We have a party in Rivers Run Red, consisting of a Fighter using the old Campaign Setting firearms rules, a Paladin, a Blaster sorcerer, a Druid, and a Wizard. We're currently level six. We hit a hex that was full of Will-o-Wisps. After the first couple of encounters, the Wizard just started preparing Resist Energy and trivializing them, up to and including an encounter with five Will-O-Wisps at once, who between them dealt us a total of five damage over the entire party. Then there's this tower on the other side of a lake that we really shouldn't have had the resources to cross if not for having the druid take water breathing and getting creative with how to swim over there.
...Now that I think about it, I get this feeling that this was an elaborate warning and we're about to get hit by something absurdly scary for having trivialized it. Without going into spoilers, is level six a good level to have gotten to this tower at, or are we about to get facestomped by something way out of our league?
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We have a party in Rivers Run Red, consisting of a Fighter using the old Campaign Setting firearms rules, a Paladin, a Blaster sorcerer, a Druid, and a Wizard. We're currently level six. We hit a hex that was full of Will-o-Wisps. After the first couple of encounters, the Wizard just started preparing Resist Energy and trivializing them, up to and including an encounter with five Will-O-Wisps at once, who between them dealt us a total of five damage over the entire party. Then there's this tower on the other side of a lake that we really shouldn't have had the resources to cross if not for having the druid take water breathing and getting creative with how to swim over there.
...Now that I think about it, I get this feeling that this was an elaborate warning and we're about to get hit by something absurdly scary for having trivialized it. Without going into spoilers, is level six a good level to have gotten to this tower at, or are we about to get facestomped by something way out of our league?
It boggles my mind how anybody level six can defeat a single will-o-wisp. It’s not just about the resist energy, it’s how the @!#?@ do you hit it with its AC so high? Even then, the resist spells only can do so much…that is some high damage vs. touch AC, and if your wizard is popping all his/her spells on resists, what is left for magic missiles? And the fact that they’re immune to so many spells and things and can just turn invisible and run at the first hint things aren’t going so hot for them…it just doesn’t make sense to me.
EDIT: Just took another look at your party set-up and can see where the magic missiles are coming from. Even so, the rest of it still boggles my mind. But to the point of your post. Without going into spoilers, the Candlemere tower as written is appropriate to the rest of the southern Greenbelt with regards to encounter level. Not accounting for world reactions to player actions outside of “normal” exploration and whatnot you should be fine. As a guess. Something to be aware of, though…a lot of GMs have expanded this specific encounter. So…beware. ;)
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It's a CR 6 enemy with only a 26 AC... our paladin post-haste was hitting it at a 12 when he was flanking alongside the Druid. It also helped that the druid rolled like, six or seven critical threats in the course of the night. Between the blaster and the wizard's Wand of Magic Missle, we made it out alright, and the Wizard, being a Diviner, had See Invisibility on as well.
Our GM also made a ruling that based on the part of the RAW where as a full round action you can touch 6 people at once, that as a full round action you can poke six guys with any spell that says 'touch.' With Resist Energy and that particular ruling we were able to get away with one casting (Though the wizard is packing two or three). I am cautiously fearful of our GM having expanded the encounter because the GM loves making us suffer, but I'm glad to hear that it can't possibly be any worse than a metric crap-ton of Will-O-Wisps.
I've got to say - even with everything else you've got going on there, I still don't see how you'd kill a will-o-wisp. It's constantly invisible and flies. It'll auto-hit anyone in your party and can just fly away without AoOs since you can't see it (except for the diviner). Even if the Paladin hits on a 12 (with flanking), he still has to pass the 50% concealment which means he's hitting about once every 4 rounds. Besides, the will-o-wisps aren't stupid. If they realize they aren't hurting you, they can just go away and completely heal all their wounds and wait for your spells to run out.
Considering that 5 will-o-wisps is a CR 11 encounter and could have easily destroyed the party, it doesn't sound like your DM likes to "make you suffer".
Given that only the capstone encounters get up to even CR 9, I doubt you'll face any significant threats for the rest of the book.
