Okay, if gold dragon wyrmling is targeted by a baleful polymorph and fails the fort save and makes the will save, what statistics would the 1HD flying squirrel have?
I dunno. Maybe take the stats for a rat, give it a climb speed and a glide ability. And remove any poison/disease abilities.
Baleful Polymorph
School transmutation (polymorph); Level druid 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates, Will partial, see text; Spell Resistance: yes
As beast shape III, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD. If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.
If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability) and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own.
-Ok, so you have, physically, a Neutral flying squirrel....
It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points).
....With a +4 base attack bonus and around 50 hp. Thats not exactly clear to me whether the New HP are based on the new con or the old con. Either way, its a nasty shock if some poor hawk tries to pick it up.
It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.
Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph, and as long as baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to baleful polymorph, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
The wyrmling made it's Will save, so even though it now has the shape of a flying squirrel, couldn't it still use it's breath weapon and cast spells?
I think so, but wanted to see what others thought.
whoops... didn't notice that it made its will save
As beast shape III, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD. If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
....
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
I would say that the ability to breathe fire is based on a dragons anatomy, but a more spiritually and less biologically inclined dm might disagree.
You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
Fly Speed: A dragon's fly speed increases as indicated, according to its size.: gone, he no longer has wings.
Bite: This is a primary attack that deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon's Strength bonus (even though it has more than one attack). A dragon's bite attack has reach as if the creature were one size category larger (+10 feet for Colossal dragons). :Gone, he no longer has teeth.
Claws: These primary attacks deal the indicated damage plus the dragon's Strength bonus.: Gone: replaced with the squirrels teeny tiny cloaws.
Wings: The dragon can slam foes with its wings, even when flying. Wing attacks are secondary attacks that deal the indicated damage plus 1/2 the dragon's Strength bonus: gone. But he now glides.
Tail Slap: The dragon can slap one foe each round with its tail. A tail slap is a secondary attack that deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon's Strength bonus (this is an exception to the normal secondary attack rules).: Gone
Crush (Ex): A flying or jumping Huge or larger dragon can land on foes as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon. A crush attack affects as many creatures as fit in the dragon's space. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon's breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, it must succeed at a combat maneuver check as normal. Pinned foes take damage from the crush each round if they don't escape. A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon's Strength bonus.: Gone.. not hat he had it.
Tail Sweep (Ex): This allows a Gargantuan or larger dragon to sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 30 feet (or 40 feet for a Colossal dragon), extending from an intersection on the edge of the dragon's space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are four or more size categories smaller than the dragon. A tail sweep automatically deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon's Strength bonus (round down). Affected creatures can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage (DC equal to that of the dragon's breath weapon). Gone, based on tail.
Breath Weapon (Su): Using a breath weapon is a standard action. A dragon can use its breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds, even if it possesses more than one breath weapon. A breath weapon always starts at an intersection adjacent to the dragon and extends in a direction of the dragon's choice. Breath weapons come in two shapes, lines and cones, whose areas vary with the dragon's size. If a breath weapon deals damage, those caught in the area can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage. The save DC against a breath weapon is 10 + 1/2 dragon's HD + dragon's Con modifier. Saves against various breath weapons use the same DC; the type of saving throw is noted in the variety descriptions. A dragon can use its breath weapon when it is grappling or being grappled.: Gone, but admitedly somewhat open to DM's call.
Additional Dragon Rules
Dragon Senses (Ex): Dragons have have darkvision 120 ft. and blindsense 60 ft. They see four times as well as a human in dim light and twice as well in normal light. - Keen senses are specifically called out as something that doesn't transfer.
Frightful Presence (Ex): A dragon's frightful presence has a range equal to 30 feet × the dragon's age category, but otherwise functions as detailed in the Universal Monster Rules.- I would rule gone. A dragon is scary because its a giant fire breathing lizard that can swallow you alive in one gulp. The cute fuzzy critter is no longer scary.
Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its specific description. Its caster level depends on its age, as shown for each type: If the wyrm HAD any it would keep these.
Spell-Like Abilities: A dragon's caster level for its spell-like abilities is equal to its total Hit Dice.: these it would keep if it had any. it apparently does not.
Damage Reduction: Dragons gain damage reduction as they age, as indicated on each dragon's specific entry. Their natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.: This is probably physical.
Immunities (Ex): Every dragon is immune to sleep and paralysis. In addition, a dragon is immune to one or two additional forms of attack no matter what its age, as given in its description.- I would say it keeps these. Being part elemental is part of a dragons soul.
Spell Resistance (Ex): As dragons grow older, they become more resistant to spells and spell-like abilities, as indicated in the dragon descriptions. A dragon's SR is equal to 11 + its CR. - I would say it keeps this as well, its part of the creatures soul.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I don't think so, at least as far as breath weapons go.
The general polymorph rules still apply, which state:
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form."
Failing the second save on baleful polymorph removes your ability to use extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities that don't depend on your original form, basically, you forget how to use your class abilities.
A polymorphed dragon who succeeds it's Will save should still be able to cast spells, so long as it can perform the somatic and verbal components for those spells. What that entails for a dragon and whether or not it can do so as a squirrel is up to the GM.
Okay, if gold dragon wyrmling is targeted by a baleful polymorph and fails the fort save and makes the will save, what statistics would the 1HD flying squirrel have?
The statistics of a flying squirrel are not important. The wyrmling does not become a 1 HD animal or get its abilities. You make the adjustments from beast shape an add them to the wyrmlings existing abilities.
Since the spell is being discussed:
What will reverse a Baleful Polymorph? Another polymorph spell? Dispel Magic? It's duration is permanent, while many other ones (Beast Shape, etc.) are not.
I suppose you could kill 'em, reincarnate them, and hope for the best...
Just curious--I apologize if I'm derailing the thread. :)
Okay, if gold dragon wyrmling is targeted by a baleful polymorph and fails the fort save and makes the will save, what statistics would the 1HD flying squirrel have?
Please post the stat block for a normal flying squirrel, and I (or someone else) will happily produce the stat block for Baleful Polymorphing a gold wyrmling into one.
Since the spell is being discussed:
What will reverse a Baleful Polymorph? Another polymorph spell? Dispel Magic? It's duration is permanent, while many other ones (Beast Shape, etc.) are not.
I suppose you could kill 'em, reincarnate them, and hope for the best...
Just curious--I apologize if I'm derailing the thread. :)
A permanent spell can be dispelled with dispel magic, or break enchantment and similar spells that undo magic. As opposed by instantaneous spells which can not be dispelled.
What will reverse a Baleful Polymorph? Another polymorph spell? Dispel Magic? It's duration is permanent, while many other ones (Beast Shape, etc.) are not.
Dispel Magic should work as normal (because the spell description doesn't state otherwise), as will Remove Curse or Break Enchantment (since it's considered a "curse"). The spell blocks any other polymorph spell or shapechange effect from working until Baleful Polymorph is dispelled.
What will reverse a Baleful Polymorph? Another polymorph spell? Dispel Magic? It's duration is permanent, while many other ones (Beast Shape, etc.) are not.Dispel Magic should work as normal (because the spell description doesn't state otherwise), as will Remove Curse or Break Enchantment (since it's considered a "curse"). The spell blocks any other polymorph spell or shapechange effect from working until Baleful Polymorph is dispelled.
It only block the polymorph spells and shapechange effects used by the target to fail, otherwise. Not sure it falls under the dominion of curses by the rules, it could be I suppose.. but I think an effect dispelable by remove curse will have it noted in the description of the effect.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Since the spell is being discussed:
What will reverse a Baleful Polymorph? Another polymorph spell? Dispel Magic? It's duration is permanent, while many other ones (Beast Shape, etc.) are not.
I suppose you could kill 'em, reincarnate them, and hope for the best...
