Well my GM is considering making an epic game, 60 levels (yes the calculated the xp its insane) but anyway. I thought of playing a Draconic bloodline sorcerer and we had an idea for a Silver.
My level break up is as the following: 20 Sorcerer/10 DragonDisiciple (probably mixed) then 20 Paladin and 10 Holy Vindicator.
Now if i am gonna play a LG, honorable Sorcerer I came upon a challenge... spells. Normally I would just look at the dragons themselves have but this didn't help much since bascially all Silver Dragon spells are Divine. If i am gonna play him true to his bloodline I didn't wanna go for spells that would go against an honorable nature.
I tried referencing Pathfinder Chronicles - Dragons Revisited book about Silver dragons it said
"While the school of abjuration encompasses most of these kinds of spells, silvers rarely focus their learning specifically on that school, instead incorporating transmutation, conjuration, and even divination spells into their repertoire—whatever can increase their effectiveness in battle."
So I thought I would stick to those schools, maybe some frost spells.. but what other types of spells would you think would be acceptable? Like it seems illusion and necromancy would be off limits, saddly taking away farely useful spells. Any suggestions?
Check these pages for sorcerer spell selection:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/ogreslab/sorcerer-spell- selection
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/ogreslab/sorcerer-spell- selection/rev-ii-in-development
Check these pages for sorcerer spell selection:
Sorcerer spell selection
Dito
Clickified
ClickifiedCheck these pages for sorcerer spell selection:
Sorcerer spell selection
Dito
Thank you.
Drop holy vindicator, and go for eldritch knight.-
Wow....60 levels is alot.....and since you didn't state core only...
Sorcerer12/Dragon Disciple8/Oracle20/Mystic Theurge10/Paladin10
This gives you all the divine spells you could possibly want AND all the arcane spells. Both are spontaneous and based off of Charisma. Mystic Theurge lets you trade between the spell slots giving you flexibility, and since many spells are on both lists it eases the pain of choosing spells a bit.
Sorcerer12+DD8=Half-Dragon Template..so no reason to take 30 levels of the draconic line, you won't get many perks for that.
If you are a human, take the Eclectic Feat and choose Oracle, that will give you 12 extra sorcerer spells and 16 extra oracle spells. Opening up so many options you won't know what to do with yourself.
In thinking about it...Mystic Theurge does become a useful class if you have more than 30 levels to play with...otherwise it really is sub-par. But in a game where you have extra levels to throw around, the ability to trade around spells becomes handy.
If you don't like that large of a Mystic Theurge investment:
Sorcerer12/DD8/Oracle20/Paladin18/Mystic Theurge2 (Paladin/Sorcerer...maxes both of their spells to 20)
In retrospect...I like the latter build better, since Mystic Theurge still is kinda suck-tastic compared to 8 more levels of Pally. Go with the last one LOL
I was wondering more what type of spells you think would be fitting from this. Also id rather max out most of my classes. I have the spell lists i just thought there might be some spells from the arcane list that seemed fitting.
Drop holy vindicator, and go for eldritch knight.-
Definitely.
Regarding the spells:
Avoid anything with the Evil subtype. Most Necromancy is right out, but there are some non-evil effects there that you might consider. I'd also avoid Enchantment (because, you know, mind control isn't exactly the staple for good, honorable people) and Illusions (Paladin code and trickery don't mix well).
Other than that, sky's the limit.
Drop holy vindicator, and go for eldritch knight.-Definitely.
Whats with all the hostility against the vindicator.. my 20 Sor and 10 DragonDis buff my arcane while my paladin 20 and Vind 10 buff my pally especially divine and channel. The normal Eldritch Knight.. is alright but it just seems Vindicator would be more fitting and useful especially on a melee side.
Dont get me wrong, vindicator Rocks. But i would lean my char to the arcane.- If your group is using epic level spell progression, you may toss some wicked spells with a lot of metamagic. Also, the capstone ability of the EK is pretty good, yet the HV carries some heavy punch too, yet the bleeding bonus and the shield of the vindicator.- yet, you must remember that in order to use such skill you must carry a shield that usually busts spellcasting.- (Not a big issue at such high lvls, yet i think that the HV is a better prestige for clerics going martial, than to paladins).- With this build i would rather go with a 2hander spell storing weapon, than blade and board.-
Another possible build:
Sorc 12/DD8/pal20/EK10/ - thats 50 lvls, 10 to go. So far we are CL 23 arcane / 20 divine. W/o full a divine spellcasting class, i would not recommend the MT prestige, so either go HV or look around for 3rd party prestiges to fill the gap.
