Spell to cut a divine spellcaster off from their god?


Rules Questions


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I could swear I recently saw a spell designed to cut a divine spellcaster off from their deity, thereby depriving them of their spellcasting ability.

Unfortunately, I can't find it now. I'm fairly confident that it was in a third-party supplement written for Pathfinder, but there's a chance it may have been 3.5.

Anyone know of anything like this?


There was such a spell in 3.5, but I'll be damned if I can't remember where it is (much less the name itself).

Contributor

Back in first edition, Command Word "Blaspheme" was your two-syllable ticket to defrocked clerics and fallen paladins, or at least having them in need of an Atonement spell. Unfortunately, the new Command has been nerfed to a limited menu of dumpy options.


Well, in Pathfinder only, you can do it with Beguiling Gift and a Helm of Opposite Alignment. Hang onto the Helm, cast the spell and then offer the cursed item.

Cleric Alignment wrote:
Alignment: A cleric's alignment must be within one step of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis (see Additional Rules).

Also, depending on how one reads the spell Charm Person, one might be able to use Atonement to convert a person's alignment. Under strict RAW, the Charm X spells do not force the charmed to do anything, it just suggests a certain course of action rather persuasively.


said spell was in 3.5

it was in the spell compendium.

it went with the image of the cleric being denied turning undead and being munched on....


I've always had sort of a cheesy issue with the notion that cutting a cleric off from his god somehow immediately deprived him of spells.

Channeling energy, yes, I can see that. Domain powers, yes. Those are all "streaming" from the cleric's god, so-to-speak.

But a cleric memorizes spells. He downloads them to his hard drive. So to my mind, whatever a cleric had memorized at the time he was cut off, he still has until he uses them up.

Unless his god actively deprives him of those spells. Which any useful god would not do just because somebody else cast a spell on you.


Steelfiredragon wrote:


said spell was in 3.5

it was in the spell compendium.

it went with the image of the cleric being denied turning undead and being munched on....

That, in 3.0 scarred lands setting there were a few more spells for that.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Steelfiredragon wrote:


said spell was in 3.5

it was in the spell compendium.

it went with the image of the cleric being denied turning undead and being munched on....

That's the divine interdiction spell, which prevents a divine spellcaster from utilizing domain powers or being able to channel energy.

The spell I thought I saw somewhere actually cut off divine spellcasting ability.


Feeblemind should do the trick.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Bruunwald wrote:

I've always had sort of a cheesy issue with the notion that cutting a cleric off from his god somehow immediately deprived him of spells.

Channeling energy, yes, I can see that. Domain powers, yes. Those are all "streaming" from the cleric's god, so-to-speak.

But a cleric memorizes spells. He downloads them to his hard drive. So to my mind, whatever a cleric had memorized at the time he was cut off, he still has until he uses them up.

Unless his god actively deprives him of those spells. Which any useful god would not do just because somebody else cast a spell on you.

I don't disagree. Traditionally (I've seen this issue come up in odd cases across multiple editions of the game), spells that were prepared stayed prepared even if the god cut you off, died, or something else. You'd already received that energy, and could use it as you wished.

That said, presuming that I'm not misremembering, the spell that I saw didn't operate under that presumption.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's in SGG's Guide to the Mystic Godling.

Contributor

It's called antimagic field.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

You could steal their holy symbol. That makes it real hard to cast divine spells.


A wish spell will do the trick, the specifics will have to be sorted out by the GM though.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
It's called antimagic field.

Given that it is centered on my character, and he'd then have to stay close to a given divine spellcaster, I don't think this is quite what I'm looking for.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

You could also ready an action to cast shatter on their divine focus if they try to cast a spell.

Sovereign Court

Alzrius wrote:
Given that it is centered on my character, and he'd then have to stay close to a given divine spellcaster, I don't think this is quite what I'm looking for.

I don't know, have you ever seen a cleric in an anti magic field? They are pretty useless.


