Lycanthrope shapeshifting

[Anoze]

How do you get around the fact that items do not get larger when a Werebear or Weretiger transform? Do you alter the rule as homebrew? Do you force the PC to choose between forms until they can get magic items that changes with them (if so what type of bonus would you apply for that ability, +1/+2...)? Do you change the Werebear or Weretiger so that the base animal has the young template and thus is one size smaller? Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated as well.

[Kierato]

I would say size changing armor would be +1, belts, rings, cloaks, etc change size on their own. Beyond that, I would not house-rule anything.

[Anoze]

What about weapons? Obviously using the same weapon as before they transformed doesn't hurt anything, but if they wanted to have a weapon that increased in size as they did would you make it +1 as well?

[LazarX]

Anoze wrote:

How do you get around the fact that items do not get larger when a Werebear or Weretiger transform? Do you alter the rule as homebrew? Do you force the PC to choose between forms until they can get magic items that changes with them (if so what type of bonus would you apply for that ability, +1/+2...)? Do you change the Werebear or Weretiger so that the base animal has the young template and thus is one size smaller? Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated as well.

Lycanthropy has it's downsides.. among them the tendency to "Hulk" out of whatever you are wearing when you change. IF the PC elects to be a lycanthrope, that's part of the price.

[Kierato]

In 3.5 it was a +1, so yes. I would prefer my own claws and fangs, personally.

[Pirate]

Yar.

Items DO change size when a lycan changes size.

It's change shape SQ states:

Werewolf:

All lycanthropes have three forms—a humanoid form, an animal form, and a hybrid form. Equipment does not meld with the new form between humanoid and hybrid form, but does between those forms and animal form.

The Change Shape Universal Monster Rules gives some more detail:

change shape:

...The creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category Smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, ... Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their descriptions.

This references the Polymorph spell. The Polymorph School of magic has this to say:

polymorph:

...When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. ... If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

So items (magic and mundane) do meld with your form when going animal, and DO change size to fit your new size if your humanoid size is different than your hybrid size.

~P

[Kierato]

Pirate is correct, IMO. There is nothing stating a lycanthropes items do not change with it like in 3.5 You learn something new every day.

[The_Minstrel_Wyrm]

And I could be mistaken, but with Bestiary 2 it would seem that the werebear and weretiger are no longer Large when in hybrid form. It looks like they are now Medium. So, this would seem to eliminate the weapon-sizing rule. Yes?

Dean

And by "rule" I mean question. ;)

[Anoze]

As would I, but I am not sure if that is what my player wants to do so I wanted to cover all bases.

What do you think of Werebear monk? As a DM I think its a little over powered. +8 to natural armor with the wisdom bonus to AC and decent dex would make them impossible to hit, the DR would probably nullify anything that does hit and they would be doing 2d6 damage from level one if they took Improved Natural Attack (which is what my player had in mind I believe) with two attacks per round.

LazarX, I realize they do, but I don't want to discourage my players from thinking outside the box. Forcing them to buy new armor everytime they transform would just be too much in my opinion; especially if they were afflicted and couldn't control when they did. I was thinking that making them purchase armor that shifts with them, as opposed to light fortification or something comparable, would be a good middle ground.

[Anoze]

The_Minstrel_Wyrm wrote:

And I could be mistaken, but with Bestiary 2 it would seem that the werebear and weretiger are no longer Large when in hybrid form. It looks like they are now Medium. So, this would seem to eliminate the weapon-sizing rule. Yes?

Dean

I believe that is a mistake. In the Beastiary it states whichever is larger, base creature or base animal, is the size of the hybrid form. And since the grizzly bear and tiger are both large then the lycanthropes hybrid form would be as well.

[The_Minstrel_Wyrm]

Hmm... Anoze, you are right about that... but I guess I just forgot/didn't think about it since Bestiary 2 has them Medium. Hmmm... very interesting.

[Kierato]

Well remember, You're probably looking at at least a +4 ecl (assuming black bear), also, how are you getting 2d6 at first level? You cannot take Improved Natural Attack with monk unarmed strikes, and a were-bears claws don't do that much damage even with INA.

[Anoze]

Yeah I had the a discuss about it last night.

link

[Pirate]

Yar.

*motions to my post above*

(equipment changes according to your form)

Also, if your worried about the power, you as the DM have the right (or at least need to make the decision on whether you will or not) to assume control of the PC when he's in hybrid and animal form. Lycanthrope is a curse, and the character's actions while transformed should be unpredictable and detrimental to those around him... unless of course your running a vampires & werewolves kind of game where the whole party are Lycans.

The PRD (not the srd, but the prd, published by paizo) says this at the bottom of the Lycanthrope entry:

prd wrote:

When a PC becomes a lycanthrope, you as the GM have a choice to make. In most cases, you should take control of the PC's actions whenever he is in hybrid or animal form—lycanthropy shouldn't be a method to increase a PC's power, after all, and what an afflicted lycanthrope does while in animal or hybrid form is often at odds with what the character would actually want. If a player wants to play a lycanthrope, he should play a natural lycanthrope and follow the guidelines for playing a character of a powerful race.

~P

[Anoze]

I was pulling that damage from the table on page 58 of the core rulebook. Since the hybrid form is large it would do 1d8 base. And with Improved Natural Attack it would act as one size category larger which would be 2d6 I would think. I didn't know about not being able to take that feat as a monk. Why can't they take the feat? Do their fists and feet and whatever else they attack with not count as a natural attack?

[The_Minstrel_Wyrm]

Anoze wrote:

Yeah I had the a discuss about it last night.

link

Anoze... thanks for the link. That helps explain things.

