After going through the summoner handbook by Saph, very good indeed, I made up a summoner, so go and tear it apart.
Background: take half-elf and the extra evolution points. Ability scores are distributed into STR, DEX, CON and CHA, so he can do something in combat, esp., as he never gets access to a large number of spells. And yes, spellcasting might suffer, but I will be taking spells without save or SR. Mainly buffs, only planar binding is a spell with save, and I am not sold, if this is right for PFS or right at all. Wall of stone might work as well.
Idea is to have battlefield control with reach, so taking biped, going large, with reach for the bite and trip. Claws get push, so everything which wants to approach gets an AoO. With a full attack and push by the claws enemies get to 15ft away when being close, provoking if they need to close in.
If needs be take evolution surge and get grab with flight, to take one enemy away and drop him, or greater evolution surge later to get grab and swallow whole.
Evolutions have been chosen for control, and survivability, esp. Improved natural armor.
Half-elf, racial trait: arcane training, dual minded, favored class: summoner (+1/4 evolution points)
STR: 14
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 14
Feats: 1st: Toughness
3rd: Improved initiative
5th: Summoner’s call
7th: Expanded arcane (or at lvl 11 for 2 3rd level spells or teleportation)
9th: Spell focus conjuration
11th: Augment summoning
Skills: focus on spellcraft and UMD, one point in craft to earn money, some in: fly, diplomacy, linguistics, handle animal and knowledge (arcana and planes)
Traits: reactionary and world traveller (diplomacy as class skill)
Equipment to get: rod of extend and reach, mithril buckler, belt of mighty or physical perfection?, headband of alluring charisma
Spells in order to be taken:
0-Level Summoner Spells: detect magic, guidance, mage hand, message, read magic
1st-Level Summoner Spells: rejuvenate eidolon (lesser)*, mage armor, enlarge person, shield, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, mount
2nd-Level Summoner Spells: haste, evolution surge (lesser)* (retrain for resist energy when evolution surge becomes available), barkskin, summon eidolon
3rd-Level Summoner Spells: dimension door, evolution surge (retrain for magic circle or heroism)*, greater invisibility, black tentacles
4th-Level Summoner Spells: evolution surge (greater)*, overland flight, teleport, planar binding, lesser (not sure as save DC won’t be that high)
Eidolon
Lvl 1 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), push
Lvl 2 – claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip
Lvl 3 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, push (claws)
Lvl 4 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, push (claws), improved bite, gore
Lvl 5 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, push (claws), energy attack )(lightning), gore
Lvl 6 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, push (claws) energy attack, gore, improved natural armor
Lvl 7 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, push (claws) energy attack, gore, STR increase
Lvl 8 - large, claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, push (claws), energy attack
Lvl 9 - large, claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, push (claws), energy attack, extra limbs, claws, improved natural armor
Lvl 10 - large, claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, push (claws), energy attack, extra limbs, claws, improved natural armor 2x
Lvl 11 - large, claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), push (claws), energy attack, extra limbs, claws, improved natural armor 2x, immunity fire
Lvl 12 - large, claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), push (claws), energy attack, extra limbs, claws, improved natural armor 2x, DR 5 (good)
Feats: Toughness, Power attack, combat reflexes, lunge, eldritch claws (or does an amulet of mighty fists make the nautral weapons magical, then: blind-fight)
Skills: Perception, sense motive, fly, acrobatics and survival (?)
First ability score increase into CON, then STR
Would like to go with multiple limbs and weapons, but two weapon fighting seems not to be sufficient as feat, and with the feat multiweapon fighting not available in PFS, the minuses just stack up. And a single weapon eats up a number of evolution points: 6 (limbs plus martial weapon proficiency). Also resources are limited, amulet of mighty fists even at 2.5x the cost gives me +1 to 5 attacks.
Equipment to get: amulet of mighty fist, belt of giant strength or physical perfection?