Another possible build:
Sorc 12/DD8/pal20/EK10/ - thats 50 lvls, 10 to go. So far we are CL 23 arcane / 20 divine. W/o full a divine spellcasting class, i would not recommend the MT prestige, so either go HV or look around for 3rd party prestiges to fill the gap.
Well dont forget that every level in DD and Sorc gives me a stronger breath weapon and a higher casting level and stuff like that.
Whats with all the hostility against the vindicator.. my 20 Sor and 10 DragonDis buff my arcane while my paladin 20 and Vind 10 buff my pally especially divine and channel. The normal Eldritch Knight.. is alright but it just seems Vindicator would be more fitting and useful especially on a melee side.Drop holy vindicator, and go for eldritch knight.-Definitely.
Basically, your Arcane spells will be your strongest feature, so anything that adds to them is flat-out better than any other option you can take. EK adds you plenty arcane spellcasting without forfeiting your BAB and HD, so it's pure win for the kind of character you want to have.
Meanwhile, HV has some nice features, but they won't really compare meaningfully to +9 epic caster levels from EK.
If you really want all the HV stuff, why not go Pally 10/HV 10/EK 10 instead of Pally 20/HV 10?
Whats with all the hostility against the vindicator.. my 20 Sor and 10 DragonDis buff my arcane while my paladin 20 and Vind 10 buff my pally especially divine and channel. The normal Eldritch Knight.. is alright but it just seems Vindicator would be more fitting and useful especially on a melee side.Drop holy vindicator, and go for eldritch knight.-Definitely.
Basically, your Arcane spells will be your strongest feature, so anything that adds to them is flat-out better than any other option you can take. EK adds you plenty arcane spellcasting without forfeiting your BAB and HD, so it's pure win for the kind of character you want to have.
Meanwhile, HV has some nice features, but they won't really compare meaningfully to +9 epic caster levels from EK.
If you really want all the HV stuff, why not go Pally 10/HV 10/EK 10 instead of Pally 20/HV 10?
Well when i was looking at holy vindicator i saw their vestitile channel which bascially gives me postive energy breath which I thought would be cool and fitting going with a "Silver Dragon" type approach. I have been considering doing something else than pally but not sure if there is an Orcale that would fit (Wave or Battle perhaps?). I just dont see much to the EK now that the Magus is coming out and effectively replacing it... sure you get spell critical but thats bascially it...
Edit: More or less he will worship Apsu
Edit Edit: If i do orcale i cannot do HV anyway :-/
Yeah, but keep in mind, that EK, algo gives you a (Tiny) access to fighter feats too.- Not that it would change your world, yet, another thing that gets in. if you go EK path. Besides that, yes, as you said the captsone is the only thing that would change your world.-
Also, can you take non PF/AGP clases/PRCs?
I just dont see much to the EK now that the Magus is coming out and effectively replacing it... sure you get spell critical but thats bascially it...
Magus is cool, alright, but it's cool for replacing the vanilla Fighter/Wizard/EK Gish build and that's just it. EK is still your friend if you want to go wild, like, say, build a Paladin/Dragon Sorc Gish.
Well when i was looking at holy vindicator i saw their vestitile channel which bascially gives me postive energy breath which I thought would be cool and fitting going with a "Silver Dragon" type approach.
Cool, but is it really necessary? It's not like an actual silver dragon even has a breath weapon of positive energy, and it's not like you don't have a dragon breath weapon already thanks to Sorc/DD levels.
Edit Edit: If i do orcale i cannot do HV anyway :-/
You can, technically, but only if you choose Healing Mystery and an appropriate Revelation (at which point, I agree, going HV might be a little weird character-wise).
Also, taking Oracle instead of Paladin pushes your overall concept away from the Gish niche that a Pal/Sorc/DD certainly takes, and puts you more in the "multi-spellcaster" niche, at which point taking levels in HV becomes a complete waste.