...in light of that fact, I suppose a better term would be 'likes adding stuff for the sake of because it's cool/interesting.' He's been hinting we'll be seeing a chaos beast somewhere in this AP. Now that you mention it, I'm curious myself as to why the wisps didn't flee when they realized their attacks were useless. (Not that we wouldn't have pursued--paladin and whatnot).
Guess I should chalk it up to either unusually stupid will-o-wisps, a very good string of rolls, or both. Either way, I take it that if we can handle that effectively then we're considered ready for the boss inside as well. Thanks.
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Will'o wisps have become a joke to my group. Granted, they are level 7 now, but they could have done this at level 6, even if I ignore one of them (as there are 5 characters).
Tristan - Elf Ranger
Storn - Half-Orc Zen Archer
Leon - Human Summoner (with high UMD)
Jarendlon - Elf Druid
Now yes, the will'o wisp AC is 26, and quite high. Still, by this point the two ranged characters (Tristan and Storn) have a very good attack bonus.
Tristan: +6 (BAB) +5 (DEX) +1 (MAGIC) -2 (DEADLY AIM)
Total: +10/+5 (1d8+6) (1 from str, 4 from deadly aim, 1 from magic)
Storn: +4 (BAB) +6 (WIS) +1 (WEAPON FOCUS) +1 (MAGIC) -2 (DEADLY AIM)
Total: +10/+10/+5; +10/+10/+10/+5 with ki point (1d8+11) (2 from str, 2 from weapon spec, 2 from noble scion feat, 1 from magic, 4 from deadly aim)
Ever since the first one, the group has always made sure Tristan and Storn had potions of see invisibility handy. At only 300 GP a pop (although down to 150 GP now that Bokken is a cohort, but that's later) it's not too shabby, and worth the whole not dying.
Jarendlon preps a couple resist energies and throws them up on most everyone before fighting these guys. They last a long time, 10 min/level, and an hour to clear an area of will o wisps is pretty awesome.
So, with resist electricity 10, the will o wisps really can't do much. They average 9 damage a blast. Sometimes they'll get over yes, but never that much. Storn and Tristan can hit them pretty often. Based on their attack bonuses, we'll assume Tristan hits once every two rounds, and Storn hits three times every two rounds (if he uses a ki point, only twice if he doesn't).
Just from the two of them, that's an average of 46 damage from Storn (3 arrows) and 10 damage from Tristan for a total of 56. That, alone, kills one will'o wisp. In a single round.
Now, granted, a lot could go wrong. What if they forgot resist energy, or don't have see invis? Well, the two ranged guys can still ready actions to fire as soon as they pop up. The group will take a few more hits, but as long as everyone stays moving, the will'o wisp has to move before shocking, thus revealing itself for a bit longer. It could move, wait until its next turn, then shock and vanish, but that gives the group more time to heal and buff. Also, Leon keeps a wand of magic missile on him (CL 3) that they found. Yes, it'll run out eventually, but he can UMD it on a 3 or higher right now (thanks to a Circlet of Persuasion) and an extra 7 damage guaranteed a round helps a lot.
The first will'o wisp really hurt. But having two very good ranged characters and spells makes the little abberations a joke now.
Now, based on hearing tales from other groups, I know what a *lot* of GMs probably do wrong. They let the will o wisp stay invisible while attacking. Unfortunately, that is not how they are supposed to work. They can become 'invisible', as per the spell. Not greater invisible. This means that attacking anyone breaks their invisibility, and they have to spend a move action to re-invisible. :)
Anyhow, just wanted to chime in to attest that these CR 6 guys are not at all deadly once the party is around that level.
I agree on the fact that See Invis and Resist Energy helps a great deal, without these though... Autch!
Even with planning...
° Take 5 will-o-wisps that hover towards an unsuspecting victim.
° Combo attack of 5*2d8 should average on 40 damage in a single round.
° PC stays put as not to risk AOO? => Next round they combo attack after which they vanish with their move action
° PC runs (succesfully) => Turn invisible, start moving (standard > move action)
° Lather, rinse, repeat.
Oh, and if one of the wisps get damaged too much, it will obviously retreat and lick its wounds.. INT 15 should be enough to go for hit-and-run-tactics, don't you think?
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My players will have the scare of a life when they first encounter them... Keeping them in the dark adds to the lethality of the Stolen Lands, i believe.
