1000 gp gun Can i kill and rob the gunslinger yet, just for the gun.
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1500 gp musket gun = 20% pawn shop = 300 gold profit each.
1000 gp pistol gun = 20% stolen property = 200 gold profit each.
10 gp black powder = 20% pawn shop = 2 gold profit each.
1 gp bullet = 20% pawn shop = 2 silver profit each.
Gunslinger start out with =
Firearm: At 1st level, a gunslinger gains either one
musket (along with 50 doses of black powder and 50
bullets) or two pistols for free.
Musket & Powder/shot = 2050 gp = 20% fence = 410 gp resale profit
2 Pistols and powder/shot = 2550 gp = 20% fence = 510 gp resale profit
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Trained Hireling = 3 silver wages per day = 2 gold 1 silver a week
Untrained Hireling = 1 silver wages per day. = 7 silver a week
Profession = 1/2 profession check in gold a week.
While I find your incessant attacks at this class in poor taste and far beyond "constructive criticism"; I, too, believe these weapons are overpriced as is.
They asked for feedback.
and
I am asking question so i can better understand the class.
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I think the class is a cool idea, i really like the way they did the guns, and ninja and samurai are fun as well. The best way to know when someone is not learning, is when they ask no question. I like to learn, so i ask lots and lots of questions :)
They asked for feedback.
and
I am asking question so i can better understand the class.
...............
I think the class is a cool idea, i really like the way they did the guns, and ninja and samurai are fun as well. The best way to know when someone is not learning, is when they ask no question. I like to learn, so i ask lots and lots of questions :)
Sorry, it just seems that you are just tearing the class apart.
Also, this isn't really a question.
The question is, when my PC runs across NPC Gnolls, Goblins, or Orcs. And They are packing guns and gunpoweder.
What is going to prevent me from making a living casting Sleep, Stun, or Fear (drop what held and run), and making a living off the sale of there guns alone.
I love the idea. But this will quadrapole the amount of money low level character will have. I could see buying magic items by level 3 at this rate.
It does change the game economy.
The question is, when my PC runs across NPC Gnolls, Goblins, or Orcs. And They are packing guns and gunpoweder.
What is going to prevent me from making a living casting Sleep, Stun, or Fear (drop what held and run), and making a living off the sale of there guns alone.
I love the idea. But this will quadrapole the amount of money low level character will have. I could see buying magic items by level 3 at this rate.
It does change the game economy.
Which is why I agree that guns should be cheaper, especially for what you get. You still make all of your posts in the least tactful way possible.
A simple "You should consider lowering the price of the guns", would have sufficed and would have seemed a lot less offensive.
If nothing else, with death coming so easily to 1st level characters (many with single digit HP), and 2nd level to a slightly lesser extent, it's a valid question as to how it should be handled if low level PCs come into possession of a firearm. I hadn't considered this.
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Yes, this is one of those problems that, yes, if taken to extremes/left to run amok unchecked could conceivably ruin a campaign world..
The question is, when my PC runs across NPC Gnolls, Goblins, or Orcs. And They are packing guns and gunpoweder.
What is going to prevent me from making a living casting Sleep, Stun, or Fear (drop what held and run), and making a living off the sale of there guns alone.
...but really..
Campaign specific? If we want an abundance of firearms in our campaigns then so be it - let all and then some run amok with them...
...and yes, watch the economy crumble.
o-o
Mighty Longbows exist, right?
They're pretty pricey as well, right?
Does every high-str humanoid in our campaigns have a mighty longbow?
O_o
Full plate armour?
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If the selling o' lots of guns is crippling the economy - we can use less guns.
I would hope that in the final product there would be cheaper starting guns (e.g. a lower quality pistol that only does 1d6 (M) ) in a similar way that you might have to start with a shortbow instead of composite longbow.
Also, having to keep track of both bullets and black powder seems like pointless book-keeping - you're not going to buy 50 bullets and 3 bags of powder so why not have a single price (suggest 5gp not 11gp) for enough powder and a bullet for a single shot.