Just curious--I apologize if I'm derailing the thread. :)
The target can't use polymorph spells for the duration of baleful polymorph, but since it's a continuous magical effect dispel magic should work.
You can also use break enchantment, as it removes "enchantments, transmutations, and curses".
There's also a spell in the APG called true form, basically it's a mass "everybody turn back to normal, whether you want to or not" spell. It specifically mentions removing the effects of baleful polymorph.
Edit: Somewhat double ninja'd
It only block the polymorph spells and shapechange effects used by the target to fail, otherwise.
It depends on how you read this text:
Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph, and as long as baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form.
I read "the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form" as meaning that, whereas normally the target chooses whether a new polymorph effect replaces an old one, baleful polymorph prevents the target from choosing any other effect.
Your reading also fits the words of the description but I think mine is the correct one.Not sure it falls under the dominion of curses by the rules, it could be I suppose.. but I think an effect dispelable by remove curse will have it noted in the description of the effect.
Baleful Polymorph is actually listed as a curse under the section of the rules describing curses. I agree it should have shown up in the spell description as well.
Baleful Polymorph is actually listed as a curse under the section of the rules describing curses. I agree it should have shown up in the spell description as well.
There is a curse named baleful polymorph curse and functions similarly, but that does not mean that spell is a curse. There is the important detail in the curse that it only changes the target to a lizard, signifying that it is a curse based on the effect of the spell, and not the spell in general.
Any chance somebody will post the stats for a flying squirrel so we can answer the OP?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Here's my quick and dirty take on a flying squirrel (basically, I took a rat, dropped the swim speed, switched it's racial skill bonus to Climb, and gave it a glide ability mostly cribbed from the spell glide
I'd also houserule beast shape I+ to give you that glide ability, with a limit on distance glided per round equal to your max fly speed.
Flying Squirrel CR 1/4
XP 100
N Tiny animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +1
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Defense
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AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +2 size)
hp 4 (1d8)
Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 15 ft., climb 15 ft.
Melee bite +4 (1d3–4)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
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Statistics
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Str 2, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 6 (10 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Climb +14, Stealth +14; Racial Modifiers +4 Climb
SQ Glide
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Ecology
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Environment any temperate
Organization solitary, pair, nest (3–12)
Treasure none
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Special Abilities
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Glide (Ex) A flying squirrel takes no damage from falls (as per the spell feather fall). In addition, it can travel 10 feet horizontally for every 5 feet it falls. The flying squirrel cannot gain height with this ability, nor can it turn more than 45 degrees each round it glides. If subjected to a strong wind or any other effect that causes it to rise, the flying squirrel can take advantage of it to increase the distance it can glide.
I would raise the Squirrel Cha to 20, but that´s because i love squirrels xD
Here's my take. Feel free to point out errors.
Gold Wyrmling (with flying squirrel body)
LG Tiny dragon (fire)
Init +4, Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +15
AC 17, touch 16 (+4 Dex, +1 natural, +2 size)
hp 68 (8d12+16)
Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +10
Immune fire
Weaknesses vulnerability to cold
Speed 15 ft., climb 15 ft.
Melee bite +12 (1d3+2)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Str 15, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
Base Atk +8; CMB +10; CMD 22 (26 vs. trip)
Feats Alertness, Iron Will, Power Attack, Vital Strike
Skills Diplomacy +13, Fly +17, Heal +13, Knowledge (local) +13, Perception +15, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +13, Swim +12
Here's my take. Feel free to point out errors.
Gold Wyrmling (with flying squirrel body)
LG Tiny dragon (fire)
Init +4, Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +15
AC 17, touch 16 (+4 Dex, +1 natural, +2 size)
hp 68 (8d12+16)
Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +10
Immune fire
Weaknesses vulnerability to cold
Speed 15 ft., climb 15 ft.
