Can the feats Rapid Shot and Many Shot be used at the same time? There has been much discussion at the gaming table over this.
Thank you the arguing can now stop.
More specifically, for feats you can tell if they'll work together by considering the requires actions.
For Manyshot: "When making a full-attack action with a bow..."
And for Rapid Shot: "When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon..."
Compared to Shot On the Run (requires a Full-Round Action) and Pinpoint Targeting (requires a Standard Action) for instance, you can see that nothing in the action statements for Manyshot and Rapid Shot preclude each other. So long as you are making a full attack with a bow (and willing to take the -2 on all attacks), both can be used simultaneously.
So, I'm well aware of the rule "The GM is always right," and I agree with the rulings you guys have given, that the two feats should stack due to the wording which doesn't exclude either feat if using the other one. Despite this point, my GM refuses to consider the possibility that I would be right. Any advice on changing his mind without seeming like I'm completely obsessing over this? I'm planning on playing a ranger for my next character, if it comes to that, and would like to be as evenly matched with the sorcerer and fighter as I can.
He has given me two reasons for not allowing it: the first, he says, is the same reason you don't get two attacks when combining a speed weapon and the haste spell, even though those both specifically mention that they don't stack, being identical magical effects, and there is no such limitation mentioned in either feat. He also says they each use a full round action to use, rather than the actual wording both in the CRB and on the SRD, saying that they can be applied "When using a full attack action".
His second reason is because it would make Rangers "totally unfair". At 7th level (where we are currently), a Ranger would be able to fire off 4 arrows over 3 attacks, with each attack at a -2 penalty to hit. Assuming I have a +2 longbow with Weapon Focus and a 20 Dex, thats a +13/+13/+8, which are the same bonuses my 2h fighter has while using Power Attack, but with an additional attack. The fighter, however, hits for 2d6+16 per hit, so a minimum of 18 damage. The ranger's bow deals 1d8+2. So over 4 arrows, that's a maximum of 40 damage, as opposed to the fighter, who dishes out 25 damage on an average hit, around 50 in a round. I really have yet to see how the Ranger is more broken than the fighter.
Any help with this issue would be greatly helpful.
Well if he says no, it is a no. By the rules however, you can.
Archery does tend to be the most powerful combat tactic, so I can see why he would want to nerf it.
It should perhaps be noted that in 3.5 they did not work together, and if your GM is a 3.5 veteran that might be where he is drawing his ruling from.
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Kithelin wrote: Any advice on changing his mind without seeming like I'm completely obsessing over this? Ask him if he's making a house rule in order to balance what he sees as an overpowered feat combination, or if that's what he thinks the rules say.
If the former, you are out of luck, and arguing will probably not help.
If the latter, you could bring a copy of your book, and show him the actual words in the feats, and he should be able to see that he's wrong.
Kithelin wrote: He has given me two reasons for not allowing it: the first, he says, is the same reason you don't get two attacks when combining a speed weapon and the haste spell Rapid Shot grants an extra attack, Manyshot has you fire two arrows on your first attack. They are not similar.
Kithelin wrote: He also says they each use a full round action to use They both say "When making a full-attack action..."
So if you are making a full-attack action, they may apply.
Kithelin wrote: His second reason is because it would make Rangers "totally unfair". So if you make a Weapon Master Fighter that specializes in archery, he would allow them to work? Each arrow at Dice+13 (+2 WeaponTraining +2 WeaponSpec +4 DeadlyAim +2 Enhancement +1 P-BS +2 Str) and better defense, too.
Four arrows at dice+2 isn't so bad.
Point out that at level 7 a fighter with Two Weapon fighting, adn Improved two weapon fighting.
A str of 18 and a dex of 17 (easiy reachable on 20 point buy at level 7).
Give him weapon focus and 2 +1 Kukris (cheaper then your +2 bow)
Attacks 4 times at +12,+12,+7,+7 and has 4 additional feats for boosting this (weapon specialization, Double Slice etc). He also gets to add ALL his damage bonus to 4 attacks.
If he used the money he saved on kukris (4k instead of 8k) to buy a "sash of the war champion" his attack goes to +13, +13, +8,+8.
Sure Archery is nice but it does not make rangers overpwoered, it is even nicer for a warrior.
Thanks everyone. I'll be sure to bring the issue up before the next gaming session, since that just tends to lead to an hours long argument. These have been some excellent points, but I fear it may just be time for a different GM. I've been playing for around 10 years now (slightly more impressive if you realize I'm only 19), and the GM (early 40s) still doesn't think I know how to play the game. It's starting to become an environment which causes more stress than it relieves.
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