At lvl 10:
Form: Biped
HP: 84 (8d10+40)
AC: 29 (+2 Dex +12 NA -1 size) use mage armor and shield to boost to 37
Initiative: +6
Speed: 30 ft.
Ability Scores: Str 29 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
Saves: Fort +11 Ref +5 Will +7
Feats: Toughness, Power attack, lunge, improved initiative, Multiattack (Bonus)
Evolutions (base): Bite, Limbs (Legs), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (extra, 16-point pool): large, bite, reach (bite), trip, push (claws), energy attack, extra limbs, claws, improved natural armor 2x
Special Abilities: Darkvision, Link, Share Spells, Devotion, Multiattack
Attack Routine: bite +16 (1d8+9+1d6) and 4 claws +16 (1d6+9+1d6)
First things first, stats. If you're using a point buy it looks like a 22 point buy or it was a 20 point buy and you put your racial in a dump stat. The later seems more likely. The big issues with me are the mental stats.
Here's how I'd do the 20 point buy (it may not be perfect because I don't do point buy often)
Str: 11
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 16
Then place your +2 racial into Cha. You want your casting stat to be high so that things will fail their saves because most of the best spells require saves. You can afford to dump wisdom because you're a caster which has good will saves, your a half-elf which gets +2 vs enchantment and as a summoner you're not multiclassing so you can replace the adaptability racial trait with +2 will save.
Moving onto the feats
Toughness: you don't really need this. You already have a few more hit points than most caster AND you have a sturdy pet.
Improved Initiative: Can never go wrong with this one.
Summoner's Call: Not as good as it would seem unless you're going to rely heavily on Summon Eidolon spell because 1 minute ritual time to summon otherwise just isn't going to occur right before combat regularly and if it does, you're better casting buffs.
Expanded Arcana: I like this at 7 as well because 2nd level has a lot of good spells, 3rd level does too.
Augment Summoning: This does not stack with Summoner's Call unless you opt for the dex bonus with Summoner's Call. Still is not terrible.
Skills: When you take the linguistics pick up the bestiary and look at what languages the summonable monsters speak so that you can give them complex orders.
Spells:
0: eh, good enough
1: Mount's not entirely necessary. You want your picks to be something that you'll want to cast every day. Someone with more spells can probably cover this.
2: Where's create pit? It's just one of those spells that's just that good.
3: I'd actually pick up Summon Monster 4, a lot of handy stuff that you can summon, including something that has a constant magic circle evil.
4: Yeah, planar binding's iffy. Takes a lot of downtime for it to be worthwhile. Summon Monster 5 has the powerful Ankylosaurus to stun stuff and some other things.
Eidolon: Seems decent enough
Feats: I suggest that you go through one of the combat manuever trees. Overrun, Bull Rush, and Grapple are good ones. Whether or not it needs to take improved initiative depends on how closely your GM follows the rules as written. Most people say that since the eidolon is a summoned creature, it acts on your turn therefore you taking improved initiative will effectively give it improved initiative for free.
Ah, your right.
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 16
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Ok. This advice is for PFS based character.
A) You have almost no save based spells. So, drop CHA to a minimum, and use the level stat bonuses in CHA as you come to them. It will cut the number of SLAs you have, but PFS usually is 4-5 combats. You probably will never use all 4 SLAs. So, CHA = 12 to start. Suggested stats are Str=14, Dex=14, Con=16, Int=14, Wis=8, CHA=12. The two extra skill points per level spread out in many skills will allow you to make more of the faction missions, thus earning more PA.
B) Spells
0-Level Summoner Spells: detect magic, read magic, mage hand, acid splash, guidance, message
Acid splash is poo'd upon often, but when you need it to finalize killing a troll, you need it. And it gives you something of defiant damage that cannot be take away from you when you are stripped naked and thrown in a cell.