Melee bite +12 (1d3+2)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Str 15, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
Base Atk +8; CMB +10; CMD 22 (26 vs. trip)
Feats Alertness, Iron Will, Power Attack, Vital Strike
Skills Diplomacy +13, Fly +17, Heal +13, Knowledge (local) +13, Perception +15, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +13, Swim +12
I have just a few corrections:
- Init: +4 due to dex change- To hit: +10 due to str change
- CMB: +7 due to str and size changes.
- CMD: 21 (25 trip) due to size change)
- I would personally think that immunity to fire and weakness to could is abilities based on the old form, so they should be removed, but that might be a matter of discussion.
Otherwise it looks good.
Thank you - looks good and makes sense.
I think that I would probably link the immunity to fire and the breath weapon. If he keeps one he keeps the other.
Maybe I just like the idea of a squirrel breathing a cone of fiery death too much thou.....
On a slightly different note - what CR would you attach to AvalonXQ's beautifully done monster?
Thank you - looks good and makes sense.
I think that I would probably link the immunity to fire and the breath weapon. If he keeps one he keeps the other.
Maybe I just like the idea of a squirrel breathing a cone of fiery death too much thou.....
On a slightly different note - what CR would you attach to AvalonXQ's beautifully done monster?
With the HD and base attack intact I'd keep the CR as the wyrmling if you decide to ad hoc the fire breath into it or maybe drop it by 1 without the breath. This is just off the fly, without going through the monster creation rules.
As a thought, you may wish to leave it at the wyrmling CR based on the fact that changing the CR would change the xp award for defeating a subject of Baneful Polymorph after it's been transformed.
On HaraldKlak's corrections, I think my numbers are right. Here's my math:
+8 BAB +2 str +2 size = +12 melee attack
+8 BAB +4 dex -2 size = +10 CMB (remember, tiny uses dex)
10 base +8 BAB +4 dex +2 str -2 size = 22 CMB (26 trip)
My understanding is that polymorph spells do not change type or subtype, so the immunity/weakness based on the fire subtype stays. Then again, is immunity to sleep/paralysis based on dragon type? Now I'm unsure.
On HaraldKlak's corrections, I think my numbers are right. Here's my math:
+8 BAB +2 str +2 size = +12 melee attack
+8 BAB +4 dex -2 size = +10 CMB (remember, tiny uses dex)
10 base +8 BAB +4 dex +2 str -2 size = 22 CMB (26 trip)My understanding is that polymorph spells do not change type or subtype, so the immunity/weakness based on the fire subtype stays. Then again, is immunity to sleep/paralysis based on dragon type? Now I'm unsure.
Right you are:) I had got it into my head that changing to tiny with BS2 gave -4 str (and even then I forgot the size bonus to hit...).
On HaraldKlak's corrections, I think my numbers are right. Here's my math:
+8 BAB +2 str +2 size = +12 melee attack
+8 BAB +4 dex -2 size = +10 CMB (remember, tiny uses dex)
10 base +8 BAB +4 dex +2 str -2 size = 22 CMB (26 trip)My understanding is that polymorph spells do not change type or subtype, so the immunity/weakness based on the fire subtype stays. Then again, is immunity to sleep/paralysis based on dragon type? Now I'm unsure.
Traits: A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
* Darkvision 60 feet and low-light vision.
* Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
* Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
* Proficient with no armor.
* Dragons breathe, eat, and sleep.
My belief is that because magical sleep spells call for a will save, a dragon's immunity to sleep is mental and would in this case transfer over to our new squirrel friend here. I would also say that the paralysis immunity transfers as well since it retained its dragon-type however I could understand other GMs disagreeing on this point.
Hope this helps!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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If you polymorph yourself into a dragon, you gain (among other things) elemental resistance/immunity, a weakness to the opposite element, and a breath weapons.
That says to me all those are based on what shape you're taking, rather than any sort of internal power, so I'd remove them from the polymorphed wyrmling/squirrel.
On the other hand, polymorphing yourself into a dragon does NOT give you immunity to sleep/paralysis, so those I'd probably keep regardless of the wyrmling's form.