I am going to be playing second darkness in a few weeks (4-5) and I am going over the type of character I want to play. I really want to play a Sorcerer for some reason (I always played wizards, rogues, fighters, warlocks, etc) but never a Sorcerer. Mainly because I liked being really versatile and having a huge spell book which I could use to fix any situation. But really I think a break and playing this would be nice.
So I looked at the Ranger in Treantmonks build and wanted to see if I could make my guy do more damage than his range attacks by level 6, and just as consistently, and over great number (though of course not unlimited as a Melee is).
This guy is a "Melee Touch" attack from 30ft+ guy. He doesn't want to get into melee, but he will get say 60 ft away (at level 6) and hit you with a shocking grasp (level 1, 5d6, no save/yes resistance 7/day), then he can use Ghoul Touch or Touch of Idiocry up to 4/day at 60 ft
Of course he still has Grease, Color Spray, Silent Image and party buffers/help like Invisibility/Haste.
Also with +10 Initiative I should be going first, or close to it most of the time for awhile. This is a zero gear build because I don't know how much GP I would have to spend on items, and how much items will be given to me.
But any items I should pick up would be REALLY appreciated.
So real quickly, I will be starting at level 1, but I want to know my build up to 5/6 or so, because it will help me know if he is workable. And I don't know what the rest of the party will be, but most likely it will have a odd character or 2, and a NPC run by the DM to fill any holes.
GEO KELOFF CR 5
Male Human Sorcerer 6
CG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +10; Senses Perception +7
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DEFENSE
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AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
hp 44 (6d6+12)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +5
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 6, +4 melee touch, +3 ranged touch):
3 (4/day) Haste (DC 17)
2 (6/day) Ghoul Touch (DC 16), Touch of Idiocy, Invisibility
1 (7/day) Identify, Silent Image (DC 15), Shocking Grasp, Color Spray (DC 15), Grease (DC 15)
0 (at will) Touch of Fatigue (DC 14), Mage Hand, Read Magic, Message, Light, Prestidigitation (DC 14), Detect Magic
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STATISTICS
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Str 12, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Elemental Spell: Acid, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Intensified Spell, Reach Spell
Traits Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp, Reactionary
Skills Bluff +11, Diplomacy +9, Knowledge: History +9, Perception +7, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +11, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Celestial, Common, Varisian
SQ +4 to Initiative checks, Arcane, Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su), Empathic Link with Familiar (Su), Metamagic Adept (1/day) (Ex), Share Spells with Familiar, Speak With Familiar (Ex)
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Action Points - 0/8
Metamagic Adept (1/day) (Ex) - 0/1
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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+4 to Initiative checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Arcane When a spell level is increased by a metamagic feat, it gains +1 DC.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Elemental Spell: Acid You can cast a spell with half or all its damage type replaced with this feat's damage type.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Eschew Materials Cast without materials, if material cost is <= 1gp.
Intensified Spell You can cast a spell that can exceed its normal damage die cap by 5 (if you have the caster level to reach beyond that cap).
Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Metamagic Adept (1/day) (Ex) Apply a metamagic feat 1/day without increasing the casting time.
Reach Spell You can cast a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium as one range category higher.
Share Spells with Familiar The wizard may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
Speak With Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
ARCANE FAMILIAR CR 6
Male Dinosaur, Compsognathus
NN Tiny Magical Beast
Init +6; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +10
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 16 (+2 Dex, +2 size, +4 natural)
hp 22 (1d10+18)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +5
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OFFENSE
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Spd 40 ft., Swimming (20 feet)
Melee Bite (Dinosaur, Compsognathus) +7 (1d3-1/20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +7/+2 (1-1/20/x2)
Space 2.5 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks Poison: Bite - injury (DC 15)
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STATISTICS
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Str 8, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 5
Base Atk +6; CMB +6; CMD 15
Feats Alertness, Improved Initiative, Toughness +6
Skills Bluff +1, Diplomacy +2, Fly +6, Perception +10, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +5, Stealth +18, Swim +7, Use Magic Device +3
Languages
SQ Improved Evasion (Ex)
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Action Points - 0/5
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Improved Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save; half on failed save.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Poison: Bite - injury (DC 15) (Ex) Poison deals 1d2 STR damage, 1/round for 4rounds, cure 1 save.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Swimming (20 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Ok... last little comments..
Seems to me the good things are the following:
7/day level 1 (best spell 5d6, 60 foot touch attack) Great damage, and no save with almost guarantee to hit, especially if they have metal armor/weapon (gives +3 to hit)
Cast invisibility 5/day (leaving 1 spell for my free +1 metamagic ghoul touch/touch of idiocry). I will be using this to overcome my low AC, and help my party, since I will be using battle field control unless I can stop the battle with a quick ranged melee touch attack.
Cast Ghoul Touch 5/day at 60 foot melee touch attack(1 from Arcane specialty being a level 2 spell at reach).
The Ghoul Touch is the key to me in humanoid combats, as this will take care of the majority of any CL appropriate encounters rather quickly. Anything non-humanoid means I will be using Haste and Invisibility and Scorching Rays possibly Touch of Idiocry. I would like a better spell for it's place but it fits the theme of the character, and can put a big hurt on some enemy's (like spell casters, or dumb monsters).
Any better spells that fit the build would be great, as well as possible items. Thanks!
I don't see this working out well for you. Blasts are underwhelming in Pathfinder, and single target blasts - doubly so.
CR 6 monsters have a touch AC between 8 and 14 (with some deviations, but the baseline is pretty clear), which averages to 11. With your +3 bonus to hit with a ranged touch attack, you're facing a 35% miss chance on average. Then, when you hit, you'll be dealing 17,5 points of damage on average, double that on the odd critical hit (but your chance of scoring one is pretty microscopic at this point). Taking all this into account, you should average some ~13 points of damage per round.
Now, the average CR 6 monster has about 70 hp. On average, it should take you 6 of your 7/day casts to bring such a monster down. Calling that "underwhelming" is an understatement.
Also, since you plan to use touch attacks at range, why do you prioritize Str over Dex?
+1 to the comment above. Why try to compete on direct damage? If you want to just blast away all day, stick with warlock.
You will find that when you take a class with a solid variety of different powers (flight, invisibility, battlefield control, etc) and reduce it to a one-trick pony, that it won't be fun to play.
Sorceror gear:
There are NOT that many things sorcerors need for gear. Sure, it's always nice to have a cloak of resistance, or a ring of protection. You generally do NOT need armor or weapons. So what's left?
Scrolls.
Scrolls are how a sorceror deals with situations like air elementals, who have an abnormally high touch AC. Or shambling mounds, who actually benefit from electricity damage.
Have a scroll of things that come in handy once is a while, like knock.
Learn spells that 1) depend on caster level and 2) you will cast every day
And let me throw this out there...
If you are focused on ranged touch attacks, you want to make them connect. Dex is your LOWEST stat, that's going to hurt.