Get one antimagiced wizard and one antimagiced cleric. Stand them next to each other. Wizard's nonmagical AC will be probably worse than Cleric's, his attack roll worse, his melee damage probably too, well you get the idea. Add bonus points for catfight if both are female with higher than avarage Charisma.

Contributor

Taking away a primary class feature with such a specifically targeted effect ("I cut off your divine spellcasting," "I block your arcane spellcasting," "I negate your bardic music," "you can no longer make attack rolls," "you can no longer sneak attack") is kind of a jerk thing to do and kind of bad game design as well.

A general effect that happens to have that outcome is okay (such as an antimagic field blocking spellcasting, a hold person making a fighter unable to attack, silence negating bardic performance, and so on), but specifically targeting a class feature is generally very metagame-ish and should be discouraged.

Shadow Lodge

Bruunwald wrote:

I've always had sort of a cheesy issue with the notion that cutting a cleric off from his god somehow immediately deprived him of spells.

Channeling energy, yes, I can see that. Domain powers, yes. Those are all "streaming" from the cleric's god, so-to-speak.

But a cleric memorizes spells. He downloads them to his hard drive. So to my mind, whatever a cleric had memorized at the time he was cut off, he still has until he uses them up.

Unless his god actively deprives him of those spells. Which any useful god would not do just because somebody else cast a spell on you.

One of the reasons I've never liked divine spellcasters being prepared spellcasters. You can only remember so many prayers per day? Seems goofy to me.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Taking away a primary class feature with such a specifically targeted effect ("I cut off your divine spellcasting," "I block your arcane spellcasting," "I negate your bardic music," "you can no longer make attack rolls," "you can no longer sneak attack") is kind of a jerk thing to do and kind of bad game design as well.

A general effect that happens to have that outcome is okay (such as an antimagic field blocking spellcasting, a hold person making a fighter unable to attack, silence negating bardic performance, and so on), but specifically targeting a class feature is generally very metagame-ish and should be discouraged.

It'd certainly be a high-level spell to target a major class ability like that, but I don't think it's necessarily any worse than a spell that kills a target or takes them out of combat completely in one shot (e.g. imprisonment).

Likewise, if you can rationalize something in-game, then I wouldn't call it metagame-ish. Divine spellcasters draw their power from their connection with their god - sever the connection, and they've lost the majority of their power. It makes sense from an in-game and meta-game standpoint.

Just don't make the spell last very long (1 round/level seems appropriate), make sure a saving throw can negate it and its subject to spell resistance, and have it be of such a high level that preparing or learning is a considerable investment, and I'd call it balanced.

Monte Cook wrote (in the Book of Eldritch Might) the chains of antimagic spell, which wrap a character in chains and not only expressly leaves the character helpless, but also affected as though in their own personal antimagic field. That's a spell that affects the basic class features of all spellcasters - I'd hardly call it meta-gamish if it only affected arcane spellcasters instead of all of them.

In other words, the distinction between something that "happens to have the outcome" of blocking a class's primary abilities, and a spell specifically designed to do just that, seems completely arbitrary to me.


How about casting Modify Memory and making the cleric forget how to pray for spells?


There is a Monster in the Libris Mortis which can create this effect.


Alzrius wrote:

I could swear I recently saw a spell designed to cut a divine spellcaster off from their deity, thereby depriving them of their spellcasting ability.

Unfortunately, I can't find it now. I'm fairly confident that it was in a third-party supplement written for Pathfinder, but there's a chance it may have been 3.5.

Anyone know of anything like this?

In our Book of Divine Magic there is the 9th level cleric spell excommunication, which does just that, but it has to be cast by someone of the same faith as the target - so not really a good combat spell.


I would think that if anyone is capable of permanently severing a cleric from his/her god, that person would be very swiftly targeted by divine agents seeking retribution for such an abhorrent act. If you break that kind of connection, you're going to get noticed.

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