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Right lets get to it. House rule or does it make it under standard play rules?
Game Rules
- Serpent Skull Adv path
- Group will be 7 players with only a fighter and a Duelist as main line fighters, no straight magic users, druid and a ranger (ranged).
- Pathfinder only core books /good aligned / Serpent Skull adv path / 15 point buy in / Classes PH and AdvPH only
The premise... C-G Halfling Bard Trixem Willowspring of the Famous Willowspring distillery snd his half brother (Halfling bard PC not yet complete) has found their Father has gone missing on a Pathfinder Society mission (adv. path Serpent Skull) we will be going on the adv to find him or determine if he has died as the Will he left behind is vague (to say the least) about who gets what of the Family fortune between the half brothers.
At 9th level I was going to ask the DM to allow me to take on a Eidolon as my cohort under these conditions/background. My half brother and I are always getting in over our heads and fighting (all in good fun). A good hearted yet free spirited outsider called an Eidolon appears as our ghostly long time pasted Halfling grandfather who is worried that the family name will perish on this adv and has come to the material plane to ensure the survival of the brothers.
Eidolon
- No access to Special abilities on the base statistics table
- He will have access to the rest of the table as a cohort level 2 below my main level as leadership feat states.
- appearance is that of a ghostly Halfling small sized and no evolutions will change his size only add to his "ghostly powers"
Reasoning
Leadership feat - Pg. 129 player handbook Cohort Level[i/] states: "A cohort can be of any race or class."
Summoner - Pg. 55 advance player's guide [i]Eidolon states: "A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon." He qualifies as an outsider.
Outsider - Pg. 309 Bestiary States: (under creature types) "An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plance other thean the Material Plane.
I never played a summoner but have heard that Eidolons terrible unbalance a game. I am hoping that being 2 levels lower and no special abilities off the table along with small size and evolutions that make him more "ghostly" and don't change his size will lower his power level.
Question
- Can this work within the Pathfinder game rules?
- Would the Eidolon suffer under the rules of being a summoned creature or could it be treated as a native ooutsider or maybe a gated in creature?
- Would it appear as an Eidolon of it equal cohort level on the table and then progress as an Eidolon or could it take class levels?
Right lets get to it. House rule or does it make it under standard play rules?
Game Rules
- Serpent Skull Adv path
- Group will be 7 players with only a fighter and a Duelist as main line fighters, no straight magic users, druid and a ranger (ranged).
- Pathfinder only core books /good aligned / Serpent Skull adv path / 15 point buy in / Classes PH and AdvPH onlyThe premise... C-G Halfling Bard Trixem Willowspring of the Famous Willowspring distillery snd his half brother (Halfling bard PC not yet complete) has found their Father has gone missing on a Pathfinder Society mission (adv. path Serpent Skull) we will be going on the adv to find him or determine if he has died as the Will he left behind is vague (to say the least) about who gets what of the Family fortune between the half brothers.
At 9th level I was going to ask the DM to allow me to take on a Eidolon as my cohort under these conditions/background. My half brother and I are always getting in over our heads and fighting (all in good fun). A good hearted yet free spirited outsider called an Eidolon appears as our ghostly long time pasted Halfling grandfather who is worried that the family name will perish on this adv and has come to the material plane to ensure the survival of the brothers.Eidolon
- No access to Special abilities on the base statistics table
- He will have access to the rest of the table as a cohort level 2 below my main level as leadership feat states.
- appearance is that of a ghostly Halfling small sized and no evolutions will change his size only add to his "ghostly powers"Reasoning
Leadership feat - Pg. 129 player handbook Cohort Level[i/] states: "A cohort can be of any race or class."
Summoner - Pg. 55 advance player's guide [i]Eidolon states: "A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon." He qualifies as an outsider.
Outsider - Pg. 309 Bestiary States: (under creature[/i]...
The Eidolon is a class feature that functions based on the Summoner's level just like a druid animal companion or a familiar gets its power from the main class, so by the rules it can't happen. You will need to houserule it in.
I agree it will need to be house ruled. But an Eidoln is a Race or Outsiders or I reading it wrong in the books. They exist and are not just created when summoned right?
They exist on the edges of reality. The summoner finds a way to reach them mentally, and bring an aspect of them to the material plane. The stronger the connection between them the stronger the manifestion of the Eidolon on the material plane.
That is my interpretation of them anyway, and yes they are outsiders.
Get a gnome summoner cohort. Have the summoner use reduce person and hide in your backpack.
Now you have an eidolon and a automated spell dispenser strapped to your back.
In a game that already has 7 players, and a druid, the last thing I would be looking for is more bodies on the map! I think you're asking for a great many rules issues, and slower combats.
