I'm sure a million threads have been posted about this, but I can't seem to find most of them... So here's another!
Here is the description so we can reference it: Gate
Essentially, I want to know how to use this spell in a way that makes sense and doesn't break campaigns (and doesn't get my squished!)
First of all, I could summon Bob the Solar for 1 battle and pay out 10,000gp. He then poofs and we call it a day. Alternatively, I could summon Bob the Solar and ask him to assist me with [insert campaign goal here] and offer to pay him 23,000gp at the end. (Or is that not a good enough "task" so this doesn't work for the spell) From that, I would get roughly 3 weeks worth of assistance from Bob. Obviously Bob could refuse to help in certain tasks if he did not approve, or he could snub me altogether and say that my 20th level quest is not worthy of his attention. But assuming for the sake of argument that my task aligns well with his interests as do my methods (perhaps I am a paladin of Bob's god).
Likely, over the 3 weeks of service, Bob would help us with more than 3 battles, making the extra investment worthwhile. But here's the question... is this game-breaking? Did I misread the spell somehow and this is not a proper useage of the spell?
Does it become worse if everyone in the 4-person party chips in and over the course of a couple of days I enlist the help of Bob the Solar, John the Elysian Titan, Tom the Star Archon, and Dick the Draconal? Total cost would be 33,000 per party member (which is obviously significant, but not overburdening at 17th level). At that point, the 4 PCs could stay home and sip tequila sunrises while staring into a giant crystal ball mounted on the wall and cheering on team Gate. Is that game breaking?
I think there needs to be a line at some point, there just doesn't seem to be! How have other used this spell without having it break the game?
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I think the key with this, and other uber-high level spells is the GM. You make a lot of assumptions with your scenario that may or may not work. Remember, just because you are a paladin in service of the same god, does not give you cart blanch to essentially command some of the most epic creatures in his/her employ. Keep in mind that a creature that powerful is likely to be missed by your god and would not be very happy if it died in your service.
I'm sure a million threads have been posted about this, but I can't seem to find most of them... So here's another!
Here is the description so we can reference it: Gate
Essentially, I want to know how to use this spell in a way that makes sense and doesn't break campaigns (and doesn't get my squished!)
First of all, I could summon Bob the Solar for 1 battle and pay out 10,000gp. He then poofs and we call it a day. Alternatively, I could summon Bob the Solar and ask him to assist me with [insert campaign goal here] and offer to pay him 23,000gp at the end. (Or is that not a good enough "task" so this doesn't work for the spell) From that, I would get roughly 3 weeks worth of assistance from Bob. Obviously Bob could refuse to help in certain tasks if he did not approve, or he could snub me altogether and say that my 20th level quest is not worthy of his attention. But assuming for the sake of argument that my task aligns well with his interests as do my methods (perhaps I am a paladin of Bob's god).
Likely, over the 3 weeks of service, Bob would help us with more than 3 battles, making the extra investment worthwhile. But here's the question... is this game-breaking? Did I misread the spell somehow and this is not a proper useage of the spell?
Does it become worse if everyone in the 4-person party chips in and over the course of a couple of days I enlist the help of Bob the Solar, John the Elysian Titan, Tom the Star Archon, and Dick the Draconal? Total cost would be 33,000 per party member (which is obviously significant, but not overburdening at 17th level). At that point, the 4 PCs could stay home and sip tequila sunrises while staring into a giant crystal ball mounted on the wall and cheering on team Gate. Is that game breaking?
I think there needs to be a line at some point, there just doesn't seem to be! How have other used this spell without having it break the game?
The money required to cast the spell is not trivial unless the party is skimping on gear or has more gear than many DM's give out. I limit the spell by CR instead of HD. HD never sense to me.
The spell is powerful, but it really depends on how much gold you have to waste also, and how well the DM plays your opponents. You also would not get XP if you stayed home and the monster did the quest for you which may leave you underpowered when it matters. Another point to consider is that turn about is fair play, and most BBEG's are more powerful than any of the party casters.
Remember that Gate got changed in Pathfinder. Unless you know Bob the Solar by his name (read: the DM is feeling lucky), you can't pull him in and control his actions.
He can't call Bob the Solar, who may have class levels or be advanced, but he can still call a Solar if his caster level is high enough. Even Jim the common Solar is a CR 22 or 23.
Remember that Gate got changed in Pathfinder. Unless you know Bob the Solar by his name (read: the DM is feeling lucky), you can't pull him in and control his actions.
