrificing for HV.
As long as you take the magical knack trait, it works well.
CL 19 gets you full bonuses on level dependent spell effects (like divine power)
and it meshes well with action economy.
For exmple there is less need for quicken spell feat (which most builds use for quickened Divine Power. With a Glory (Heroism) Subdomain cleric you can be ready to rock in 1rd.
Swift Aura of Heroism, Move action Stigmata and Standard Action Divine Power in one round and you're ready to rock.
Like wise a Cleric of Gorum could
cast, stigmata and rage all in one round. (He'd need to have taken Extra Rage feat for a decent duration though)
I've found what you sacrifice in spell levels you make up for in dpr.
Depending on what the OP wants- Going with the straight Cleric 20,
Rage and Blood Subdomains.are probably the easiest way to be bothmelee and support Caster.
He would not lose a single spell level and could stack a furious weapon with rage for +4 to hit and damage while raging. He'd need to spend his 2 rage powers on Moment of clarity to cast while raging and reckless abandon would add another +3 to hit.
Stacking with a quickened Divine power
Swift DP (+6 to hit and damage)
Cast group buff (standard)
Rage (free action- +7 to hit- reckless abandon, furious Wpn, +4 to damage)
Move to close
All in the first.round...Hell yeah
Move to close
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