It's bad both ways, actually. If a slow-moving guy in a bathrobe shoots me with lightning, I'm going to return the favor with my greatclub. Look at your build. Reach spell makes everything short range.
As in, move and attack the sorceror range. You will NEED dex to defend yourself. Also mage armor. Even then, you'll be a bit fragile. Drop identify, it's only needed every once in a while, and with some DMs, never.
A good dex also frees up a feat, since you won't need Imp. Init so badly.
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A good dex, along with point-blank and precise shot, would allow you to contribute when you are low on spells.
Aaaand, a bloodline with one of the ray attacks will really help you get to level 6. Take a look at your sorceror at level 1, and see how many ranged touch attacks you can make in a day.
Mage Armor is a must with this build, and if you're looking at zero gear, I'd strongly consider Shield as well.
If you want to deliver touch spells at range, consider Spectral Hand.
Spectral Hand
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect one spectral hand
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
A ghostly hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire, allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance. On casting the spell, you lose 1d4 hit points that return when the spell ends (even if it is dispelled), but not if the hand is destroyed. (The hit points can be healed as normal.) For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand. The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack roll, and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack. The hand always strikes from your direction. The hand cannot flank targets like a creature can. After it delivers a spell, or if it goes beyond the spell range or goes out of your sight, the hand returns to you and hovers.
The hand is incorporeal and thus cannot be harmed by normal weapons. It has improved evasion (half damage on a failed Reflex save and no damage on a successful save), your save bonuses, and an AC of 22 (+8 size, +4 natural armor). Your Intelligence modifier applies to the hand's AC as if it were the hand's Dexterity modifier. The hand has 1 to 4 hit points, the same number that you lost in creating it.
Are you planning on delivering shocking grasp through your familiar (which will provoke AoO) constantly? Cuz that's a touch touch spell, and reach spell gives you just six of those a day, at the expense of all your 2nd level goodies.
Dump the strength for Dex. you want to use rays, you need a ranged touch attack. I'd actually swap Int for dex and put the +2 for strength into int or wisdom.
As others have pointed out, blasting is not going to put you on the same level as dudes who are made purely for damage, since casters are not.
By 6th level I can have an archer firing 2-3 arrows a round doing d8+6 (14 strength, +4 deadly aim). That's before weapon focus/specialization, favored enemy, magic weapons, etc, etc.
All that said, shocking grasp is not a terrible spell to pull out in an emergency, and an intensified version can be alright. But I'd make my focus control and keep the blasts as a secondary.
Also, swap ghoul touch for hold person. It has a range without needing reach spell, targets will instead of fort, and doesn't require an attack roll. These are all good things.
Hold person also won't debuff anyone who tries to coup de grace the dude you just paralyzed.
Phneri Hold person is a 3rd level spell for wizard/sorcerer(glitterdust, scorhing ray, and web are better for 2nd level)
rkraus2 he can't drop identify it is his bloodline bonus spell known, you can't change those out.
Dragon78 wrote: Phneri Hold person is a 3rd level spell for wizard/sorcerer(glitterdust, scorhing ray, and web are better for 2nd level)
Whoopsy, forgot about that. I almost never play wiz/sorcs.
rkraus2 wrote: And let me throw this out there...
If you are focused on ranged touch attacks, you want to make them connect. Dex is your LOWEST stat, that's going to hurt.
I understand where your coming from but which ranged touch attacks would be better than the spells I have? All the touch spells I have are melee touch + reach = 1 Level higher spell with 30+ touch attack.
Now if there is rays that work better, or other ranged touch I would be willing to go that route, it just seems to me most of the good touch attacks are melee touch attacks. But I don't know all the spells well enough, so maybe you could help me there
rkraus2 wrote:
It's bad both ways, actually. If a slow-moving guy in a bathrobe shoots me with lightning, I'm going to return the favor with my greatclub. Look at your build. Reach spell makes everything short range.
As in, move and attack the sorceror range. You will NEED dex to defend yourself. Also mage armor. Even then, you'll be a bit fragile. Drop identify, it's only needed every once in a while, and with some DMs, never.
A good dex also frees up a feat, since you won't need Imp. Init so badly.
I agree with the AC looks like it might be a problem. But really is 12 dex, or 14 dex going to make that difference? It's only the difference between 10 and 12 AC.
To me I could get Mage Armor, Shield, etc... But wouldn't a wand be better for those spells as a sorcerer?
I can't drop Identify it's the free spell for my bloodline.
I have changed the build slightly from last night, I only take improved int. with my free feat at level 8 in the new build.
rkraus2 wrote:
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A good dex, along with point-blank and precise shot, would allow you to contribute when you are low on spells.
Aaaand, a bloodline with one of the ray attacks will really help you get to level 6. Take a look at your sorceror at level 1, and see how many ranged touch attacks you can make in a day.
If I run low on spells to use it's been to long of a day, and I think the party will need to rest. Dex of a +1 or +2 isn't going to make using a crossbow a wonderful thing.
Wouldn't turning a fireball into acid, or electric damage (and all elemental spells into 2 additional types) be a better use of a feat (or 2) than point blank shot, and precise shot? If I wanted to be ranged bow dude I would be a ranger/fighter right?
I just never found having a crossbow on either a wizard, or a sorcerer to be worth the investment in a few GP, let along some feats. But maybe I am wrong.
LazarX wrote: Mage Armor is a must with this build, and if you're looking at zero gear, I'd strongly consider Shield as well.
If you want to deliver touch spells at range, consider Spectral Hand.
Spectral Hand
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect one spectral hand
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
A ghostly hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire, allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance. On casting the spell, you lose 1d4 hit points that return when the spell ends (even if it is dispelled), but not if the hand is destroyed. (The hit points can be healed as normal.) For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand. The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack roll, and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack. The hand always strikes from your direction. The hand cannot flank targets like a creature can. After it delivers a spell, or if it goes beyond the spell range or goes out of your sight, the hand returns to you and hovers.
The hand is incorporeal and thus cannot be harmed by normal weapons. It has improved evasion (half damage on a failed Reflex save and no damage on a successful save), your save bonuses, and an AC of 22 (+8 size, +4 natural armor). Your Intelligence modifier applies to the hand's AC as if it were the hand's Dexterity modifier. The hand has 1 to 4 hit points, the same number that you lost in creating it.
Nice though this only applies to RANGED touch spells, not touch (non-ranged) spells correct?
So it seems this + reach metamagic mean any touch spells could be used at range other than close.
I understand people might not thing this is the most optimized build but here is why I am going this route.