1st-Level Summoner Spells: enlarge person, shield, unfetter, expeditious retreat, reduce person (to fit that large eidolon into smaller areas)
Mage armor you don't take. In PFS, you can buy a wand for 2PA, which you will earn on over half your adventures. So, mage armor, lesser rejuvenate eidolon, cure light wounds, protection from evil, endure elements are your first five wands you pickup that way. Mount is also another wand candidate. When you need it, you will need 5 castings for the party. After those wands, start saving your PA up to 16 so you can get a free raise dead. After 16, start buying wands again.
2nd-Level Summoner Spells: haste, evolution surge (lesser)* (retrain for resist energy when evolution surge becomes available), invisibility, barkskin
Buy the wand of summon eidolon. It is an emergency spell when you lost your partner for the day. Spell slots are too precious.
3rd-Level Summoner Spells: greater invisibility, evolution surge (not retrain)*, dimension door, black tentacles
You don't retrain here, because that gives you more chances to surge. The black tentacles is the first save-or-suck spell affected by low CHA, but is still a sweet spell.
4th-Level Summoner Spells: dismissal, overland flight, teleport
C) The summoner: Either take Ancestral Arms or Heirloom weapon and pick up a pole arm with reach. The lucerne hammer is a nice one. If you enlarge yourself, you are 3d6+1.5xSTR with 20' reach.
D) Summoner Feats: (1) Toughness, (3) Precise Strike, (5) Summoner's Call, (7) Expanded Arcane [glitterdust, protection from arrows], (9) Expanded Arcana again [see invisible, blur or bulls strength], (11) ??
E) Eidolon's Feats: (1) Power Attack, (3) Precise Strike, (6) Toughness, (9) Lunge.
F) Amulet of Mighty Fists, +0 Shocking. It will add about 4d6 of energy damage about the time you can afford it at fifth level. Then, you take the energy attack evolution as a different energy form, just so that if you come up against something with some resistances, some only some of your energy damage is negated. Compare demons and devils to make sure you have your energy types split.
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Black tentacles doesn't rely on DC. There is no save- rather it is a grapple check based on your caster level. So no loss there. It is entirely possible to build a summoner whose spells are not directly offensive high DC dependent spells. Few summoner spells are, but if you wanted to use your slots on them you'd want a high caster stat to match. I went closer to what Elyza proposes with mine, though I think I put a 14 in cha.
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If you are a combat-focused min/maxer, I would be a lot more skeptical of the guide (though it is a great intro). Reach AoOs are a lot more rare when the GM decides to let NPCs fight in place (when possible). Nearly always, trading constant for situational damage results in a bad trade-off.
Keep in mind Summoners who opt for control or defense at the expense of attack (which scales a lot better) will doubly suffer. You already must split your equipment slots between yourself and your Eidolon, so splitting equipment and evolutions again to opt out of damage is always poor in my opinion.
I would consider how powerful you are on the occasional times that you lose your Eidolon (the answer is still sufficiently powerful) and would an imp natural armor really stop a reasonable percentage of Eidolon deaths?
That said, you should surely pick up the resistance cantrip as you cannot equip 2 resistance cloaks at once.
Also, trip will certainly provide you with AOOs (you can trip twice per round with haste) and you are sacrificing a ton of damage by opting out of Str+2 (then Str+4) and not always keeping up improved bite.
Would reach-bite at level 6 really contribute more to a group than a ton of extra damage from improved bite, str+2 and power attack?
If you are a combat-focused min/maxer, I would be a lot more skeptical of the guide (though it is a great intro). Reach AoOs are a lot more rare when the GM decides to let NPCs fight in place (when possible).
Keep in mind Summoners who opt for control or defense at the expense of attack (which scales a lot better) will doubly suffer. You already must split your equipment slots between yourself and your Eidolon, so splitting equipment and evolutions again to opt out of damage is always poor in my opinion.
I would consider how powerful you are on the occasional times that you lose your Eidolon (the answer is still sufficiently powerful) and would an imp natural armor really stop a reasonable percentage of Eidolon deaths?
That said, you should surely pick up the resistance cantrip as you cannot equip 2 resistance cloaks at once.