Good point. Replace them with Planetar, Devas, etc (things at 17HD or less).
Same point stands.
I understand the GM can escalate, but GMs often have prepared encounters and or an adventure path to follow. In theory me casting a spell shouldn't be able to blow the whole rest of the campaign wide open...
Honstly, having a Planetar around isn't much worse than a full PC caster ...
It's actually sorta better since it casts as a 16th level cleric and has a full load of SLAs to go with it. Not to mention regeneration/SR etc...
No comment on my original reply?
At the levels your casting Gate, a BBEG is being underplayed severely if he isn't monitoring what your up to.
He might just laugh at your massive gold expenditure and get the lackies ready with wands of Dismissal too...
I thought I covered that with "I understand the GM can escalate, but GMs often have prepared encounters and or an adventure path to follow. In theory me casting a spell shouldn't be able to blow the whole rest of the campaign wide open..."
Not all GMs in all situations have the flexibility to suddenly massively retune an encounter on the fly. Not to mention that making all of your BBEGs 100% prepared for what the players are doing is a great way to annoy the fun out of your players really fast.
In fact I am asking from a player's perspective, not a GM. I don't want to make life hard for my GM, I like him. I'd rather use the spell in a way that's not going to upset the balance of the game as it is.
IMO, letting the PCs get away with something crazy once isnt a bad deal... so they spend 33k each to let a group of gated creatures crush your BBEG, so what... I hear tell you have infinite amounts of BBEGs waiting around the corner! I wouldn't let them continue to do such through my own creative planning, that at least once may involve the BBEG doing exactly what you are doing to it to you, read that as.. not to your gated creatures, but to you while they are away. 33k per character is nothing to laugh at, and if they want to do it more than once then they are digging themselves a mighty big hole gear wise. They might argue that it is not part of WBL because it is expendable, but I tend to ignore WBL for the most part anyways, so losses are losses, gains are gains.
I don't really like the idea that all BBEGs are monitoring what you are up to all the time.. sure they have the means, if they are aware you are you, and are after him, but it often doesn't fit in the games i play or run.
Just keep in mind the 33k is the cost to retain the creatures for 2 weeks+, which should be more than enough to mop up a LOT of BBEGs.
You get the Gate spell at level 17 at the earliest.
By that point, i do not see it as a problem.
.........
Travel = Cost none
Summon Creature = Cost 10,000 gold in incense or offerings.
A) You can not control a creature with more HD than yourself.
B) Once the service is done, the creature is Free to return to its home plane. Being free does not mean it has to.
Last = Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, and not under your control.
........
High level spell. Has build in dangers. You want to make sure creature Gated in is happy and on its way home when your done, or more build it dangers.
I am not very sure i got most of what you are saying in this thread but i have to ask:
Are you talking about opening a gate to creation and calling a solar exalted?
I don't mean to necromancy my own thread, but I had a question about CR when your monsters use gate...
So if a Great Wyrm Umbral Dragon (CR 22) happens to learn gate at 9th level and casts gate 4 times to summon 4 immolation devils as the heroes are battering down his dungeon door, does that change the CR of the encounter? Normally spells cast by a creature don't change the CR as they are just part of the difficulty of the encounter, but this seems a bit extreme...
He might just laugh at your massive gold expenditure and get the lackies ready with wands of Dismissal too...
So what level are we making these wands of dismissal at...
Are we just going to make a ton and go for broke on the odds?
By the time you start tossing around Gate for calling purposes you are in the end game. First off all unless you are a 23 level caster you aren't getting any Solar (23 HD) because PF nerfed the HD limit (with justification). Second you still need negotiate with the called creature as to service, while 1000 gp per HD per day might be the per diem for planar ally spells it might be appropriate for the DM to adjust that amount.
So suppose that the party needs some assistance and calls a Planetar. As a CR 16 monster he definitely provides a power boost to a APL 17 party but is it truly unbalancing? You are expending 27,000 gp for a 1 day boost.
I think the key is that if you nerf it too much in comparison to the greater planar ally spells then nobody is going to want to use Gate. It will be let's spam Time Stop every battle.
Now it does have a lot of value as an area nuke if you are willing to call a high end aggro monster and then get out of dodge. Either open a sustained gateway to a fiendish plane or summon something from beyond space like an avatar of Azathoth ;) Such shenanigans are pretty much the domain of evil madmen but you never know.