Quote: hp 60 (8d10+16); regeneration 2 (good weapons and spells, silver weapons) This may be a silly question, but... do all spells bypass regeneration, or do only good spells bypass regeneration? I guess if it were all spells, it would say "good weapons, spells, silver weapons" but just want to be sure.
Quote: Melee 4 chains +11 (2d4+2)
Space 5 ft; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with chains)
Chain Armor (Ex) The chains that adorn a kyton grant it a +4 armor bonus, but are not treated as armor for the purpose of arcane spell failure, armor check penalties, maximum Dexterity, weight, or proficiency.
Dancing Chains (Su) A kyton can control up to four chains within 20 feet as a standard action, making the chains dance or move as it wishes. In addition, a kyton can increase these chains' length by up to 15 feet and cause them to sprout razor-edged barbs. These chains attack as effectively as the kyton itself. If a chain is in another creature's possession, the creature can attempt a DC 15 Will save to break the kyton's power over that chain. If the save is successful, the kyton cannot attempt to control that particular chain again for 24 hours or until the chain leaves the creature's possession. A kyton can climb chains it controls at its normal speed without making Climb checks. The save DC is Charisma-based.
The description makes it seem like the kyton is wearing a set of chains over its body, and that they are not actually normal armor, but that the kyton has an extraordinary ability to make them function like armor. And additionally, these chains aren't weapons either (certainly not the normal spiked chain), but the kyton's supernatural ability to control chains allows it to make attacks with these chains... as well as any other chains within 20 ft (including the spiked chain of another creature) but no more than 4 all at once.
My first question is about the reach of the Dancing Chains ability. How much longer can it make a chain? The info in the creature entry seems contradictory. The attack block says its chains have a 10 ft reach, but the Dancing Chains description says it can increase the length of a chain by 15 ft. The creature is Medium, so the chains draped over its body probably aren't much longer than 5 ft, and certainly not 10 ft because that would probably hamper movement or give it a penalty to Stealth...anyway, this would make it seem like these chains have a normal reach of 5 ft, but that the kyton can increase their reach by 5 ft, so that is why the attack block says 10 ft with chains. Whereas, if the kyton could increase chain length by 15 ft, wouldn't the 5 ft chains on its body have a reach of 20 ft?
My second question is about a player who wants to befriend a kyton. He is using the variant summoning rules from the 3.5 DMG that allow him to summon the same individual creature each time and give it equipment if he can actually call it to the material plane. Anyway, he wants to give it 4 masterwork spiked chains to increase its attack bonus, and he thought that the amount (4) was appropriate because the attack block and description mention 4 chains, so he thought it could wield 4 spiked chains. However, as far as I can tell, the kyton is not proficient with the spiked chain, nor could it wield 4 different two-handed weapons in its 2 hands. At best, it could wield one spiked chain in its hand at a -4 penalty for non-proficiency. Does that seem correct?
What I could see working is that if the spiked chains were nearby and not wielded by anyone else, the kyton could use its Dancing Chains ability to move the spiked chains and attack with them. Yes? Although, since this creature will be summoned more often than called, I was wondering if it could hold 4 two-handed weapons in its 2 hands at all times, and even if it could...would it? Seeing how it usually has a set of chains draped over its body at all times that require no effort to hold, I just wonder if it would want to carry around these extra spiked chains all the time. Cos if it didn't carry them all the time, it might not have them on hand every time that it is summoned.
My last questions is about the reach of the Dancing Chains ability... in addition to the question above about how much in can increase length... the ability works within 20 ft, so does a chain that has its length increased need the increased part to remain within 20 ft to function? Because the chains within 20 ft can lengthen and sprout sharp barbs, so a 5 ft chain could increase to 10 ft, or a spiked chain with a 10 ft could increase to 15 ft...all within the reach of this ability... but what happens when the chain goes outside this ability? Since it does not extend past 20 ft, does this attack go limp and the barbs vanish when a controlled chains tries to attack beyond 20 ft?
reefwood wrote: This may be a silly question, but... do all spells bypass regeneration, or do only good spells bypass regeneration? Just good aligned spells as written.
reefwood wrote: The description makes it seem like the kyton is wearing a set of chains over its body, and that they are not actually normal armor, but that the kyton has an extraordinary ability to make them function like armor. And additionally, these chains aren't weapons either (certainly not the normal spiked chain), but the kyton's supernatural ability to control chains allows it to make attacks with these chains... as well as any other chains within 20 ft (including the spiked chain of another creature) but no more than 4 all at once. The chains on the body provide an AC armor bonus but no further stats as normal armor would have. It does not say the armor being used as chains is used for the dancing chains. If it used his chain armor, then he would lose the AC bonus. The dancing chains are not the chain armor or the 4 chains it normally has, but any random chain laying around.