Also, trip will certainly provide you with AOOs (you can trip twice per round with haste) and you are sacrificing a ton of damage by opting out of Str+2 (then Str+4) and not always keeping up improved bite.
Would reach-bite at level 6 really contribute more to a group than a ton of extra damage from improved bite and power attack?
That's why I like CMB based builds. Going large and huge gets your CMB to be very very high. Bipeds can typically hit somewhere around +40 CMB by level 20 if they take the supporting feats.
Thanks for all the good information, it helps to see the build from different angles. The summoner seems quite challenging to be build. And yes, it is for PFS (got moved here) nad thus lvl 12 is the end. And if I could edit my original post I would instead of posting again.
Esp. the eidolon, it is so difficult to set it up. The idea is to have reach and then be able to trip and later push to provoke AoO regularly. So, denying creatures full attacks, or an attack at all. On the other hand Kilroys advise is solid too, taking this into account. Merging the two ideas, below the new idea for an eidolon.
Question in regards to black tentacles. Does it count as an attack spell, so you get visible when casting normal invisibility? Or does it fall under the same category as the summon spells?
So here we go:
Half-elf, racial trait: arcane training, ancestral arms (lucerne hammer is a good idea, with going large, can I still attack the things in 10ft, or does the range for not being able to attack increase as well?), favored class: summoner (+1/4 evolution points), undecided about where to put the racial +2
STR: 14
DEX: 14
CON: 14 (racial +2)
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 12 (racial +2)
Feats: 1st: Toughness
3rd: Precise strike (on a flank this gets ridiculuous)
5th: Improved initiative
7th: Summoner’s call
9th: Expanded arcana
11th: Expanded arcana
Skills: focus on spellcraft and UMD, one point in craft to earn money, some in: fly, diplomacy, linguistics, handle animal and knowledge (arcana and planes)
Traits: anything better then world traveller (diplomacy as class skill)? and reactionary
Equipment: Wand (unfetter), do see the spell being more situational, same for expeditious retreat, scroll of see invisibility
Spells in order to be taken (and until he reaches lvl 12 Ultimate Magic is out, I expect some changes):
0-Level Summoner Spells: acid splash, detect magic, guidance, resistance, mage hand, read magic
1st-Level Summoner Spells: enlarge person, shield, mage armor (like the idea of 1x per day casting, esp. with a rod of extend), rejuvenate eidolon (lesser)*, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, reduce person
2nd-Level Summoner Spells: haste, evolution surge (lesser)* (retrain for resist energy when evolution surge becomes available), barkskin, invisibility
3rd-Level Summoner Spells: greater invisibility, evolution surge, black tentacles, dimension door
4th-Level Summoner Spells: evolution surge (greater)*, overland flight, teleport, summon monster V
Create pit is not in as it requires a save, and with CHA 14, most will make it, esp. later on
Eidolon
Lvl 1 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, STR+2
Lvl 2 – claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip
Lvl 3 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, improved bite
Lvl 4 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, push (claws), improved bite, gore
Lvl 5 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, improved bite, energy attack (acid), gore
Lvl 6 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, improved bite, energy attack, gore, STR+2
Lvl 7 - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, reach (bite), trip, improved bite, energy attack, gore, STR +2, improved natural armor
Lvl 8 - large, claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, trip, improved bite, gore, energy attack. STR+2
Lvl 9 - large, claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, trip, improved bite, energy attack, extra limbs, claws, STR+2
Lvl 10 - large, claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, improved bite, trip, push (claws), energy attack, extra limbs, claws, STR+2
Lvl 11 - large, claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, improved bite, reach (bite), push (claws), energy attack, extra limbs, claws, STR+4
Lvl 12 - large, claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), bite, improved bite, reach (bite), push (claws), energy attack, extra limbs, claws, rend, STR+4
Feats: Toughness, Precise strike, Power attack, lunge, combat reflexes, blind-fight
Skills: Perception, sense motive, fly, acrobatics and survival (?)