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In a game that already has 7 players, and a druid, the last thing I would be looking for is more bodies on the map! I think you're asking for a great many rules issues, and slower combats.
Sorry got to get use to these boards... wrong button first time. lol
True guess i shoulde of said the 7th player is the DM. None of the others have animal cohorts or extra creatures. My Bard and my Half brother are none combatants (I am Indiana Jones type with a whip) and he is a Magician. I would only be buffing my Cohort in battle and protecting my brother as he "casts".
Why an Eidolon? The whole idea there is its a build your own monster kit where you can make a four armed snake the breathes acid clouds and sticks to walls etc....
Using that system to make a ghost hobbit.... I just don't see the logic in it.
A ghostly half-ling should probably just be a half-ling of whatever class makes the most sense with some kind of ghost template put on it and I'd allow it so long as it was not as powerful as the characters were and it would largely be under my control as the GM (from an RP perspective), though certainly it would be loyal to the character and I'd let them play it in combat situations.
I just think you are barking up the wrong tree from a rules perspective.
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Reading literally from the text:
A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages.
It seems very much what happens is that a Summoner makes an initial contact with some otherwordly being... a being beyond alignment and form and essentially carves a piece off of it. That piece becomes the Eidolon he summons from thence forward. So Eidolons don't have a conventional pre-existence in the strict sense.
So yes, it's not only a house rule it would be one that would require a rexamination and modification of the nature of the Summoner in your game.
The other question you should ask yourself. Should someone be able to duplicate the main class feature of another class for the price of a feat?
I agree houserule. I thought it interesting that as written it does qualify for Leadership feat just no rules to go about how to attract one or what their natural state is on their home plane.
I don;t think i am duplicating a summoners main class feature. Take out the special lists(link, evasion, multiattack and extra stat points) and all you have is a hardy creature like any other in the Bestiary. That you have to verbally give orders (as an action) not free as a summoner and its two levels lower on the chart. I think a summoners of equal level would blow mine away. That and I am nerfing it by keeping it small and not taking any of the broken evolutions.
Thanks for the post... good stuff to think about.
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Why an Eidolon? The whole idea there is its a build your own monster kit where you can make a four armed snake the breathes acid clouds and sticks to walls etc....
Using that system to make a ghost hobbit.... I just don't see the logic in it.
A ghostly half-ling should probably just be a half-ling of whatever class makes the most sense with some kind of ghost template put on it and I'd allow it so long as it was not as powerful as the characters were and it would largely be under my control as the GM (from an RP perspective), though certainly it would be loyal to the character and I'd let them play it in combat situations.
I just think you are barking up the wrong tree from a rules perspective.
RP reasons. My character and my friends are RP only we will be pretty much useless in direct combat and only mid level buffers. I like Eidolon as it states it can look like anything and the idea of our "ghostly" grandfather keeping us in check and alive for the family name is funny to me.
I agree a ghost template would be a very good idea but i will never get that by my DM.
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Leadership could give you a Summoner and their Eidolon. You're deliberately nerfing to only take the Eidolon, so that's in no way overpowered.
If the DM usually uses NPC stats for a Cohort, then they might want to lower the base stats for the form, but again you're giving up taking a buffing caster for just one part (albeit a large part) of their class.
As long as the rules for the Eidolon are actually followed, they're not broken, at best on par with a fighter of the same level, and that's counting the summoner buffs that you're giving up. Definitely no need to be reducing its abilities further.
There was a "wild cohort" feat that WotC had on their web site (for 3.5) that was approximately equivalent to an animal companion of a Druid four levels lower than the character's level.
Using that as justification, you could set up something to get your own eidolon.
A flavorful idea (ghost of grandfather watching over grandchildren) that can not be approached in conventional game mechanics (undead/ghosts too powerful, no physical presence, conflicting abilities, no way to take as cohort with leadership).
So you turn to an alternate but similar spectrum, one that is already broken down into a level-by-level progression. The eidolon. Technically, you could gain one via leadership regardless by taking a summoner as a cohort. And as said previously, you would get all of the benefits and utility of having the summoner.
You have even submitted that you don't want any of the special abilities. This will create one small power increase, namely that the absence of the Link will mean both you and the eidolon can wear gear in the same slot. However, the lack of several other key abilities are definite power downgrades. Healing the eidolon will also be an issue.
Personally, and this is all my opinion as a DM who is both very aware of the mechanics of the game and very happy to see flavorful ideas brought forward, I would allow it on the following conditions.
The eidolon receives no special abilities, as listed in the summoner or the eidolon progressions, beyond its evolution points, nat armor, and ability ups.
The eidolon progresses as an eidolon, and may not take regular class levels.
No silly eidolon dissapears when you are unconcious.