reefwood wrote: My first question is about the reach of the Dancing Chains ability. How much longer can it make a chain? Dancing chains do not apply to the chains he normally uses or the chain armor. The ability adds 15ft to each chain for any normal chains left laying about.
reefwood wrote: However, as far as I can tell, the kyton is not proficient with the spiked chain, nor could it wield 4 different two-handed weapons in its 2 hands. At best, it could wield one spiked chain in its hand at a -4 penalty for non-proficiency. Does that seem correct? Under Equipment in the Core rules, a chain is 30 gp. Make him pay 330 gp for a MW chain. I would rule the Kyton as non-proficient with a spiked chain since he has Weapon Focus{chain} and not spiked-chain, but he gets 4 attacks with his normal chain. It is an outsider, which usually have different cool abilities creatures which creatures from the prime plane don't.
reefwood wrote: What I could see working is that if the spiked chains were nearby and not wielded by anyone else, the kyton could use its Dancing Chains ability to move the spiked chains and attack with them. Yes? Although, since this creature will be summoned more often than called, I was wondering if it could hold 4 two-handed weapons in its 2 hands at all times, and even if it could...would it? If he used
dancing chains with 4 MW spiked chains, I would allow the +1 to hit. Since he doesn't have Weapon Focus(spiked chain), he has the same attack bonus as he would a normal attack (+8 BAB, +2 Str) and add +1 for the MW quality. And allow the Kyton only 1 2-hand weapon, nothing says he can use any 2-hand weapon with one hand, much less two 2-hand weapons in one hand. As I said earlier, he attacks with 1 chain 4 times.
reefwood wrote: My last questions is about the reach of the Dancing Chains ability... in addition to the question above about how much in can increase length... the ability works within 20 ft, so does a chain that has its length increased need the increased part to remain within 20 ft to function? Because the chains within 20 ft can lengthen and sprout sharp barbs, so a 5 ft chain could increase to 10 ft, or a spiked chain with a 10 ft could increase to 15 ft...all within the reach of this ability... but what happens when the chain goes outside this ability? Since it does not extend past 20 ft, does this attack go limp and the barbs vanish when a controlled chains tries to attack beyond 20 ft? The chains can only attack creatures within the 20 foot radius. I would rule they go limp and definitely lose the barbed aspect if they went beyond 20 foot. If even 1 link of chain is in the 20ft area, I would allow the 15 foot increase, with the chain outside the 20ft unaffected. But he could pull at the part of the chain in the 20 foot area to bring in the rest of the chain.
My Kyton Interpretation A Kyton uses a single chain in his hands for his 4 attacks. His armor chain is separate. He can affect chains only within 20 ft with dancing chain for attacking, moving, and making razor sharp. If the chain is secured outside the 20ft area, then he can only pull the slack into his area.
All this being said, I do not allow 3.5 stuff into my PF campaign. And I never liked the variant summoning rules to begin with...
reefwood wrote: My second question is about a player who wants to befriend a kyton. He is using the variant summoning rules from the 3.5 DMG that allow him to summon the same individual creature each time and give it equipment if he can actually call it to the material plane. Anyway, he wants to give it 4 masterwork spiked chains to increase its attack bonus, and he thought that the amount (4) was appropriate because the attack block and description mention 4 chains, so he thought it could wield 4 spiked chains. However, as far as I can tell, the kyton is not proficient with the spiked chain, nor could it wield 4 different two-handed weapons in its 2 hands. At best, it could wield one spiked chain in its hand at a -4 penalty for non-proficiency. Does that seem correct? Your interpretation is correct. The Kyton isn't wielding a spiked chain or multiple spiked chains. It's best to think of what it does as it's own form of natural attack.
By the way the Kyton IS a devil. Keep that in mind as regarding any form of "friendship".
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
By the way the Kyton IS a devil.
not it's not, it's a Kyton. a lawful Evil Outsider from the Hells(sometimes) with the Evil, lawful, Extraplanar and Kyton subtypes, compared to say, an Ice Devil (Gelugon) which which is a Lawful Evil Outsider from Hell with the Evil, Lawful, Extraplanar and Devil substypes.
Note how Kytons don't have the Devil Subtype, and that in their description the fact that they are called Chain Devils is called out saying that they aren't actually devils, they just sometimes live in the Hells..
Bestiary pgs 77 and 185 for reference.
Karjak Rustscale wrote: LazarX wrote:
By the way the Kyton IS a devil.
not it's not, it's a Kyton. a lawful Evil Outsider from the Hells(sometimes) with the Evil, lawful, Extraplanar and Kyton subtypes, compared to say, an Ice Devil (Gelugon) which which is a Lawful Evil Outsider from Hell with the Evil, Lawful, Extraplanar and Devil substypes.
Note how Kytons don't have the Devil Subtype, and that in their description the fact that they are called Chain Devils is called out saying that they aren't actually devils, they just sometimes live in the Hells..