GEO KELOFF CR 1/2
Male Human Sorcerer 1
CG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +2
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DEFENSE
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AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dex)
hp 8 (1d6+1)
Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +1 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 1, +1 melee touch, +1 ranged touch):
1 (4/day) Shocking Grasp, Color Spray (DC 15)
0 (at will) Touch of Fatigue (DC 14), Read Magic, Prestidigitation (DC 14), Detect Magic
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STATISTICS
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Str 12, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 12
Feats Eschew Materials, Reach Spell, Elemental Spell Acid
Traits Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp, Reactionary
Skills Bluff +8, Knowledge: History +5, Perception +2, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +5, Use Magic Device +8
Languages Common, Varisian
SQ Arcane, Empathic Link with Familiar (Su), Share Spells with Familiar
@Level 1 = 4x 1d6 Attack (but most likely it's color spray most every time at this level), touch, 35 feet range and unlimited cantrips, bluff (great for non-combat), and UMD (scroll it up! wand it up!)
@Level 2 = 5x 2d6 Attack, touch, 40 feet range and unlimited cantrips (add mage hand, and if available purchase Mage Armor wand)
@Level 3 = 6x 3d6 Attack, touch, 45 feet range and unlimited cantrips
(add grease, add elemental spell metamagic - acid, and if available purchase Shield want)
@Level 4 = 7x 4d6 Attack, touch, 50 feet range, 4x Invisibility OR increase range of Color spray, change Shocking Grasp into Acid or Cold Grasp.
Now so everyone knows why I chose shocking grasp because
Magical Linage Shocking Grasp + Reach Spell + Intensified Spell = Level 2 spell good until level 15 for xd6 damage touch attack where x=your CL.
Is there ANY OTHER spell that could be used from level 1 up, with magical linage so such effect? I don't think there is (atleast in PFSRD, will need to go over APG spells to be sure). To me utilizing those level 2 spells at say level 12-15 is going to be making use of "wasted space" those 2nd level spell slots.
Yes it only effects one target, but take for example at level 6 a CR 6 young White dragon.
Initiative will most likely be taken by me, shocking grasp, 6d6 dmg this would be about 22 pts of dmg. That is 1/3 of the dragon's health, not to mention I could have hasted the party, and made the rogue invisible before the fight giving more advantage.
Even a red dragon (young) CR10, would lose 1/4th it's life from shocking grasp - cold. What happens if I was level 10? Dragon would be taking about 75 pts of damage from the first hit (it has a total HP of 115 so more than 1/2 it's HP.
Now against smaller guys, like fairies, fey, etc.. Yes the touch attack will be limited but then AOE/Battle Field Control while invisible seems to be a good thing to do.
Again, maybe there isn't something I am seeing, or I am calculating things wrong (totally could be). But it seems like a pretty good over all character, who won't be as powerful as a wizard for versatility in planned battles, but should be able to handle his own in the group. I mainly just want to not be a hinderer and also allow myself to learn how to use a Sorcerer and also enable me to use some skills (like Bluff, Diplomacy, etc) which Wizards are not good at.
Ice_Deep wrote: Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 6, +4 melee touch, +3 ranged touch):
3 (4/day) Haste (DC 17)
2 (6/day) Ghoul Touch (DC 16), Touch of Idiocy, Invisibility
1 (7/day) Identify, Silent Image (DC 15), Shocking Grasp, Color Spray (DC 15), Grease (DC 15)
0 (at will) Touch of Fatigue (DC 14), Mage Hand, Read Magic, Message, Light, Prestidigitation (DC 14), Detect Magic
Ok. Rule #1 of playing sorcerors, know the spell list like the back of your hand. This matters even more than for wizards.
I'll mostly just critique your spell list.
0's: get resistance. It's only +1, but if you know you're about to get into something might as well use it.
1st:
Identify: This is a spell for wizards. Detect magic is good enough for sorcerors. Ah, just noticed that you got this off of bloodline.
Silent Image: Never get rid of this. Way too useful.
Shocking grasp: good.
Color Spray: This should be diminishing in effectiveness by now respec soon.
Grease: Keep it.
Magic Missile: Get this next level. The damage isn't the greatest, but it's force damage.
2nd:
Ghoul Touch: You have to make a melee touch AND they have to fail thr save. Not going to work too often.
Touch of Idiocy: While it looks good on paper, you're just not going to kill anyone's casting with this. On average you hit 3.5 points of damage with hit. So it'll take 2 hits to kill the casting of some monsters, but it'll take 3+ to kill the casting of anything important. That's 3+ rounds assuming you hit all the time.
Invis: I trust that you're using this frequently in your campaign. If you see that it isn't getting cast a lot respec it.
False life: This is an amazing level 2 because you can stack them up.
Scorching Ray: One of the better DPR spells at this level.
Create pit: This spell is golden. It rather effective as a SoL spell.
Glitterdust: This can do a lot of stuff.
3rd:
Haste: While haste is good, you can do better than a buff that doesn't really help you that much as your only 3rd level spell. You'll cast it like once per encounter tops.
Fireball: You need something to mow down a bunch of orcs.
Ray of Exhaustion: This can make fights against big smashy creatures much easier.
Rest you need to get a feel for your campaign. Pick up something like charm person if you do a lot of talking etc.
erik542 wrote:
I'll mostly just critique your spell list.
0's: get resistance. It's only +1, but if you know you're about to get into something might as well use it.
While we're talking 0 level spells.. why take light instead of dancing lights?
Also, why did you choose the arcane bloodline?
Wouldn't the aberrant bloodline for the reach on touch spells make more sense?
Also are you going to be using Human for the extra spells, otherwise I would suggest halfling and look seriously at stealth.
I would rethink your skills a bit as well.
Consider the following stats as a baseline (assuming Human):
STR 07 (-4pts)
INT 07 (-4pts)
WIS 07 (-4pts)
DEX 14 (5pts)
CON 14 (5pts)
CHA 20 (18+2 racial) (17pts)
This is currently only a 15pt buy. Spend from here up to your 25pt buy, but if you need to decrease a stat understand what you are getting for it and what you are giving up.
I'm not saying that this should be anywhere near your final stats, but rather than consider straight 10s I think that you are better considering this as a starting point.
-James
erik542 wrote:
Ok. Rule #1 of playing sorcerors, know the spell list like the back of your hand. This matters even more than for wizards.
I'll mostly just critique your spell list.
0's: get resistance. It's only +1, but if you know you're about to get into something might as well use it.
Really considered this, will prob add it since it is also getting reccomendation(s) erik542 wrote:
1st:
Identify: This is a spell for wizards. Detect magic is good enough for sorcerors. Ah, just noticed that you got this off of bloodline.
Silent Image: Never get rid of this. Way too useful.
Shocking grasp: good.
Color Spray: This should be diminishing in effectiveness by now respec soon.
Grease: Keep it.
Magic Missile: Get this next level. The damage isn't the greatest, but it's force damage.
Yeah wish Identify was a different spell, but what you going to do? Magic Missile seems like a possibility, just heard such negative things about it, and as a wizard it was the "I don't have any other spell prepared which will do anything" spell. Honestly I think mage armor would be better, but then it only gets used 1-2 times a day and is worthless if you can get bracers of armor +4. So I will look into this erik542 wrote:
2nd:
Ghoul Touch: You have to make a melee touch AND they have to fail thr save. Not going to work too often.