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And if you want to make the encounter harder (as a DM), simply change "invisibility" to "greater invisibility" ;)
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Add a few templates, or just make them "variants" (I did both). Change the electricity damage to disintegration damage (2d8, no save, 10' melee touch instead of 5'), a little improvement to the fear aura, a 10' aura (say, vacuum) ... Candlemere can get a LOT nastier without a lot of effort. ^_^
Our GM also made a ruling that based on the part of the RAW where as a full round action you can touch 6 people at once, that as a full round action you can poke six guys with any spell that says 'touch.' With Resist Energy and that particular ruling we were able to get away with one casting (Though the wizard is packing two or three). I am cautiously fearful of our GM having expanded the encounter because the GM loves making us suffer, but I'm glad to hear that it can't possibly be any worse than a metric crap-ton of Will-O-Wisps.
Lemme get this straight... your GM allows 6 people to be affected by Resist Energy with each casting?
I had to tell my group sorry, Will-O-Wisps are immune to poison because I said so. Not sure why they don't have poison immunity, with their completely alien body, but with their strength of 3 they really need it. Otherwise, 1 dose of poison will likely take them out.
Our GM also made a ruling that based on the part of the RAW where as a full round action you can touch 6 people at once, that as a full round action you can poke six guys with any spell that says 'touch.' With Resist Energy and that particular ruling we were able to get away with one casting (Though the wizard is packing two or three). I am cautiously fearful of our GM having expanded the encounter because the GM loves making us suffer, but I'm glad to hear that it can't possibly be any worse than a metric crap-ton of Will-O-Wisps.
Lemme get this straight... your GM allows 6 people to be affected by Resist Energy with each casting?
Yeup. It's based on this passage:
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it.
A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit
just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical
hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on
a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to
touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing
targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell
must be touched in the same round that you finish
casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets
over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full round
action.
He used this to say it is the case.
It's neat for touch buffs, but his casters get it too.
I noticed that as well. I'm pretty sure he's houseruling it, because he does it too. Under the RAW, there's only three spells that say 'creatures touched,' water breathing, shadow walk, and chill touch IIRC.
I always say, "as long as everyone is having fun, you're doing it right".
It's your game - have fun with it, BUT, if you start to wonder why some encounters are too easy...
Mmn. I was mostly worried we were going to be walking into something else that was EL 11 that wasn't solved for x (as I call winning encounters) with a simple Resist Energy. Apparently that's not so much going to happen, which means we should be okay if we came this far. Just to be safe I'll be keeping my scrolls of 'Piece of Paper with Explosive Runes On Them' ready.
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Will-o'-wisps only use their electric shock ability under extreme duress, preferring to let other creatures or hazards claim their victims while they float nearby and feast.
Will o' wisps tend to try and AVOID straight up fights. When used properly, they should be luring PC's into natural hazards, the habitats of other dangerous creatues (if they can induce fear bonus points). They have high bluff, stealth and perception so an inventive DM should go nuts with them.
Appearing out of nowhere to randomly attack with electric shocks should not be the way an encounter with a Will O' Wisp takes place.
Hrm. Natural Invisibility (Will o' wisp's invisibility ability) is (Ex).
Does See Invisibility still work?
I ruled no in my games. Will o' wisps get invisibility by becoming clear. See invisibility does not help you see a crystal ball, so it wont help you with this.
On the other hand, their invisibility is because they control their color. Things that affect their color are more effective. Putting them on fire, bags of flour, tanglefoot bags, all affect their ability to go invisible.
edit: its the difference between intent and raw. By raw, I think see invisiblity works.
By RAW it does, though?
I think I may have been unfair to a player. Oops!
The developers cannot be expected to account for every rules interaction that actually takes place; logically, See Invisibility could be argued not to work here, since the will-o-wisp is gaining an invisibility-like effect but not actually casting a spell. See Invisibility wouldn't help you see a clean glass patio door before you walk into it, after all.
So in my opinion, this is a case of 'sometimes being fair means putting the players at a disadvantage'. A will-o-wisp is a pretty boss monster, and logically should have that ability; taking it away and making it a one- or two-trick encounter takes a fun, challenging fight away from the players.