I would hope that in the final product there would be cheaper starting guns (e.g. a lower quality pistol that only does 1d6 (M) ) in a similar way that you might have to start with a shortbow instead of composite longbow.
Also, having to keep track of both bullets and black powder seems like pointless book-keeping - you're not going to buy 50 bullets and 3 bags of powder so why not have a single price (suggest 5gp not 11gp) for enough powder and a bullet for a single shot.
If the book is introducing black powder, then it will need to have rules for what happens when you are in the middle of a fireball carrying 4 bags of powder on your person. As well as rules for how much damage a cask of powder does when you put it under the portcullis and light it.
Ergo, you need a price for a cask, sack, powderhorn of powder. Now, you need to know how many shots you can fire with same, because otherwise you have the isanity of having a cask of powder and bullets but not being able to put the two together yourself because you don't know how many powder charges you have in the cask.
Ergo, it's just better to keep track of charges of powder and bullets separately.
If the book is introducing black powder, then it will need to have rules for what happens when you are in the middle of a fireball carrying 4 bags of powder on your person.
No they won't. Not any more than "What does Alchemist fire do in a fireball?!?!?!"
Since apparently glass is very easy to obtain in the game, what dumb ass is going to keep something like gunpowder in a bag?As well as rules for how much damage a cask of powder does when you put it under the portcullis and light it.
Only maybe.
But yeah, there is a serious pricing issue with firearms and even more serious pricing issue with gunpowder and bullets. Since these are obviously just flintlocks, people are just going to use sling bullets. And I don't even know where to start with gunpowder.
The prices of the guns are pretty steep, but then again, the advent of firearm technology is supposed to be relatively new to Golarion. The Gunslinger's write-up even says that they've been hiding its secret for some time. It only makes sense that this fledgling technology is extremely expensive.
Just don't throw level 1 Gunslingers at your PCs. They're supposed to be as rare as mess anyway - why the heck would any GM in his right mind throw level inappropriate treasure at his PCs anyway? You'd might as well hand a Goblin Warrior a +2 Longsword at first level.
As far as ammunition goes, I agree that they need to find a new way to deal with it. Having two numbers to keep track of could be a pain.
Just don't throw level 1 Gunslingers at your PCs. They're supposed to be as rare as mess anyway - why the heck would any GM in his right mind throw level inappropriate treasure at his PCs anyway? You'd might as well hand a Goblin Warrior a +2 Longsword at first level.
Which suggests one more deficiency to the utility of this class. If a GM can't, in sane conscience, introduce villains and NPCs that are gunslingers, the GM toolbox has one potential component from the Ultimate Combat book subtracted.
The prices of the guns are pretty steep, but then again, the advent of firearm technology is supposed to be relatively new to Golarion. The Gunslinger's write-up even says that they've been hiding its secret for some time. It only makes sense that this fledgling technology is extremely expensive.
Just don't throw level 1 Gunslingers at your PCs. They're supposed to be as rare as mess anyway - why the heck would any GM in his right mind throw level inappropriate treasure at his PCs anyway? You'd might as well hand a Goblin Warrior a +2 Longsword at first level.
As far as ammunition goes, I agree that they need to find a new way to deal with it. Having two numbers to keep track of could be a pain.
Making classes that are off-limits, out of bounds, or generally DISCOURAGED for players is not the path they should be taking IMO.
Glass runs into some problematic issues when you consider the rough and tumble life of an adventurer. Just to answer your question.. just given Earth history again. The problem with glass is that it tends to break. In real life flintlock history pouches were the way powder was kept.. it was less bulky, cheaper, and less prone to breakage.
This is D&D, not the real world - EVERYTHING is stored in a glass vial. You can keep your multihundred gold magic potions in glass vials but not a charge of gunpowder?
1000 gp gun Can i kill and rob the gunslinger yet, just for the gun.