Yeah I found this out last night after making the post. The PFSRD has a quote from the Devs saying there is 2 saves, but the RAW wording seems to only indicate a save for the stench. erik542 wrote:
Touch of Idiocy: While it looks good on paper, you're just not going to kill anyone's casting with this. On average you hit 3.5 points of damage with hit. So it'll take 2 hits to kill the casting of some monsters, but it'll take 3+ to kill the casting of anything important. That's 3+ rounds assuming you hit all the time.
Yeah not big on it, but it being a no-save so thats why I threw it in there last night erik542 wrote:
Invis: I trust that you're using this frequently in your campaign. If you see that it isn't getting cast a lot respec it.
False life: This is an amazing level 2 because you can stack them up.
To me Invis is a must because it works for me and party members. Didn't know false life stacked, will have to add that for sure! erik542 wrote:
Scorching Ray: One of the better DPR spells at this level.
With Shocking Grasp, and free reach + Elemental Spell Metamagic (st least 2 types) I don't see how it is worth it,though it can hit more than 1 enemy.
So for a 2nd level spell, close range, 12d6 @ level 11 max
Or Shocking Grasp level 2 spell (Reach+Intensified) which does 11d6. Ok so the Ray is better, but is it worth a use of a spell when slot. I guess since it's slightly better, all ready at range and can hit multiple targets it could be nice. Though I don't see it being used past level 12 so I would have to switch it out (level 12-15 it loses DMG to shocking grasp).
erik542 wrote:
Create pit: This spell is golden. It rather effective as a SoL spell.
Seems like it is a effective battlefield control spell. Will check into it more, thanks. erik542 wrote:
Glitterdust: This can do a lot of stuff.
Will be added in some time for sure erik542 wrote:
3rd:
Haste: While haste is good, you can do better than a buff that doesn't really help you that much as...
This one really depends on the party makeup and what I feel my weakness are at this point in the campaign. If we have a bunch of melee, than Haste is great. If we have a bunch of casters, etc... Well I will be picking up something else. Maybe Slow? A AOE like Fireball maybe? What would you say for the only 3rd level spell I will have for a level?
Thanks for the input, the character is changing, I think I am using the advice I can while not effecting the vision I have for the character so I can improve his effectiveness as much as possible.
james maissen wrote: erik542 wrote:
I'll mostly just critique your spell list.
0's: get resistance. It's only +1, but if you know you're about to get into something might as well use it.
While we're talking 0 level spells.. why take light instead of dancing lights?
Because 1 minute vs 10 minutes, though since it's level 0 I guess it doesn't matter and dancing lights can be moved. So it seems dancing lights would be better now that I think about it.
james maissen wrote:
Also, why did you choose the arcane bloodline?
Wouldn't the aberrant bloodline for the reach on touch spells make more sense?
5 foot reach at level 3, and only another 5 foot reach later. Reach Spell feat gives you 30ft+5/lvl. So I don't have to wait until level 3 to use reach doing it this way and I have a longer reach at just the cost of a spell level (which arcane bloodline gives you free uses of). So to me it seems Arcane Bloodline+Reach Feat > Abyssal Bloodline+another feat. Am I missing something as to why you could want to wait until level 3 to have reach, and why you would think 5 feet is acceptable as opposed to 30ft+5/lvl?
james maissen wrote:
Also are you going to be using Human for the extra spells, otherwise I would suggest halfling and look seriously at stealth.
Something I have been thinking about, though I lose a feat and a skill point per level. I would gain AC, the reduction in str and the +! attack bonus (size) would cancel out, but I would get +! extra ranged touch. I didn't think about the balancing out, extra perception, and everything. Might be worth making a build like this human and seeing what I think. Gnome should also be a consideration because of the same, and it getting even more bonuses
james maissen wrote:
I would rethink your skills a bit as well.
Consider the following stats as a baseline (assuming Human):
STR 07 (-4pts)
INT 07 (-4pts)
WIS 07 (-4pts)
DEX 14 (5pts)
CON 14 (5pts)
CHA 20 (18+2 racial) (17pts)
This is currently only a 15pt buy. Spend from here up to your 25pt buy, but if you need to decrease a stat understand what you are getting for it and what you are giving up.
I thought I used 20pt buy, but it was late. The current characters I am working on are 20pt buy because 15 is to low, it's the same a an heroic NPC stat array.
james maissen wrote:
I'm not saying that this should be anywhere near your final stats, but rather than consider straight 10s I think that you are better considering this as a starting point.
-James Sorry but 7 INT isn't going to happen, I want my guy to have some skills, and roleplay ability. This campaign (according to the DM) is going to have sessions without ANY combat, having like 1-2 skills (forcing me to go UMD/Spellcraft) will be a bigger hindrance than +20 HP will give me at level 20.
I do understand your using 15pt buy, but even 20pt buy only leaves me with 3 skills leaving me to choose between using 14dex/14con/18cha, and that means UMD+Spellcraft and only 1 other skill? Choosing between Bluff/Intimidate/Perception/Knowledge-History/Knowledge-Arcane/Fly/Diplomac y with 1 pt? No thanks...
To me 12int is the lowest I can go and keep more outside combat abilities with skills. Alternating between those above skills with 2 pts isn't to bad. Bluff would almost always get raised, with the other going into fly occasionally but mainly knowledge skills.
20pt buy, 12/12/12/12/12/18 is better for me for humans, I will look at gnomes/halflings now. There bonus to perception is good as well, and with gnomes the free level 0 spells once a day is nice for some extra versatility.
Not trying to shoot your 14dex/14con down, when I make wizards thats normally what I do. Trying to do something a little different than just a sorcerer built like all the wizards I play. :)
I would strongly recommend Craft(wands) A reach wand of shocking grasp (CL 5) would cost 3,750 GP to make and would be 50 charges worth of 5d6 close range damage.
I, personally, would devote more to Dex than Str for this sorcerer, and drop Improved Initiative (for craft wand).
As a long time advocate of "roleplay, not powergame", I would recommend against dump stats UNLESS it is part of your concept.
EDIT: Also consider weapon finesse for melee touch attacks.
Well I think Human it is going to be, nothing any other class provides is = to 15+ spells known. Now if I can't take that alternate race feature, than Gnome would prob be better. I didn't realize that was the only way to gain that alternate race extra spells feature.
Kierato wrote: I would strongly recommend Craft(wands) A reach wand of shocking grasp (CL 5) would cost 3,750 GP to make and would be 50 charges worth of 5d6 close range damage.
I, personally, would devote more to Dex than Str for this sorcerer, and drop Improved Initiative (for craft wand).
As a long time advocate of "roleplay, not powergame", I would recommend against dump stats UNLESS it is part of your concept.
EDIT: Also consider weapon finesse for melee touch attacks.
I will be taking one craft item feat for sure. Wands/Staff/Wondrous all seem to have good things going for them.
Hopefully tonight I will post a updated build with some changes so people can give me the last tweaks/ideas especially on feat/spell selection, and items I should be looking for, and which item creation feat to take.