Equipment to get: amulet of mighty fist (+0 shocking, later on holy, icy?), belt of giant strength or physical perfection?
At lvl 10:
Form: Biped
HP: 76 (8d10+40)
AC: 29 (+2 Dex +12 NA -1 size) use mage armor and shield to boost to 37
Initiative: +6
Speed: 30 ft.
Ability Scores: Str 32 Dex 14 Con 17 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
Saves: Fort +11 Ref +5 Will +7
Feats: Toughness, Power attack, lunge, improved initiative, Multiattack (Bonus)
Evolutions (base): Bite, Limbs (Legs), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (extra, 16-point pool): large, bite, improved bite, trip, push (claws), energy attack, extra limbs, claws, STR+2
Special Abilities: Darkvision, Link, Share Spells, Devotion, Multiattack
Attack Routine: bite +19 (1d8+16+1d6) and 4 claws +19 (1d6+11+1d6)
Your revised build looks a lot better but keep in mind str+2 can be selected more than once. I would, since Str+2 gives +4 attack and +4 damage (assuming 4 natural attacks), making it an amazingly scalable evolution. I would also (as mentioned) drop improved natural armor.
It scales very well until level 8 where it costs 4 to pump strength or con from being large.
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The lucerne hammer while enlarged: It reaches and hits 15-20 ft. The 5-10 ft is inside the business end arc, so it not effective at that range. Therefore, you wear a cestus on your off hand. It allows you to wear it while wielding the polearm two handed, and releasing the polearm to do a one handed strike in close quarters. It is a simple weapon, so you don't need extra proficiency to use it. I say off hand (taking penalties), so you are not interfering with somatic components of casting. While enlarged, the cestus will hit 5-10 ft range, covering the gap if you cannot five foot step back and use the lucerne hammer.
Black Tentacles: The general rule is, if it affects the enemy, it is an attack. So, yes it would be an attack spell, unless you put it into an empty hallway.
Place the racial bonus on Con. You need to balance the +1hp/level normally taken as the favored class bonus that you are putting elsewhere. Dex for AC and Init would be my second choice. Not Str. Since you are swinging a two handed weapon, you want a 14 or 18 so the 1.5*bonus comes out non-fractional.
Traits: Cheliaxian Fiendish Presence gets you Diplomacy as a class, and a +1 to Diplomacy and Sense Motive. So, the Sense Motive bump is gravy over World Traveler. Dirty Fighter is nice if you will be flanking with anyone. About 1/2 my characters take the Additional Traits feat. Osirion Tomb Raider to get Perception as a class skill is one of my favorites.
I am telling you, the Mage Armor should be a wand. You get one for effectively free after your first adventure by spending 2 PA. You use it max 3 times per module, and level up every three modules. So, you will not drain the wand until about 7th level. Spend 2 PA a second time, and it carries you through your whole career. Spell slots are too precious. At first level, you can only cast two spells a day. You don't want to waste half your casting on utility. If you were playing in a home campaign that goes on forever, then your choice would have been good. The "only working occasionally" and fast leveling style of PFS allows a different tact.
The Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon wand is your second one for a flip side reason. When you are casting that spell, you are going to go through 3-5 castings a day in early levels, and later levels you can burn 20 charges on the wand. At 8th level, in one nasty module, my cleric went through an entire CLW wand after exhausting her channels on the party.
Same with Prot from Evil. When you know you are going to face a dominate happy creature, protect the whole party going in. Don't drain the summoner of all his first level spells for the day. Drain a wand. This spell has a second strike against it. Buy a wayfinder. Put a resonant clear spindle in it. You have the mind protection of Prot from Evil continuously. Cost: 4,250. Seeker of Secrets
The eidolon evolutions look fine. That is a very "flavor to taste" area. And since they can be changed every level, if you don't like something, you can try something else after three sessions.
Warning: Your feats for the eidolon don't change between levels. As far as I know, you keep your feat choices once they are made. I don't know if your level 10 eidolon block was a cut and paste error or not.