Using a Golorian specific example, the prices of firearms are high because the people making the weapons want to control distribution of the weapons. One easy way to do so is to inflate the prices. This does not mean that you'll automatically even get 20% of the weapons value. In many places in Golorian, firearms are considered weapons for madmen or fools, not something that is going to sell quickly.
If there is no market for the weapon they aren't going to buy it, and in Glorian at least, there isn't much of a market. So you may only be able to sell them in the larger cities, which means they're just extra weight until you get to one. Also, while a shopkeep may buy the first batch you bring in (or part of the first batch), they may not buy the second and third.
"Hey shopkeep, we've got a bunch more pistol's and muskets!"
"Keep'em, I haven't sold the last batch you brought in yet."
Shop's aren't automatted vending machines, you don't just drop guns off and get 20% of their value every time.
There are plenty of ways to control the possible money glut created by the price of guns, without having to have a hard coded rule.
Maybe the Gnoll firearms are poorly maintained or manufactured (possible increase in misfire chance) and are only worth a fraction. Maybe firearms are outlawed in a region.
1000 gp gun Can i kill and rob the gunslinger yet, just for the gun.Using a Golorian specific example, the prices of firearms are high because the people making the weapons want to control distribution of the weapons. One easy way to do so is to inflate the prices. This does not mean that you'll automatically even get 20% of the weapons value. In many places in Golorian, firearms are considered weapons for madmen or fools, not something that is going to sell quickly.
If there is no market for the weapon they aren't going to buy it, and in Glorian at least, there isn't much of a market. So you may only be able to sell them in the larger cities, which means they're just extra weight until you get to one. Also, while a shopkeep may buy the first batch you bring in (or part of the first batch), they may not buy the second and third.
"Hey shopkeep, we've got a bunch more pistol's and muskets!"
"Keep'em, I haven't sold the last batch you brought in yet."
Shop's aren't automatted vending machines, you don't just drop guns off and get 20% of their value every time.
There are plenty of ways to control the possible money glut created by the price of guns, without having to have a hard coded rule.
Maybe the Gnoll firearms are poorly maintained or manufactured (possible increase in misfire chance) and are only worth a fraction. Maybe firearms are outlawed in a region.
The whole "shops aren't automatic vending machines" discussion has NOTHING to do with this thread. But, that aside, shops kind of do have to be automatic vending machines in anything but homebrew campaign worlds and in those, the DM either has to make the effort to ONLY drop useful stuff for the party or is a jerkass - "What do you mean you aren't properly equipped? You are getting the perfect WBL? It's all in +1 Ogrehooks that you can't sell? So what?" It's only wealth if you can either use it or sell it.
Idea!
Since it reasonable to argue that something rare and hard-to-manufacture, like a firearm where the technology is new, would be expensive, and since it is unreasonable to gimp the gunslinger class by not providing them with a gun, or by discouraging their use in the world, et cetera, and since a solution of "it is hard to sell guns" or "you'll never be able to sell this specific item for 20% value" is not very good game design, how about this:
The starter gun(s) that gunslingers get is a hand-me-down, or a hack job. Something that the gunslinger themselves have trained with and repaired and worked on over and over -- maybe even made. They know the gun(s) inside and out, and therefore can use it without issue....but in the hands of anyone else it is a broken and useless piece of scrap metal, worth maybe 10gp on the best day.
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A couple of things: 1) you're assuming that all firearms are going to be 1 bullet to 1 dose of black powder. This may not be the case in the final rules. To me it sounds like the firearm rules are already finalized in the Inner Sea Guide, and there very well may be guns that require more than one dose of BP.
2) I'm wondering why everyone is mentioning 20% sell value... PF uses 3.5 selling percentage of 50% (selling treasure pg 140 CRB), 4E used the 20% selling value. The selling treasure section specifies weapons, so unless you house rule, selling a gunslinger's weapons will net you 750g-1000g without including the powder.
@cartigan why do you believe that anything a DM interprets has to be homebrew?
every thread you post in on magic, or shops, or availability has this underlying know it all-ness to it that what someone states is automatically wrong.