I'd go the human route personally, getting an additional spell each level is so good for a sorcerer, it's borderline broken actually. No amount of extra hp / skill points can compare to that.
I'd seriously reconsider blasting if I were you. It's the suckiest option spellcasters have in their repertoire. One cast of Haste on your teammates will generate more damage throughout the encounter than blasting every round, and you won't force a one encounter per day paradigm upon your team this way.
Just as it is for wizards, control is your best option as a sorc. Sorcerers make very interesting controllers, having limited options but more versatility on the spot, they play quite differently but just as interesting.
Ice_Deep wrote:
Consider the following stats as a baseline (assuming Human):
I understand that you likely don't want a 7 INT, I wasn't suggesting that you end up with a 7INT.
But what I was saying was that you should see what an additional skill would cost you. You were taking max ranks in knowledge history which I found very strange to say the least.
So I suggested that you see what you were really spending to get that knowledge of history up there (as an example).
Also when you use reach spell the touch spells become ranged touch, so will use your DEX to hit. As a ranged touch spell a miss will cause you to lose the spell.
I would suggest that you have spectral hand as a back up at the very least. Also I would suggest focusing on DEX and taking weapon finesse.
As to aberrant reach, I wasn't considering this instead of reach spell, but rather in addition to it.
I still don't know why you want arcane bloodline. There are a great deal of bloodlines out there. What do you want this one for and don't want others for?
The lack of increase on metamagics is nice, but its limited and you are going to exceed this limit. I would suggest that you consider a small sized caster mounted on a riding dog.
-James
amorangias wrote: I'd go the human route personally, getting an additional spell each level is so good for a sorcerer, it's borderline broken actually. No amount of extra hp / skill points can compare to that.
Yeah human it is, unless I can somehow get the DM to house rule that Gnomes/Halflings(maybe) could take that as well.
amorangias wrote:
I'd seriously reconsider blasting if I were you. It's the suckiest option spellcasters have in their repertoire. One cast of Haste on your teammates will generate more damage throughout the encounter than blasting every round, and you won't force a one encounter per day paradigm upon your team this way.
Well I don't want to be a "blaster" I just want to have a few spells that do work for dmg (shocking grasp, fireball?) and spend a few feats to make them better spells (Reach-Shocking grasp and other touch spells, Elemental:Acid, Cold for Shocking+Fireball). All the rest of my spells accept maybe 1 other blast spell will be SoD, or BC type spells for the most part with the best well used buffs and other spells thrown in.
amorangias wrote:
Just as it is for wizards, control is your best option as a sorc. Sorcerers make very interesting controllers, having limited options but more versatility on the spot, they play quite differently but just as interesting.
I agree that BC is the source of power in all of spellcasting, even divine. I just don't want to be in a situation where that is the only thing I can do, and would like to try and fit in some interesting skills for non-combat.
Thanks for the reply, trust me the build on the first page needs to be updated I think, because a lot of what people have said has been taken into account. Though I am mainly shifting a bit, not changing the build completely. I will update tonight and hopefully get some more good advice like I have been getting, though I may occasionally agree on a point here or there.
Ice_Deep wrote: amorangias wrote: I'd go the human route personally, getting an additional spell each level is so good for a sorcerer, it's borderline broken actually. No amount of extra hp / skill points can compare to that.
Yeah human it is, unless I can somehow get the DM to house rule that Gnomes/Halflings(maybe) could take that as well.
amorangias wrote:
I'd seriously reconsider blasting if I were you. It's the suckiest option spellcasters have in their repertoire. One cast of Haste on your teammates will generate more damage throughout the encounter than blasting every round, and you won't force a one encounter per day paradigm upon your team this way.
Well I don't want to be a "blaster" I just want to have a few spells that do work for dmg (shocking grasp, fireball?) and spend a few feats to make them better spells (Reach-Shocking grasp and other touch spells, Elemental:Acid, Cold for Shocking+Fireball). All the rest of my spells accept maybe 1 other blast spell will be SoD, or BC type spells for the most part with the best well used buffs and other spells thrown in.
amorangias wrote:
Just as it is for wizards, control is your best option as a sorc. Sorcerers make very interesting controllers, having limited options but more versatility on the spot, they play quite differently but just as interesting.
I agree that BC is the source of power in all of spellcasting, even divine. I just don't want to be in a situation where that is the only thing I can do, and would like to try and fit in some interesting skills for non-combat.
Thanks for the reply, trust me the build on the first page needs to be updated I think, because a lot of what people have said has been taken into account. Though I am mainly shifting a bit, not changing the build completely. I will update tonight and hopefully get some more good advice like I have been getting, though I may occasionally agree on a point here or there. Yeah, the thing about blasting is that the high level blasting spells aren't that much better than low level. So you cover your bases with a varied set of blasters at low level then mature into BC spells which aren't very good early but get to be very powerful at later levels. For social situations even by high level you only need a handful of spells for that. But knowing your party make up would be helpful. Basically since you can't over all bases you need to figure out what the party is lacking and fill that gap while picking a small number of spells in other areas just so that you can participate in other activities or if you get separated (common ploy to isolate the mage).
james maissen wrote: Ice_Deep wrote:
Consider the following stats as a baseline (assuming Human):
I understand that you likely don't want a 7 INT, I wasn't suggesting that you end up with a 7INT.
Ok.
james maissen wrote:
But what I was saying was that you should see what an additional skill would cost you. You were taking max ranks in knowledge history which I found very strange to say the least.
So I suggested that you see what you were really spending to get that knowledge of history up there (as an example).
Well I look at it as more of how many skills do you think I really need, and how many do I think I need? Can we go over which ones you disagree with?
1. UMD, A must correct? Gains you more versatility and allows so many things
2. Spellcraft, another must because of the ability to say counterspell, identify spells you see through detect magic, not to mention I need 15+ to get Spell Perfection Feat which I think works with the synergy of the build.
3. Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy I think having one of these near max is a must for the most part, especially at low levels were you don't have the spells to overcome things otherwise.
4.???? A bunch of skills see below
Now there is no other must have full skills, but I think Fly has to have a few points thrown in every few levels, as well as Perception (despite having a familiar its good to have some ability to perceive things) and the knowledge skills are nice to have at least a few points in.
This means I need at least 3 pts a level every level, and really 4 is more what is needed unless your going to short UDM/Spellcraft/Others to add a few points into Fly/Perception/Knowledge skills.
What about this do you disagree with if I may ask? And if you think the bonus in another stat and losing those skills (and which ones) would be worth it, and to which stat and why?
I understand Dex/Con for the +AC, +HP, I guess it's really what can you deal with more easily, and can be overcome more often, skill checks or AC/HP. It seems to me spells like Mage Armor/Shield/False Life are easier, not to mention Invisibility and battle field control/buff spells which mean most of the time I wouldn't be a target.
While to me the fact that sometimes you can't cast spells (normally more often in diplomacy/role playing situations) and those are where you can normally gain a benefit to your ability to make things happen with skills at that time.