DM reserves right to make neccessary changes if the Eidolon cohort is either too powerful OR too weak. Remove of Eidolon cohort is a LAST RESORT if no appropriate power level can be easily (not making extra concessions or slowing down the game/annoying other players) reached.
I appreciate the input. So in terms of game blance would a Eidolon cohort be too powerful without all the summoner add ons but equipted with gear appropriate for its cohort level?
The Eidolon is supposed to split his gear with the summoner, and the fact that you can take HP from the Eidolon by attacking the summoner(if you can get him below 0 HP) is another balancing factor. The leadership feat would not provide for this. There is also the issue of a banished Eidolon. How would you get it back? With all its exception based rules it is already hard enough to run and play correctly as is, and a houserule would just add more rules exception. I have yet to see one made without mistakes using the regular rules. I am sure there are other issues that I would notice if I had the book in front of me.
PS:I take that back. The ones in a PVP I am running was made well, but so far it seems that less than 10% of them are done correctly
I like it!Get a gnome summoner cohort. Have the summoner use reduce person and hide in your backpack.
Now you have an eidolon and a automated spell dispenser strapped to your back.
There was a thread with this tactic in it a while ago, and for reasons I can't remember it was deemed a bad idea.
I agree a ghost template would be a very good idea but i will never get that by my DM.
If your GM will take an eidolon (houseruled) over a legitimate halfling with ghost template, then I worry for your sanity ;p
I appreciate the input. So in terms of game blance would a Eidolon cohort be too powerful without all the summoner add ons but equipted with gear appropriate for its cohort level?The Eidolon is supposed to split his gear with the summoner, and the fact that you can take HP from the Eidolon by attacking the summoner(if you can get him below 0 HP) is another balancing factor. The leadership feat would not provide for this. There is also the issue of a banished Eidolon. How would you get it back? With all its exception based rules it is already hard enough to run and play correctly as is, and a houserule would just add more rules exception. I have yet to see one made without mistakes using the regular rules. I am sure there are other issues that I would notice if I had the book in front of me.
PS:I take that back. The ones in a PVP I am running was made well, but so far it seems that less than 10% of them are done correctly
I don't think it would be overpowered. Yes, he's wearing equipment. No, he's no more powerful than a fighter of the same level wearing equipment, since he get's no class benefits.
I do agree on the whole 'exception' issue though. I think the eidelon would have to be not really an Eidelon, just an outsider built using the Eidelon rules that was gated in. If he's gated, and he's banished, then you get a new cohort or pay to have him gated back. If he dies, he dies. Get a new cohort. :)
Since you could, as pointed out above, get a summoner cohort and still get the same eidelon, I don't consider it too over powered.
I appreciate the input. So in terms of game blance would a Eidolon cohort be too powerful without all the summoner add ons but equipted with gear appropriate for its cohort level?The Eidolon is supposed to split his gear with the summoner, and the fact that you can take HP from the Eidolon by attacking the summoner(if you can get him below 0 HP) is another balancing factor. The leadership feat would not provide for this. There is also the issue of a banished Eidolon. How would you get it back? With all its exception based rules it is already hard enough to run and play correctly as is, and a houserule would just add more rules exception. I have yet to see one made without mistakes using the regular rules. I am sure there are other issues that I would notice if I had the book in front of me.
PS:I take that back. The ones in a PVP I am running was made well, but so far it seems that less than 10% of them are done correctly
I don't think it would be overpowered. Yes, he's wearing equipment. No, he's no more powerful than a fighter of the same level wearing equipment, since he get's no class benefits.
I do agree on the whole 'exception' issue though. I think the eidelon would have to be not really an Eidelon, just an outsider built using the Eidelon rules that was gated in. If he's gated, and he's banished, then you get a new cohort or pay to have him gated back. If he dies, he dies. Get a new cohort. :)
Since you could, as pointed out above, get a summoner cohort and still get the same eidelon, I don't consider it too over powered.
I agree that it is not too powerful, but just too complicated when all the "what if's" that had not been thought of come into play. I think using the Eidolon building rules without getting an actual Eidolon is the best idea presented so far.
I agree that it is not too powerful, but just too complicated when all the "what if's" that had not been thought of come into play. I think using the Eidolon building rules without getting an actual Eidolon is the best idea presented so far.
Just have to fluff the evolution restructuring a bit. :) My personal favorite for that would be the outsider enters a cocoon on occasion for a week or two. When it emerges, it's a bit more powerful each time. Healthier, stronger, faster. :) Sometimes it's not even remotely the same as it was before.
Certain ritual magic can allow the outsider to enter a cocoon state early. This doesn't make him healthier, but he may emerge completely different again (reskinned spell of evo redist).