I was going to say the same exact thing.
a Gun is rare, that is why it is expensive, it's not made from uranium, if you melted it down for its metal you would get no more than the worth of a daggers metal.
The early guns were all unique, hand crafted weapons and were works of art, individually speaking.
That being said, the person buying the stolen gun would have some explaining to do, as this is an easily tracked hot item, and if the gun slinger is still alive, will likely be looking for it.
People buying firearms are going to be merchants, civilians, is your 4th level expert shopkeeper really going to want to explain himself to the 1st level gunslinger when we comes looking for it?
How would the shop keep make a profit on it? Who is he going to sell it to?
We get into the law of supply and demand, if you find 12 dozen rings of protection +1, maybe number 13 has less worth because you've saturated the market?
On the other hand maybe in the campaign there are so many young adventurers this is an easily turned over item they are all buying and so there is a high demand?
the same would be true for gunslingers. are there a ton in your neck of the woods? with them blowing up and all, there could be a decent market for used ones?
But 1k gold suggests rareity.
Homebrew would make the gun 200 gold.
Homebrew would NOT be role playing the shopkeep saying "i don't know what i would do with such a thing, i could ummmmm give you 10 gold?" It's quite possible the shop keep has never seen Or heard of one before!
then when the gunslinger you robbed it from comes to town asking around "Im looking for a new "thunderstick" he might be in luck if the shopkeep hears about it, wow! I just bought this thing! and i can already sell it!
Selling it back to the man who's property it already is, is going to be an interesting roleplaying situation to begin with.
Could involve haggle, diplomacy, intimidation?
He only bought it for 10 gold, but what will he sell it for? that would totally have to be role played out.
just as the selling part of the thing would have to have been role played out.
The fact of the matter is the shop keep didnt have to buy the thing at all. Try selling a used kirby vacuum cleaner, maybe a g4? you might not be able to sell it anywhere except in a pawn shop for way less than its worth or in your yard sale for a few bucks more.
Conversely if the gunsligner who got robbed walked into the wrong town, or the robber was unable to unload his gun in this town and moved on, there might not be a gun at all there available to purchase (totally up to the DM and totally not "homebrew")
The core rule book is a set of guide lines, not "it says i can buy a vorpal sword for X gold, and I have x gold so you HAVE to sell me a vorpal sword"
If Im playing the shop keeper because Im the DM (thats what DMs do they play the NPCs) then even IF I have a vorpal sword I #1) dont have to sell it : "well Ive had three people look at it and leave a deposit on it so far, so unless you can come up with the extra money above and beyond what they've put down, pluuuus a little extra for me.... Ill have to say wait in line sonny"
#2) I could sell it for less than the book suggests: "my goodness I forgot that was even here, say I cant rightly remember what I even paid for it, what will ya offer me?"
or #3) even require something beyond gold to get it. "Well you see, although I do have it, I hate to part with it, you see back in the day I was an adventurer too, and this belonged to my good friend algaroth the mighty! Perhaps youve heard of him? Well we were nearly all killed by the 22 headed hydra in the blackmoor swamps, and although I got poor algaroths body out, I never could find anyone to resurect him, I thought I'd open this shop and sell things to make a living and maybe someday get together enough money to bring his remains to the great temple in absalom.....say, I you folks could help me with that, and get algaroth raised, Id sell ya this sword HALF PRICE! but then do, you think you could help us get revenge on that ole 22 headed hydra too??"
thats not homebrew, it's role playing and adventure hooking.
DM controls economy, DM controls everything. thats RAW not homebrew.
As far as guns go, i think they should have a paragraph explaining the uniqueness and difficulty finding/selling firearms as a guideline to curb that issue.
Loosing them certainly gimps a gunslinger too.
But starting with them makes him what? Insanely rich?
No.
The gunsligner obviously learned under someone, so somewhere out there, is a master gunsligner, perhaps these weapons were once his? and are now hand me downs. so these ones are A) labeled with uniqueness and many people would recognize the symbol and B) well used and not worth as much in resale.