Maybe it's a difference of the gaming table, and how the DM's do things, and a focus on skills vs the caster needing high HP/AC?
james maissen wrote:
Also when you use reach spell the touch spells become ranged touch, so will use your DEX to hit. As a ranged touch spell a miss will cause you to lose the spell.
I would suggest that you have spectral hand as a back up at the very least. Also I would suggest focusing on DEX and taking weapon finesse.
As to aberrant reach, I wasn't considering this instead of reach spell, but rather in addition to it.
I still don't know why you want arcane bloodline. There are a great deal of bloodlines out there. What do you want this one for and don't want others for?
The lack of increase on metamagics is nice, but its limited and you are going to exceed this limit. I would suggest that you consider a small sized caster mounted on a riding dog.
-James
Ok I didn't know about the Reach feat turning the touch spells into ranged tough! Makes it all the better and I can go something like CHA18/DEX14/CON14/INT12 and use STR8 as a dump stat getting me the skill points I need without losing to much.
Spectral hand is prob going to be 3rd level 2 spell I learn I imagine if it works well.
Arcane gives me free metamagics and extra spells. It is generally acknowledged as one of the better bloodlines I though, and works with the build in I will have high amounts of metamagic feats.
To me I see it this way...
Where is the sorcerer weakest? Normally people say in his limited spell pool, and being 1/2 a spell level behind in spell #'s and castings (on top level spells).
Arcane is the best bloodline for overcoming this for a number of reasons.
1. It gives you some ability to cast metamagics without raising levels a small number of times
2. It gives you free metamagic feats, Improved Init
3. It gives you free spells and the spells you get for the bloodline are some of the best spells with very few bad ones
4. You get a familiar, this gives you great versatility not to mention the equivalent of a free feet (+4 init)
5. You get improved DC to one school that STACKS with spell focus + greater spell focus which you can get as free feats
6. The capstone is pretty good
7. Any knowledge skill becomes a class skill
Now to me when I look at abberrant bloodline
1. Skill: Dungeoneering (Arcane lets you pick)
2. Spells you gain are about on par with Arcane lets say it's a push
3. Improved Init, Silent spell are the only real worthy feats, some would say combat casting, but I dislike it
4. Extended polymorph school spells, but doesn't stack with extend (not to great, a rod of extend normally beats this)
5. Acidic Ray.. Ehhh not that great, 1d6+1/2lvls is a little low behind level 1-3.
6. Long Limbs (this is the best thing, but you have to wait until level 3, it's only 5 feet and doesn't go up again until 11th and 17th (15 feet). Where just using the reach feat gives you 5 extra feet every level
7. Unusual Anatomy, could be useful, but rather situational at best
8. Alien Resistance (one of the better things, to bad you have to wait until level 15)
9. Abberant Form, I will admit this is prob better than the Arcane capstone.
To me the Arcane bloodline is a bit of a more even gain, where the Abberant bloodline is weak to start, and gains around 10-15 to become slightly better in some ways. At level 20 it's debatable which is better as it's really situational on which would be the better one.
Ice_Deep wrote: 9. Abberant Form, I will admit this is prob better than the Arcane capstone.
The Arcane capstone is hands down the most broken ability in the game. No questions asked.
Quote: Whenever you use magic items that require charges, you can instead expend spell slots to power the item. For every three levels of spell slots that you expend, you consume one less charge when using a magic item that expends charges.
Take forge ring, then make a ring of three wishes. Without bonus slots, you use that ability to get 90 free wishes every day. Surely you can find some way to beat any difficulty with 90 free wishes a day.
GEO KELOFF CR 1/2
Male Human Sorcerer 1
CG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +3
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+2 Dex)
hp 8 (1d6+2)
Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +2
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike -1 (1d3-1/20/x2)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 1, -1 melee touch, +2 ranged touch):
1 (4/day) Shocking Grasp, Color Spray (DC 15)
0 (at will) Read Magic, Prestidigitation (DC 14), Dancing Lights, Detect Magic
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +0; CMB -1; CMD 11
Feats Elemental Spell: Acid, Eschew Materials, Reach Spell
Traits Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp, Reactionary
Skills Bluff +8, Knowledge: History +5, Perception +3, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +5, Use Magic Device +8
Languages Common, Varisian
SQ +4 to Initiative checks, Arcane, Empathic Link with Familiar (Su), Share Spells with Familiar
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Action Points - 0/5
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
+4 to Initiative checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Arcane When a spell level is increased by a metamagic feat, it gains +1 DC.
Elemental Spell: Acid You can cast a spell with half or all its damage type replaced with this feat's damage type.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Eschew Materials Cast without materials, if material cost is <= 1gp.
Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Reach Spell You can cast a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium as one range category higher.
Share Spells with Familiar The wizard may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
--------------------
Then to level 6
GEO KELOFF CR 5
Male Human Sorcerer 6
CG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +5
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+2 Dex)
hp 38 (6d6+12)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +5
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +2 (1d3-1/20/x2)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 6, +2 melee touch, +5 ranged touch):
3 (4/day) Fireball (DC 17)
2 (6/day) Spectral Hand, Glitterdust (DC 16), Invisibility, Summon Monster II
1 (7/day) Identify, Silent Image (DC 15), Shocking Grasp, Mage Armor, Charm Person (DC 15), Obscuring Mist, Grease (DC 15)
0 (at will) Mage Hand, Open/Close (DC 14), Read Magic, Prestidigitation (DC 14), Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound (DC 14), Detect Magic
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 19
Base Atk +3; CMB +2; CMD 14
Feats Elemental Spell: Acid, Elemental Spell: Cold, Eschew Materials, Intensified Spell, Reach Spell
Traits Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp, Reactionary
Skills Bluff +13, Fly +6, Intimidate +9, Knowledge: Arcana +5, Knowledge: History +6, Perception +5, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +10, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Common, Varisian
SQ +4 to Initiative checks, Arcane, Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su), Empathic Link with Familiar (Su), Metamagic Adept (1/day) (Ex), Share Spells with Familiar, Speak With Familiar (Ex)
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Action Points - 0/8
Metamagic Adept (1/day) (Ex) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
+4 to Initiative checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Arcane When a spell level is increased by a metamagic feat, it gains +1 DC.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Elemental Spell: Acid You can cast a spell with half or all its damage type replaced with this feat's damage type.
Elemental Spell: Cold You can cast a spell with half or all its damage type replaced with this feat's damage type.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Eschew Materials Cast without materials, if material cost is <= 1gp.
Intensified Spell You can cast a spell that can exceed its normal damage die cap by 5 (if you have the caster level to reach beyond that cap).
Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Metamagic Adept (1/day) (Ex) Apply a metamagic feat 1/day without increasing the casting time.
Reach Spell You can cast a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium as one range category higher.
Share Spells with Familiar The wizard may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
Speak With Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
--------------------
I broke down and added Mage Armor to the level 1 spells, with the added spells from the human bonus spells, it's took functional at low levels to not have it.