Bestiary pgs 77 and 185 for reference. True. Kytons are too awesome to be Devils.
Thanks for the input so far.
I know that a kyton isn't a devil, and I agree that making friends with evil can be bad news, but for the most part, this kyton will probably be a summoned creature, and it seems that summoned creatures will do just about anything that caster wants as long as communication is possible and they are smart enough to carry out the orders.
What I have taken away from this so far and feeling comfortable agreeing with is...
1) A kyton is not proficient with a spiked chain, so it would take a -4 penalty to wield this weapon in its hand. However, since a spiked chain is a type of chain, the kyton can use its Dancing Chains ability to make the spiked chain longer and make a "dancing attack".
2) The Dancing Chain ability only affects chains within 20 ft, so if a target is further away than 20 ft, this ability cannot attack it.
However, I am still unclear about how the kyton makes its regular chain attacks (4 attacks with 1 chain? using 4 chains from its armor? something else?) and why they only reach 10 ft, whereas the Dancing Chains ability reaches +15 ft.
EDIT: Upon further thought, I disagree with the interpretation that the kyton is making 4 attacks with 1 chain because of how the attack block is written. If it was making 4 attacks with 1 chain, I believe it would say: "Chain +11/+11/+11/+11 (2d4+2)"
Instead, it says "4 chains +11 (2d4+2)" much like the skeleton that says "2 claws (1d6)" that indicate it has 2 claws and attacks once with each claw...as opposed to attacking twice with 1 claw.
I was randomly browsing the Planar Handbook, and found the writeup of Kytons as a high-powered playable race there. In this writeup, I found the following ability:
Planar Handbook, p. 22 wrote: Spiked Chains: Chain devils treat spiked chains as primary natural weapons and can make two attacks per round with them. Each attack uses the kyton’s full Strength bonus. Obviously, this is D&D, so not canon for PF, but in lack of any other ruling, this may actually be worth considering.
amorangias wrote: I was randomly browsing the Planar Handbook, and found the writeup of Kytons as a high-powered playable race there. In this writeup, I found the following ability:
Planar Handbook, p. 22 wrote: Spiked Chains: Chain devils treat spiked chains as primary natural weapons and can make two attacks per round with them. Each attack uses the kyton’s full Strength bonus. Obviously, this is D&D, so not canon for PF, but in lack of any other ruling, this may actually be worth considering.
Thanks for the tip, but I am sticking to PF material right now.
At this point, I'm mostly curious why the Kyton has 4 chain attacks that reach 10 ft, but its Dancing Chains ability can control 4 chains and increase their length by 15 ft. Is this an error, or can it not make its own chains dance? And if its own chains can't dance, how is it able to use 4 of them when it only has 2 hands?
I feel like the Dancing Chain ability is supposed to only increase chain length by 5 ft. That way, if the chains on its body are 5 ft long (from head to toe), then this ability is what allows these chains to have a 10 ft reach.
reefwood wrote: amorangias wrote: I was randomly browsing the Planar Handbook, and found the writeup of Kytons as a high-powered playable race there. In this writeup, I found the following ability:
Planar Handbook, p. 22 wrote: Spiked Chains: Chain devils treat spiked chains as primary natural weapons and can make two attacks per round with them. Each attack uses the kyton’s full Strength bonus. Obviously, this is D&D, so not canon for PF, but in lack of any other ruling, this may actually be worth considering.
Thanks for the tip, but I am sticking to PF material right now.
At this point, I'm mostly curious why the Kyton has 4 chain attacks that reach 10 ft, but its Dancing Chains ability can control 4 chains and increase their length by 15 ft. Is this an error, or can it not make its own chains dance? And if its own chains can't dance, how is it able to use 4 of them when it only has 2 hands?
I feel like the Dancing Chain ability is supposed to only increase chain length by 5 ft. That way, if the chains on its body are 5 ft long (from head to toe), then this ability is what allows these chains to have a 10 ft reach. The Kyton has two tricks actually, it has natural attacks which look like chains, a la Spawn (which is probably the inspiration for this critter) and it can do magical tricks with ordinary chains.
I didn't feel like starting my own thread about kytons, so I'll just resurrect this one.
Does a kyton's Dancing Chains ability require a standard action each round to keep it going, or just a standard action to start and it keeps going indefinitely?
Do the Kyton's chains threaten?
I mean, do they threaten at their reach/length?
Delenot wrote: I mean, do they threaten at their reach/length? Check the date. Threadnomancy is bad. Let sleeping threads lie.
Wow! Never noticed the date. Does unintended threadomancy still count?
But since I've already broken decorum, do they threaten at length?
Since the description of the kyton chains states "These chains attack as effectively as the kyton itself," I'd say they threaten. AoO would trigger under all normal circumstances, and the chains have 10 ft. reach.
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