Would be a simple paragraph for starting equipment i think and i do beleive there should be a game mechanic for the gunslingers 'personal' weapons, not guns in general, just ones that have been made by, for, or start in the possession of a gunslinger.
Throwing in another vote that a first level character getting 2000gp of weapons for free is crazy.
GMs should not HAVE to explain why the PC can't sell the gun for the full 50% like everything else. If a gun is not worth 500gp to the average shopkeep, then it should not be listed as having a market price of 1000gp.
I am unsure how I'd like to see this solved, as I like guns being rare and expensive. The idea that a gunslinger's starting guns are low-value hand-me-downs that only work for the gunslinger sounds like a plausible fix.
i still havent seen any one make a point why the gunslinger cant use crossbow as well as guns would that not solve the problem.
hell if you ever fried a crossbow in real life, most have pistol grips and fell just like a gun when fired..... kick and every thing
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I would hope that in the final product there would be cheaper starting guns (e.g. a lower quality pistol that only does 1d6 (M) ) in a similar way that you might have to start with a shortbow instead of composite longbow.
Also, having to keep track of both bullets and black powder seems like pointless book-keeping - you're not going to buy 50 bullets and 3 bags of powder so why not have a single price (suggest 5gp not 11gp) for enough powder and a bullet for a single shot.
Have the gunslinger start with drastically reduced wealth and with fewer rounds. I can see characters making their own ammo and powder with a portable kit (bullet press, pestle, etc). The normal basic kit could be 20 gp.
As for starting weapon, give them a derringer (as pistol but 1d4 damage and range 10, +2 sleight of hand checks) or arquebus (as musket but 1d8 damage and range of 30ft).
Or have the starting weapon in worse condition. I have been using firearms for a while and have cheaper versions that have seen heavy use. The barrels have the worn condition (firearms only). Light wear has a -1 to hit and reduces cost by 50% or heavy wear has -2 to hit and reduces cost by 75%. A craft check with 50% of the normal creation price to create a new barrel.
I also think the costs are too high for the bullets and powder. 5 sp for a bullet (lead, not steel). And blackpowder is made from relatively cheap and easy to obtain materials (saltpeter, sulfur, charcoal) can cost 5gp. The blackpowder and premade bullets can't be found in most shops. Blackpowder can deal 1 damage per charge.
D&D has set the rate of selling weapons/armor/etc at 50% value.
If the DM wants to modify that then they are deviating from the rules.. which is fine- there is nothing wrong with that.. but you can't come and suggest "houserule the sell cost and its fine!" and not expect to get told "take your houserules to another discussion".
The fact of the matter is: If the gun isn't worth 1k, its not worth 1k. The rule needs to be adjusted, by lowering the cost of the weapon. If you, the DM, say that the gun costs 1k on open market but sells for 200gp then you are altering one of the core assumptions of the adventurer market. Again- no problem- but you are essentially using rule 0 to attain balance.. and that really doesn't help a playtest at all.
The price of the guns needs to be modified so that a DM can legitimately present a level 1 gunslinger to the party as an opponent without their loot breaking the WBL guidelines. That is a simple fact.
-S
The question is, when my PC runs across NPC Gnolls, Goblins, or Orcs. And They are packing guns and gunpoweder.
What is going to prevent me from making a living casting Sleep, Stun, or Fear (drop what held and run), and making a living off the sale of there guns alone.
I love the idea. But this will quadrapole the amount of money low level character will have. I could see buying magic items by level 3 at this rate.
It does change the game economy.
Which is why I agree that guns should be cheaper, especially for what you get. You still make all of your posts in the least tactful way possible.
A simple "You should consider lowering the price of the guns", would have sufficed and would have seemed a lot less offensive.
Seems to me that he's just pointing out a problem. You sound overly defensive; since this actually is a noticeable problem. Guns are extremely overpriced for their value; to the point that being a gunslinger would be a huge pain since you definitely won't be picking up large quantities of ammunition off of enemies ("Ok, we got 331 arrows off the goblin archers, and we did find some sling bullets too, as well as a few throwing axes, a light hammer, a pack of darts, a few javelins, a pair of spears, some crossbow bolts, and three flasks of acid; but you're out of luck Rodney, 'cause 300 gp worth of shotgun shells just weren't there").