I hope that helps.
@Elyza: never thought about the cestus, that's solid! and also the view on spells help. I have no experience with the Summoner, and haven't played PFS at higher level, so will keep your advise in mind. Esp. with mage armor, protection from evil (and the wayfinder) and rejuvenate eidolon. Sounds like a summoner needs a lot of wands, and a wrist sheath spring loaded. Osirion Tomb Raider to get Perception as a class skill is a good advise.
The feats were a copy/paste mistake, will go with precise strike.
@Kilroy: STR+2 is nice, so might take that on instead of trip. And have to rework the eidolon from lvl 8 on as STR+2 costs 4 points instead of 2. Improved natural armor is a filler, any better one or two point evolutions when being large?
In regards to pure damage or reach with trip, probably will try the later for one level (2nd), and see how it goes. Being large I can see creatures being tripped quite often, thus being denied an attack, and more options for others to attack instead.
Cannot edit anymore, brrr
for arcane training, what has more uses, summoner (do not see the point, but probbly am missing something), or take cleric so I can use all cleric wands like CLW without doing a UMD check?
And languages: celestial and terran, later infernal (dretch, hellhound, and all elemental languages). Does anything need abyssal?
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for arcane training, what has more uses, summoner (do not see the point, but probably am missing something), or take cleric so I can use all cleric wands like CLW without doing a UMD check?
Summoners should never ever multiclass for obvious reasons (Eidolon). You can train UMD high but I've never found a need for CLW so far since of course everyone non-suicidal group has a healer and I have a rejuvenate Eidolon wand and am good at staying out of danger (I don't have one of those weak melee-summoner builds).
Read it totally wrong, my fault.
In regards to skills, are there any which I should pick up, esp. for PFS? Guess disable device, and maybe put skillpoint into each knowledge skill eventually, or focus on a few only?
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Here are the skill ranks I have at level 6:
Summoner skills/rank levels:
Knowledge (5 different ones): 1
Perception (I also have a trait to make it a class skill): 6
Linguistics: 1
Perform-act (for free gold in PFS play): 6
Spellcraft: 5
UMD: 1 (I may train this more later but never really needed CLW etc)
Eidolon:
Acrobatics: 1
Disable Device: 5
Knowledge-Planes: 1
Perception: 5
Sense Motive: 4
Stealth: 1
Swim: 2
Fly: 1
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I would still consider the pit and grease type spells despite teh save. You are designing an Eidolon to push people right?
I wouldn't. You are almost always going to caste haste and have the Eidolon move up in the first round. From then on, why try pushing when you have a devastating full round attack + trip? I think Summoners are much better at buffing than controlling. I'd leave that to the pros :)
On round 2, cast Enlarge Person on your 2h wielding fighter/barbarian with your reach rod, or Bulls strength etc.
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Pits and Grease: Push them into the pits, yep. Grease is always good. Grease the opponent's weapon. They generally drop it.
For PFS skills in my perceived order of importance:
Perception Maxed ~ Most rolled skill in the game
Spellcraft a few ~
Linguistics 1 ~ Now you get a roll to decipher unknown texts.
Disable Device 1 ~ other wise it cannot be used untrained
UMD 1 ~ allows you to try, and keep retrying until you succeed or disastrously fail
Handle Animal 1 or more ~ it actually has come up. And, your summoned monsters can be "pushed" to do something other than attack
Knowledge skills 1 each ~ spread it around, esoteric that others wouldn't take is better
anything left that is a class skill 1
Thanks again. I wanted to take Tomb Raider as a trait and Ancestral Weapon (being a half-elf). But, adaptable gives me skill focus (a +3, which equals the + from a class skill, going up to +6 at lvl 10, plus I can now take Heirloom Weapon, giving me proficiency, a +1 and a MW weapon, loosing a +1 to perception and dungeoneering). The later seems a better trade of. Or is adamantine quite common later on, so the first approach would at least leave me with 2x a +1 to skills?