I also picked Fireball for my only level 3, though I would feather have another spell it is a nice attack on a large area, and once I get level 4 spells it can be elemental-ed to acid, or cold which makes it a bit better.
Color Spray gets switched out for Grease at 4, Hideous Laughter out for SMII at level 6.
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 6, +2 melee touch, +5 ranged touch):
3 (4/day) Fireball (DC 17)
2 (6/day) Spectral Hand, Glitterdust (DC 16), Invisibility, Summon Monster II
1 (7/day) Identify, Silent Image (DC 15), Shocking Grasp, Mage Armor, Charm Person (DC 15), Obscuring Mist, Grease (DC 15)
0 (at will) Mage Hand, Open/Close (DC 14), Read Magic, Prestidigitation (DC 14), Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound (DC 14), Detect Magic
This a bit better?
erik542 wrote: Ice_Deep wrote: 9. Abberant Form, I will admit this is prob better than the Arcane capstone.
The Arcane capstone is hands down the most broken ability in the game. No questions asked.
Quote: Whenever you use magic items that require charges, you can instead expend spell slots to power the item. For every three levels of spell slots that you expend, you consume one less charge when using a magic item that expends charges.
Take forge ring, then make a ring of three wishes. Without bonus slots, you use that ability to get 90 free wishes every day. Surely you can find some way to beat any difficulty with 90 free wishes a day. And then a rock falls on me and I die ;)
I like the way this looks better than the first one, Though I am still of the opinion of taking craft wand, but to each his/her own.
Ice_Deep wrote: erik542 wrote: Ice_Deep wrote: 9. Abberant Form, I will admit this is prob better than the Arcane capstone.
The Arcane capstone is hands down the most broken ability in the game. No questions asked.
Quote: Whenever you use magic items that require charges, you can instead expend spell slots to power the item. For every three levels of spell slots that you expend, you consume one less charge when using a magic item that expends charges.
Take forge ring, then make a ring of three wishes. Without bonus slots, you use that ability to get 90 free wishes every day. Surely you can find some way to beat any difficulty with 90 free wishes a day. And then a rock falls on me and I die ;) Nope, you can wish that away. (That qualifies under the undo the past option)
Kierato wrote: I like the way this looks better than the first one, Though I am still of the opinion of taking craft wand, but to each his/her own. I don't know when I will take a item creation feat, or which but it's in my thoughts, mainly I want one before the capstone so I can make my own items to use with it. For this reason I am leaning towards staff, but wand is a possibility if I go earlier.
erik542 wrote: Ice_Deep wrote: erik542 wrote: Ice_Deep wrote: 9. Abberant Form, I will admit this is prob better than the Arcane capstone.
The Arcane capstone is hands down the most broken ability in the game. No questions asked.
Quote: Whenever you use magic items that require charges, you can instead expend spell slots to power the item. For every three levels of spell slots that you expend, you consume one less charge when using a magic item that expends charges.
Take forge ring, then make a ring of three wishes. Without bonus slots, you use that ability to get 90 free wishes every day. Surely you can find some way to beat any difficulty with 90 free wishes a day. And then a rock falls on me and I die ;) Nope, you can wish that away. (That qualifies under the undo the past option) If your dead you can't activate the ring :)
Dragon78 wrote:
rkraus2 he can't drop identify it is his bloodline bonus spell known, you can't change those out.
Sure you can, you just need a new bloodline. If you want to be a ranged touch attacker from level one on, I'd grab a bloodline with a ranged attack.
I think the sorceror is getting better, but I'll throw one more vote at Aberrant.
And focus on the low-level abilities people. Most campaigns do not go to 20, and if they do, they usually end. A capstone ability might see the light on day once or twice in three years. A good first level ability will be used every session.
The extra reach is awesome because from 10ft away, you can deliver a 1st level shocking grasp, instead of using reach spell and delivering a 2nd level metamagic shocking grasp. Same effect, cheaper price.
I've burned through all the spells on a 10th level sorceror on a tough adventure. Believe me, every slot will count.
rkraus2 wrote: I think the sorceror is getting better, but I'll throw one more vote at Aberrant.
And focus on the low-level abilities people. Most campaigns do not go to 20, and if they do, they usually end. A capstone ability might see the light on day once or twice in three years. A good first level ability will be used every session.
The extra reach is awesome because from 10ft away, you can deliver a 1st level shocking grasp, instead of using reach spell and delivering a 2nd level metamagic shocking grasp. Same effect, cheaper price.
I've burned through all the spells on a 10th level sorceror on a tough adventure. Believe me, every slot will count.
You do understand I have Magical Linage - Shocking Grasp so a +1 metamagic effect doesn't raise it's level of spell slot used, right?
I understand for other spells, but for that one because of the trait it gets free metamagic add-ons of +1. Since I am using feats to make shocking grasp good up until level 15 using only a 2nd level spell slot (and thats from level 11-15).
Now for other spells, I will have to pay the extra spell slot, IF I don't use my x/day free metamagics.
I understand where your coming from I just think I weight things a bit differently as far as that 5 foot reach at level 3, and 10 at level 11. To me that is just not far enough to take that bloodline. Reach feat is a lot more range and while it costs a spell slot higher (sometimes) it's worth it to get another 30 feet on the reach.
You have to reach 3+ times a day (spells other than shocking grasp). I don't see myself using it more than that many times a day, and if I do I will pay the 1 spell slot cost to have the extra versatility the arcane bloodline provides.
I'm getting extra Initiative (+4), boost to my spot (+2), a familiar who has sense, free metamagics daily, 3 extra spells, better feats.
Not to mention I plan on getting a ring of wizardry II, and later III. How about 30 shocking grasps a day, 15 at 10d6, and 15 at 15d6 at level 15 using only level II and III spell slots?
Two questions:
1) How are you getting "X free metamagics"?
2) You do know you can only add a matamagic feat once per spell (cannot intensify twice), right?
Ice_Deep wrote:
This better?
Looking better.
Could you include ranks in the skills list so it's easy to see what you've spent points on?
Also I would suggest considering raising the CHA. For example the following stats:
STR 07 (-4pts)
INT 12 (2pts)
WIS 08 (-2pts)
DEX 14 (5pts)
CON 12 (2pts)
CHA 21 (18+2racial+1 bump) (17pts)
It's not a lock, but seems to focus you a bit more. The other option is
STR 07
INT 11
WIS 07
DEX 14
CON 14
CHA 21
Or 14INT and 20CHA, but that depends what level you are planning to play at eventually and how long it will take you to get there,
James
Ice_Deep wrote:
You do understand I have Magical Linage - Shocking Grasp so a +1 metamagic effect doesn't raise it's level of spell slot used, right?
Ok, ok. for shocking grasp only, you can get away with it. Bad example. But I feel my point still holds. I'm suggesting reach spell is bad. I'm suggesting that arcane bloodline is bad, and should be replaced. Both air elemental and stormborn offer some benefits that you are missing now.