Instead of just saying "hey, the guns are overpriced", he showed that they were overpriced. He gave examples why they're overpriced. He showed how silly they are overpriced. He's doing something good for the playtest; discouraging him from doing so would only hurt the playtest. I'd want just that kind of specific reaction (and do want) when I'm designing and adjusting the game.
As-is, firearms shouldn't be very expensive at all. I realize that Golarion has inflated firearm prices for campaign specific reasons; but really the guns aren't very impressive. A pistol is 1,000 gp for a 4.5 damage touch-attack at low levels. It's arguably inferior to the light crossbow (1d8, 19-20/x2, better range, doesn't make huge amounts of noice - really, that should be addressed), and it costs 1,000 gp.
As is, the very cost associated with using this inferior weapons makes it so that most of my players aren't even interested in trying it out for playtest purposes; because everything is just too expensive.
Slightly Off-Topic: I would ignore the prices given for the untrained laborers in the PF book, because they are wrong. The minimum a human is probably going to make per week is about 4 gp (assuming they have a -1 check penalty in Intelligence and Wisdom) thanks to the mechanics for Craft & Profession; so perhaps after the cost of living expenses that might be how much spending money they have per week, but it's not anywhere near accurate.
Back on Topic: Even still, at about 5 gp per week average, it's a wonder anyone even bothers to use guns; 'cause as presented the bow is superior in every way. More range, quieter, cheaper (let's see, you could buy a masterwork composite longbow that supports up to a +6 strength modifier for about the same cost as a non-masterwork pistol, and it has a x3 critical hit multiplier). Even a hand-cross bow is better for most things, since it still is exotic, can be loaded quickly with the same feat cost, can be dual wielded, ammunition is more freely available, and it's far more stealthy.
Combine this with the fact the gun goes bonkers if you roll a 1 (statistically 1 out of every 20 shots), and this makes the weapon a joke; and the character built around it the butt of that joke; since this would be a PC that's wasted levels in a class that requires them to invest huge chunks of their wealth into specializing in sub-par weaponry, and probably getting the party killed for using it (unless everyone's going to assume that all the guns aren't loud and wouldn't attract attention; in which case I assume the playtest should probably be considered over now and 100% perfect; and we should all get back to the game).
Just sayin', Kierato.
Here is the problem:
This is OMGHighFantasy, and in that, no one invented guns because of magic. But people really like guns, so you are trying to reconcile a No-Guns! setting with all the guns people want in it. How do you do that? Make them stupidly expensive. Now what happens when you add a class that uses guns basically exclusively? You have some one who can't afford to play their class before level 5 - in a game where you get alot of loot.
Either guns are, effectively, regular weapons and are priced on par with other weapons or they don't exist. You can't try to discourage guns by making them illusive and rare and expensive while at the same time introducing a class that uses them as a matter of course.
Here is the problem:
This is OMGHighFantasy, and in that, no one invented guns because of magic. But people really like guns, so you are trying to reconcile a No-Guns! setting with all the guns people want in it. How do you do that? Make them stupidly expensive. Now what happens when you add a class that uses guns basically exclusively? You have some one who can't afford to play their class before level 5 - in a game where you get alot of loot.
Either guns are, effectively, regular weapons and are priced on par with other weapons or they don't exist. You can't try to discourage guns by making them illusive and rare and expensive while at the same time introducing a class that uses them as a matter of course.
and what about letting that player play said class with crossbows till at such time they can afford to buy a gun with a enough ammo to support its use
Maybe they could have different prices for Golarion and the generic Pathfinder game?
Since guns are suppossed to be super rare in Golarion they are extremely expensive anywhere than in Alkenstar. While for the core game they have prices more in line with other weapons. You could have a sidebar in ultimate combat explaining that all gun prices are multiplied by ten in areas where firearms are rare.