And lastly, under See Invisibility:
It does not reveal creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see.
An argument could be made that the creature is just hard to see, and that the effect is similar in nature to Invisibility only for the purpose of describing the benefits it gives. I seem to recall a similar rules interaction regarding ... perhaps Elven Accuracy and Displacement ... being 'like concealment'.
Will-o'-wisps only use their electric shock ability under extreme duress, preferring to let other creatures or hazards claim their victims while they float nearby and feast.
Will o' wisps tend to try and AVOID straight up fights. When used properly, they should be luring PC's into natural hazards, the habitats of other dangerous creatues (if they can induce fear bonus points). They have high bluff, stealth and perception so an inventive DM should go nuts with them.
Appearing out of nowhere to randomly attack with electric shocks should not be the way an encounter with a Will O' Wisp takes place.
most campaigns i've played in most monsters are hardly ever played out exactly letter per letter. it's not really fair to tell other GM's how to run there monsters cause there doing it wrong by your opinion. i'm sure you've always played monsters exactly as written? i've seen demons thrown around in campaigns like the prime material plane is there natural plane, tarasques that are supposed to be super rare but thrown around in high level campaigns like there just any old high CR monster, mindless zombies that seem to go for a curtain character but there um mindless. it really doesn't matter as long as everyone is having fun. While i believe all of the same monsters should have a general demeanor there's always exceptions to any creature, especially an intelligent one! a whole tribe of kobolds in my kingmaker campaign is actually evolving into a a lawfull neutral tribe, ofc there is a whole back story and reason for this. it's even changing there physical appearance from random chromatic colors. The tribe is all blacks that are lightening to grey as they evolve into Neutral, there leader has silver scales and is lawful good and they worship a slain silver dragon who "SAVED" there clan in a nutshell. it's not to the book but all my players think its pretty dang cool and original and has made allying with them seem right as they help guide this new "race".
my party encountered there 1st will o' wisp at level 3 and defeated. I hinted they were overmatched and an NPC went screaming off into the caravan. They refused to flee and stood there ground. the willow wisp snuck into camp at night and suprised them. Sure it started blasting them and sure it purposely turned visible but that how i wanted it to play out. The willow wisp was over confident, starved from all the bandits the players chased out of the area, insulted by invasion into its territory, and young and inexperienced against adventures, and choose to be vissible to cause fear. most its victims haven't been much to actually put up a fight. Is this how all will o' wisps are gona play out? no. but it was the hardest fought encounter they had in book 1. they all almost died and had to keep healing, using all there AOE spells, a few hero points, many many misses, some lucky 20's, but finally they landed enough damage in a single round to kill it before it could run.
the've fought one more will o' wisp since that and chased it off. They've now labeled the will o' wisp there nemesis because there the only things so far that really put up a fight to them and take them to the brink.
i had a hard time figuring how there natural invisibility even works and had to hand wave a few things. since they turn natural invisible this doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity correct? but if they attack since it's treated like invisibility they do turn visible? i had them stay invisible since it was natural but im not exactly sure...
Ever since the first one, the group has always made sure Tristan and Storn had potions of see invisibility handy. At only 300 GP a pop (although down to 150 GP now that Bokken is a cohort, but that's later) it's not too shabby, and worth the whole not dying.
See Invisibility is a personal spell, and personal spells can't be put into potions :-)
My group just hated Bokken, they've been tormenting him for 5 scenarios now.
See Invisibility is a personal spell, and personal spells can't be put into potions :-)
Sorry, this is wrong.
A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Potions vary incredibly in appearance. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures.
and
Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.
So See Invisible is a viable option for a potion.
See Invisibility is a personal spell, and personal spells can't be put into potions :-)Sorry, this is wrong.
A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Potions vary incredibly in appearance. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures.and
Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.So See Invisible is a viable option for a potion.
No, it isn't. "That target one or more creatures" is not the same as "personal". GMG pp 124-125 has charts that specifically shows the potions and oils that can be made from 1st level spells - shield, true strike and see invisibility are not on those charts.
See Invisibility is a personal spell, and personal spells can't be put into potions :-)Sorry, this is wrong.