Most importantly, don't let it all discourage you too much from doing what you want. Any optimization advice pales in the face of 60th level character, and while giving up HV in favor of EK would certainly be more optimal, it's not like you can't be an utter badass with your current build idea.
Yeah I see what you mean, I was going for a Sorcerer that gets so attuned with his silver ancestory that he starts following their ideals. In such a chase HV or EK would make sense after paladin, not really sure I will dwell on it I guess. Though I must say this advice has strayed far from what I was originally looking for.
Ah...now I understand what you are asking for. I like the concept, and like Amor says..at lvl 60 you will be BAMF even without optimization.
As far as spell selection goes. Don't worry about it. You will be bloated with spells both in terms of castings per day and in terms of spells selected. So pretty much take anything that works off of a CL check and serves a good purpose and you will be fine.
Is your GM going to be crafting the monsters using character levels? ...because an Anti-Paladin20/Fighter20 Balor scares the beejeezus outta me lol
You know...in thinking about this more. The game really breaks down after level 30, because there is no way AC can keep up with BAB (it does it poorly up to level 30 as it stands) but imagine a BAB +60, that means you'd need an AC in the 90s to not get hit regularly. That is nuts lol
I´ve DMed a few epic adventures using 3rd edition rules, and even if they where broken, certanly can be used as a guideline, instead of just stacking saves, BAB and items.-
Ps. Yeah, game is Awfully broken beyond lvl 30
Ah...now I understand what you are asking for. I like the concept, and like Amor says..at lvl 60 you will be BAMF even without optimization.
and like Amor says
Amor
...I get my nick being misspelled regularly, but this, this is something new.
No hard feelings, though. I'm just amused.
You know...in thinking about this more. The game really breaks down after level 30, because there is no way AC can keep up with BAB (it does it poorly up to level 30 as it stands) but imagine a BAB +60, that means you'd need an AC in the 90s to not get hit regularly. That is nuts lol
This is just a theory, really, but hopefully the problem will be somewhat less pronounced in PF than it was in D&D, as PF characters have a bit more HP and a bit smaller damage dealing potential (or so I hear, I wasn't much of a D&D player.
an Anti-Paladin20/Fighter20 Balor
Personally, I'd go with Anti-Paladin20/Bard20 for a Balor. He'd be, like, the evil god of Heavy Metal, complete with face-melting guitar solos.
I was actually thinking about the two-weapon fighter variant for his sword and whip...but I am getting behind the Anti-Paladin/Arcane Duelist Bard Balor
PS - sorry for the threadjack
PPS - sorry about the nick....I decided to abbreviate and with all those tendrils...I just thought to myself that you are a very amorous individual...amorous amorangias....or just amor for short ;)
You know...in thinking about this more. The game really breaks down after level 30, because there is no way AC can keep up with BAB (it does it poorly up to level 30 as it stands) but imagine a BAB +60, that means you'd need an AC in the 90s to not get hit regularly. That is nuts lol
Which is why I don't like the advice given in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook; I think the ELH guys had it right by standardizing BAB and saves after level 20. In my campaign, the level 60 fighter has a +40 BAB, since I'm using ELH progression, not the ridiculous "follow the same progression" stuff, which breaks down somewhere in the 30s. So yeah, he's auto-hitting with his first hit most of the time. Unless he power attacks, then maybe not so much.
Of course, he's also getting attacked by opponents who are equally epic. And since creatures typically have more HD than PCs, even a creature with a Clerical progression is standing toe-to-toe with him if it's got at least 60 HD. And if it's an outsider, it's at +60. Besides, it's not the attacks you have to watch out for, it's the specialattacks.
Anyways, I don't agree that the game is broken by definition after level 30. It *can* be broken, but it doesn't *have* to be broken.
20 Monk/20 Sorc/10 Dragon Disciple/10 paladin would be sweet.
You'd be immune to everything.
All Good saves + Divine grace would help with caveats to that rule.
Hell, you could even Zen archer monk and replace DD with arcane archer.
You could spell imbue arrows fired at flurry of blows rate of fire and do unarmed damage per arrow while smiting...<passes out>.
Ouch.
And you just need good scores on all abilities!!
No, really, is a good idea, yet ill tweak Sorc and DD to get lvl 20 and most of it, doing that you can hit 18/19 paladin,. and if you sacrifice the capstone of the bloodline, you get the paladin capstone.-