Maybe they could have different prices for Golarion and the generic Pathfinder game?
Since guns are suppossed to be super rare in Golarion they are extremely expensive anywhere than in Alkenstar. While for the core game they have prices more in line with other weapons. You could have a sidebar in ultimate combat explaining that all gun prices are multiplied by ten in areas where firearms are rare.
that would be reasonable
I don't think it's really an issue, for the first several levels that gun is the player's lifeline, he's not going to sell it and run around with a long sword. Its like a wizard's spellbook. Even if the player did try to sell the guns what would he buy?
take the two pistols:
Sell one, take your extra 500 gp and get a breastplate and buckler, a gun kit and more black powder and ammunition. Then get some low cost potions perhaps a wand of mend because you are going to need it.
The main problem i see is that the gunslinger automatically starts out with this amount of gold equipment.
Every other class, does not start out that way.
They have starting gold, from which to buy there equipment. Fighter/Ranger/Paladin having the highest at 175 starting gold average. From that amount they then buy there weapon, armor, and equipment.
175 gold Equipment = 20% thief guild = 35 gold max return (even then some stuff is just not worth it weight vs haul it to town time cost , like a club, arrows, sp or cp items).
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PS = Ashiel, thank you.
For what the gun does it doesn't seem worth the cost.
Wand of Magic Missile vs. Gun
1d4+1 vs 1D8 (medium).
Automatic hit Range 110ft vs Range Touch (20 ft), Incriment penalties.
Cost 750 GP vs 1,000GP for weapon and 11 GP per shot.
Standard Action to use vs standard action to use but it can become broken by rolling a 1.
I get that technology is cool and secretive so this is a very unique item in this world. The Gunslinger itself should be able to negate a lot more of the gun penalties without using Grit, this way the guns become more appealing to play with.
(This is just a light comparison of items around the same value)
That's a pretty interesting comparison Sarrion. A shot from a wand of magic missile costs 15 gold. A shot from a gun costs 11 gold and can blow the gun up.
Don't forget the Wand of Mending so you can keep repairing the gun. Also it doesn't appear that there aren't any restrictions on the gun blowing up whether it is epic or made out of adamantine so you could be doing your nice fast reload shots, roll 2 1's in a row and BAM good by 100k!
A steadfast gun, +4 enhancement bonus, reduces the misfire chance by 2, minimum 0, that means the gun never explodes
On the other hand, an adamantine weapon is significantly cheaper than 32,000gp
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The question is, when my PC runs across NPC Gnolls, Goblins, or Orcs. And They are packing guns and gunpoweder.
What is going to prevent me from making a living casting Sleep, Stun, or Fear (drop what held and run), and making a living off the sale of there guns alone.
I love the idea. But this will quadrapole the amount of money low level character will have. I could see buying magic items by level 3 at this rate.
It does change the game economy.
Which is why I agree that guns should be cheaper, especially for what you get. You still make all of your posts in the least tactful way possible.
A simple "You should consider lowering the price of the guns", would have sufficed and would have seemed a lot less offensive.
New to the internet and geek culture, I take it?
And getting offended by snark on the internet about an RPG is kinda silly, don't you think?
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If the book is introducing black powder, then it will need to have rules for what happens when you are in the middle of a fireball carrying 4 bags of powder on your person.No they won't. Not any more than "What does Alchemist fire do in a fireball?!?!?!"
Since apparently glass is very easy to obtain in the game, what dumb ass is going to keep something like gunpowder in a bag?Glass runs into some problematic issues when you consider the rough and tumble life of an adventurer. Just to answer your question.. just given Earth history again. The problem with glass is that it tends to break. In real life flintlock history pouches were the way powder was kept.. it was less bulky, cheaper, and less prone to breakage.
Having played a gunman in Arcanis, I don't have problems with the fact that you need to keep separate track of shot and powder. After all despite the name, these are not the six shooter cartridge guns of the old west, but arms that are centuries more primitive.