A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Potions vary incredibly in appearance. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures.and
Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.So See Invisible is a viable option for a potion.
The core rule books say you can not make potion out of spell with range of Personal. It's under magic item creation. I know I missed that too. Seems it should put that under Potion in general. If don't create potions you probably would never look up the rules there and see this limitation.
No limitation to Elixirs though from what I see. But that would be wonderous item and probably cost more.
Here's the text from the PRD under potion creation:
"The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions."
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We have a party in Rivers Run Red, consisting of a Fighter using the old Campaign Setting firearms rules, a Paladin, a Blaster sorcerer, a Druid, and a Wizard. We're currently level six.
Remember that 6 characters increase the effective party level by 1 level, so your party if 5 is effectively strongroom by about 1/2 level than a party of 4 adventurers.
I've got to say - even with everything else you've got going on there, I still don't see how you'd kill a will-o-wisp. It's constantly invisible and flies. It'll auto-hit anyone in your party and can just fly away without AoOs since you can't see it (except for the diviner). Even if the Paladin hits on a 12 (with flanking), he still has to pass the 50% concealment which means he's hitting about once every 4 rounds. Besides, the will-o-wisps aren't stupid. If they realize they aren't hurting you, they can just go away and completely heal all their wounds and wait for your spells to run out.
Faerie fire had taken care of the invisibility, I suppose.
Now, based on hearing tales from other groups, I know what a *lot* of GMs probably do wrong. They let the will o wisp stay invisible while attacking. Unfortunately, that is not how they are supposed to work. They can become 'invisible', as per the spell. Not greater invisible. This means that attacking anyone breaks their invisibility, and they have to spend a move action to re-invisible. :)
Natural Invisibility (Ex) Will-o’-wisps have the ability to extinguish their natural glow as a move action, effectively becoming invisible, as per the spell.
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Their actual bodies are barely visible globes of translucent spongy material 1 foot across and weighing 3 pounds, capable of emitting light from every surface.
It is a exceptional ability, not a spell like ability, and, in particular, not the invisibility spell.
If you look the invisible condition under special abilities in the PRD (here) you will see that there is no mention of a invisible creature returning visible when attacking. That is a part of the invisibility spell.
They glow, but after they stop the glow they are invisible and the invisibility is not broken by attacking.
Seeing the description of the monster in the text it is possible to treat it has a high level of concealment as the text say that the body of the WoW is "translucent" and "barely visible" but that would be a house rule as the description clearly state that they are invisible.
See invisible: "You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible.
Such creatures are visible to you as translucent shapes, allowing you easily to discern the difference between visible, invisible, and ethereal creatures.
The spell does not reveal the method used to obtain invisibility. It does not reveal illusions or enable you to see through opaque objects. It does not reveal creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see."
Again the spell consider the status of the creature, not the means by wick it was achieved.
As it is not "hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see" see invisibility should work.
Again it is possible to rule that it is a form of concealment, like a water elemental hiding in water, but it is not what the creature description say.
My players hated the wisps even tho they cast see invisibility and resist energy. The wisp would attack see that they are protect then immediately run away. Then come back when their buffs ran out.
Add a few templates, or just make them "variants" (I did both). Change the electricity damage to disintegration damage (2d8, no save, 10' melee touch instead of 5'), a little improvement to the fear aura, a 10' aura (say, vacuum) ... Candlemere can get a LOT nastier without a lot of effort. ^_^
add 4 levels of oracle dark tapestry mystery for some fun, maybe a high priest with 7 levels as an end boss. Heck that's put candlemere in book 2.
Also wisp don't have to lead the players into danger (they all know not to follow). They can also lead dangerous animals to them.
I remember reading somewhere about adding the swarm template to them, that should be nasty enough for anyone.
Someone created a will-o-wisp inside a shambling mound. I can't remember the thread, but it was a pretty cool idea, as I recall.
EDIT: I found it! It's linked below. The basic idea was to use the Symbiotic Swarm variant shambler, but instead of a centipede swarm, to use a single (or multiple) will-o-wisp. The wisp gets to feed off what the shambler was killing, and the shambler got free power-ups from the wisp's shock attack. I'm not even sure what CR it'd be, but it'd probably be tough.