1) Spellcasting provokes. If you are in AO range, shocking grasp might not work. That's why reach is so nice.
2) Large monsters exist. So you'll have to choose between the AO, or capping at 5d6 damage.
3) SR = yes. Shocking grasp will just not work against some creatures.
4) Lightning damage. That means another category of monsters who are grasp immune.
5) You're limited to short range. Against enemies with long range options, like evil archers or manticores, you'll have a lot of trouble.
6) If you're in melee, there's no safe place to park your familiar. It could easily get taken out by an area effect, or part of a full attack.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're determined to shock all the time, at least take a look at eldritch knight. Better BAB, potential to do a lot better in melee.
rkraus2 wrote: Ice_Deep wrote:
You do understand I have Magical Linage - Shocking Grasp so a +1 metamagic effect doesn't raise it's level of spell slot used, right?
Ok, ok. for shocking grasp only, you can get away with it. Bad example. But I feel my point still holds. I'm not suggesting reach spell is bad. I'm suggesting that arcane bloodline is bad, and should be replaced. Both air elemental and stormborn offer some benefits that you are missing now.
1) Spellcasting provokes. If you are in AO range, shocking grasp might not work. That's why reach is so nice.
2) Large monsters exist. So you'll have to choose between the AO, or capping at 5d6 damage.
3) SR = yes. Shocking grasp will just not work against some creatures.
4) Lightning damage. That means another category of monsters who are grasp immune.
5) You're limited to short range. Against enemies with long range options, like evil archers or manticores, you'll have a lot of trouble.
6) If you're in melee, there's no safe place to park your familiar. It could easily get taken out by an area effect, or part of a full attack.
7) Touch AC has defenses. Concealment, mirror images, darkness, and cover will all be difficult for you.
As an example, try this guy out against a sample bad guy, like an ogre. Looks pretty good, right? Now look at the harpy archer. You'll have trouble. A vrock with mirror image at will and SR? You lose.
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If you're determined to shock all the time, at least take a look at eldritch knight. Better BAB, potential to do a lot better in melee. Worth a level of, say, ranger to get in. Especially since that will help your other saves, and guys in the front line have to make a lot of saving throws.
And make sure that you've got at least one good long range spell on the list. Try Acid Arrow. If you're air elemental bloodline, it could even be shock arrow.
Kierato wrote: Two questions:
1) How are you getting "X free metamagics"?
2) You do know you can only add a matamagic feat once per spell (cannot intensify twice), right?
You know your right on both accounts, I think my brain let me down here, lol. Woops :(
I thought (misread) the Adept was free metamagics, not just a casting time adjustment.
Also for some reason I forgot Shocking Grasp is only good until 10d6 with intensify. I thought it was 10d6 max, not 5d6.
Good catches :)
Now I guess I will have to consider a way to add on additional power through empower spell maybe? Even with it being good until level 10 as a level 2 spell is really good IMO. I will prob drop the ring of wizardy I and pump it to a IV or III since the level I's would be only 5d6.
Still at level 10, 13x80' touch attacks for 10d6 isn't bad. :) especially when you consider you still have 7 level III's, 6 level IV's and 4 level V's left.
One more thing, how are you getting an 80 ft. range with a reach touch spell at level 10?
Kierato wrote: One more thing, how are you getting an 80 ft. range with a reach touch spell at level 10? Reach Feat =
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long.
Level Increase: Special. A reach spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level for each increase in range category. For example, a spell with a range of touch increased to long range uses up a spell slot three levels higher.
Spells modified by this feat that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged touch attacks.
Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, or medium do not benefit from this feat
Close
The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels.
Ok, I was a bit off, dang math :P
25 feet+25 feet=50 feet at level 10, still not bad. But 30 feet short of the 80 I had calculated wrongly :(
Thanks again for the catch.
What I'm wondering is how you're getting +4 init from your familiar? Also Magic Missle is great. If you don't want to take it as a spell at least grab a wand of it for those times you run out of spells(which will most likely happen) as a backup.
Ice_Deep wrote: Nice though this only applies to RANGED touch spells, not touch (non-ranged) spells correct?
So it seems this + reach metamagic mean any touch spells could be used at range other than close.
No... it's designed to allow you to use melee touch spells at range. The hand created is the carrier instead of your physical hand.
MichaelJ82 wrote: What I'm wondering is how you're getting +4 init from your familiar? Also Magic Missle is great. If you don't want to take it as a spell at least grab a wand of it for those times you run out of spells(which will most likely happen) as a backup. The new companion from Bestiary 2 under dinosaurs. gives +4 init. I never noticed it before. Got a new companion for the divination wizard I was making ; )
I'm playing an arcane sorc myself and I'm about to hit level 6 shortly. So I, too, have been wondering about what 3rd level spell to pick first. I'm going to pick summon monster III. It has amazing versatility. Meatshields, buffer, blindsense, pouncer, stinking cloud and so on.
Just something you might want to consider.
Look at the APG and take Race that you can give extra spell know.
I see where you are trying to as Arcane Strikeer type.
Look at APG at Meta Magic Reach.
Do not go havles either go melee touch or range touch.
If melee look at Team work Presise strike and team work Flank. As a party.
Circelet of Persuasion casue It give you +3 on Casting spell in combat now in path finder. Since Casting in combat is now type of abilty check.
Shar Tahl wrote: MichaelJ82 wrote: What I'm wondering is how you're getting +4 init from your familiar? Also Magic Missle is great. If you don't want to take it as a spell at least grab a wand of it for those times you run out of spells(which will most likely happen) as a backup. The new companion from Bestiary 2 under dinosaurs. gives +4 init. I never noticed it before. Got a new companion for the divination wizard I was making ; ) Yeah magic missile is all right but it's a personal preference. In my last like 2 years of DMing pathfinder I never seen it work very well, so I am prob not going to take it. I really would rather spend 20K on a ring of wizardry I than a magic missile wand.
And yes the +init is from the dinosaur Compsognathus.
You can get a dinosaur as a familiar and it gives you +4 init?!! That's freaking awesome. I need to get my hands on some Bestiary 2. As for Magic Missle to each his own. I don't leave the inn without it if I'm playing a soc/wiz. But I have a tendency to miss a lot even with touch.
MichaelJ82 wrote: You can get a dinosaur as a familiar and it gives you +4 init?!! That's freaking awesome. I need to get my hands on some Bestiary 2. As for Magic Missle to each his own. I don't leave the inn without it if I'm playing a soc/wiz. But I have a tendency to miss a lot even with touch. +1
Kierato wrote: MichaelJ82 wrote: You can get a dinosaur as a familiar and it gives you +4 init?!! That's freaking awesome. I need to get my hands on some Bestiary 2. As for Magic Missle to each his own. I don't leave the inn without it if I'm playing a soc/wiz. But I have a tendency to miss a lot even with touch. +1 Yeah I guess I will find out once I start playing, as all GM's are different, and I might be up against a lot of creature were MM is good. If that happens I will take it as the other level 1 spells I take are just for versatility.
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