Glass also has this funny habit of shattering or melting in extreme heat. At least in the real world. I guess not in "I can get hit by a fireball and everything I own is perfectly pristine and intact" post-2e D&D derivatives.
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Here is the problem:
This is OMGHighFantasy, and in that, no one invented guns because of magic. But people really like guns, so you are trying to reconcile a No-Guns! setting with all the guns people want in it. How do you do that? Make them stupidly expensive. Now what happens when you add a class that uses guns basically exclusively? You have some one who can't afford to play their class before level 5 - in a game where you get alot of loot.
Either guns are, effectively, regular weapons and are priced on par with other weapons or they don't exist. You can't try to discourage guns by making them illusive and rare and expensive while at the same time introducing a class that uses them as a matter of course.
(and this is going to hurt)
Agree, 100%.
A steadfast gun, +4 enhancement bonus, reduces the misfire chance by 2, minimum 0, that means the gun never explodes
No, it reduces the misfire chance by 2 AFTER it gains the broken condition, bringing it down to 3 with a pistol.
So your odds to have it blow up during a full round attack are quite high and your rate of return is quite low when compared to a +5 Bow which will cost slightly less.
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As I see it now, the advantages of guns over other ranged attacks are:
1. Touch attack in near range.
2. Exploding damage dice.
Which makes them viable alternatives to bows and crossbows for low level play. Where they remain the most expensive and least accessible. Hrm.
Repricing may be in order. The way prices work in the core rules, they are mostly benchmarks and balancers, a way of evaluating the relative utility of various bits of loot the PCs acquire. If I want to do accurate market economics in my game, I will (and believe me, I do) but that requires repricing of everything. Not just guns. So bring the price down and have done with it. The rarity of gun-using setting NPCs in adventure paths and Golarion art should help preserve the high-fantasy flavor without getting us into a long and fruitless debate about how firearms 'ought' to perform.
EDIT: let me also say that I approve of crossbow-shootist gunslinger (crossbows have been a popular 'pistol' alternative in fantasy for a long while, and will only get more popular thanks to a character in that abhorrent Diablo 3 that looms over the horizon) and that, setting wise, I can only see three large users of firearms. Alkenstar and the surrounding lands have real incentives to keep using them. Sailing ships on the inner sea ought to have some amount of medieval cannon and familiarity with gunpowder, as the 'civilized' world in Golarion feels somewhat 1500's in tech level (with 1700's mixed in at spots). And hobgoblins, who loathe magic and would go out of their way to produce alchemical and scientific alternatives to magic.
As I see it now, the advantages of guns over other ranged attacks are:
1. Touch attack in near range.
2. Exploding damage dice.Which makes them viable alternatives to bows and crossbows for low level play. Where they remain the most expensive and least accessible. Hrm.
Do you mean the chance for it to explode? I thought the damage was simply 1d8? (pistol)
I'm not sure if the problem the expensive guns poses is any different from having Wizard NPCs around. While the value of their starting gear is still less than the Gunslinger, they still have nice spellbooks that are worth a nice chunk of money, more at higher levels. Maybe even a masterwork item too.
The GM should keep an eye on the encounters he is throwing out, along with a idea of how much treasure he wants the party to get. Throwing out a band of NPC wizards or gunslingers can throw that off. If you want to throw out a lot of gunslingers, it should still be fine, but a good chunk of the treasure from the adventure will come from the guns themselves.
Here is the problem:
This is OMGHighFantasy, and in that, no one invented guns because of magic. But people really like guns, so you are trying to reconcile a No-Guns! setting with all the guns people want in it. How do you do that? Make them stupidly expensive. Now what happens when you add a class that uses guns basically exclusively? You have some one who can't afford to play their class before level 5 - in a game where you get alot of loot.
Either guns are, effectively, regular weapons and are priced on par with other weapons or they don't exist. You can't try to discourage guns by making them illusive and rare and expensive while at the same time introducing a class that uses them as a matter of course.
(and this is going to hurt)
Agree, 100%.
Agree on this as well.