[Anoze]

Sorry about that Pirate, I didn't see your previous post. Thanks for pointing those things out. I do agree with you about discussing who controls their character while they are transformed. I haven't decided if I will allow them to be a natural lycanthrope or not either, so I think that would be first before deciding who controls their toon.

[Name Violation]

Anoze wrote:

I was pulling that damage from the table on page 58 of the core rulebook. Since the hybrid form is large it would do 1d8 base. And with Improved Natural Attack it would act as one size category larger which would be 2d6 I would think. I didn't know about not being able to take that feat as a monk. Why can't they take the feat? Do their fists and feet and whatever else they attack with not count as a natural attack?

The developers have mentioned no INA + monk combo. It worked in 3.5, but not in PF.

[Anoze]

Name Violation wrote:

Anoze wrote:

I was pulling that damage from the table on page 58 of the core rulebook. Since the hybrid form is large it would do 1d8 base. And with Improved Natural Attack it would act as one size category larger which would be 2d6 I would think. I didn't know about not being able to take that feat as a monk. Why can't they take the feat? Do their fists and feet and whatever else they attack with not count as a natural attack?

The developers have mentioned no INA + monk combo. It worked in 3.5, but not in PF.

Good to know. Would you happen to have a link of your source?

[Pirate]

Yar.

I havn't checked any updated printings, erratas, or FAQs yet, however, there were several threads a while ago that discussed this heavily.

This is just one of them where a developer (James Jacobs) chimed in (3rd post) and said so.

LINKY

~P

Edit: just to be stupidly thorough, here's another one from 2009 where JJ explains it a bit better. LINK (7th post)

~P

[Anoze]

Pirate wrote:

Yar.

I havn't checked any updated printings, erratas, or FAQs yet, however, there were several threads a while ago that discussed this heavily.

This is just one of them where a developer (James Jacobs) chimed in (3rd post) and said so.

LINKY

~P

You come through again. Thank you kindly.

[CalebTGordan]

I had natural lycanthropes in large enough numbers in a home brew game that they had their own cities and cultures. Clearly they had control of themselves when they changed, and their culture had addressed the issue that equipment does not change sizes with them.

To fix this issue, I had specialized clothing that would stretch and refit itself to the wearer when they shifted. This was done by a series of knots that would hold tight enough even with combat, but if the wearer changes sizes they slip and let the clothing refit. When the wearer shrinks in size, the knots can moved back into position with a minutes worth of work.

Armor could also be fit with these knots, but only leather, studded leather, chain shirt, hide and chain mail. Metal armors are too rigid, and would end up being too awkward.

[LazarX]

Anoze wrote:

As would I, but I am not sure if that is what my player wants to do so I wanted to cover all bases.

What do you think of Werebear monk? As a DM I think its a little over powered. +8 to natural armor with the wisdom bonus to AC and decent dex would make them impossible to hit, the DR would probably nullify anything that does hit and they would be doing 2d6 damage from level one if they took Improved Natural Attack (which is what my player had in mind I believe) with two attacks per round.

LazarX, I realize they do, but I don't want to discourage my players from thinking outside the box. Forcing them to buy new armor everytime they transform would just be too much in my opinion; especially if they were afflicted and couldn't control when they did. I was thinking that making them purchase armor that shifts with them, as opposed to light fortification or something comparable, would be a good middle ground.

1. Werebear does have a check on it's monkish ambitions... Any PC that willingly accepts the change becomes Chaotic Good in alignment. In fact outside of the wererat... all of the lycanthropes pretty much knock the player out of the lawful axis.

2. Well.. I'd like to point out that it IS supposed to be a curse and within the rules there are a couple of options. They can learn to become aware of the oncoming change and buy armor that can be tossed quickly. Accomodating playerw who want every advantage but none of the problems is a kind of box in and of itself.

[Selgard]

I'd think a lycanthrope monk would work fairly well. After you "accept the change" all you have to do is work on changing your alignment back to what you want it to be.
It shouldn't be like flipping a switch. but since it was a switch flipped to begin with I don't know that I'd force a PC to take very long getting their mind back where it was- assuming they wanted to do so.

Just keep in mind- no flurry with claws or bites.. but the stat adjustments should more than make up for that problem. (as well as having bite/claw to help overcome DR if necesssary)

-S

[LazarX]

Selgard wrote:

I'd think a lycanthrope monk would work fairly well. After you "accept the change" all you have to do is work on changing your alignment back to what you want it to be.

It shouldn't be like flipping a switch. but since it was a switch flipped to begin with I don't know that I'd force a PC to take very long getting their mind back where it was- assuming they wanted to do so.

Just keep in mind- no flurry with claws or bites.. but the stat adjustments should more than make up for that problem. (as well as having bite/claw to help overcome DR if necesssary)

-S

The only way you can "cure" your alignment problem... is by getting cured of your lyacanthropic condition. Or lets put it this way, if you're not willing to get rid of your lycanthrophy, you're not really trying to atone your way to your old alignment.

[Abraham spalding]

Great news everyone! Lycanthropes do not have alignment problems in pathfinder.

The automatic changing of alignment is gone!

[LazarX]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Great news munchkins! Lycanthropes do not have alignment problems in pathfinder.

The automatic changing of alignment is gone!

Fixed.

[Abraham spalding]

LazarX wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

Great news munchkins! Lycanthropes do not have alignment problems in pathfinder.

The automatic changing of alignment is gone!

Fixed.

I take a lot of offense and insult from your rearranging my post.

Not that I mind the basic idea in funsies -- but this specific instance upsets me.

I personally feel there is little to no reason lycanthropes should be forced into an alignment -- it doesn't fit myths, it doesn't fit the game, and it doesn't make one a munchkin.

Just because the rules do not support your position on this case doesn't mean people following the rules are munchkins.

[Shar Tahl]

I am having my girlfriend's monk that got infected by a wererat in Second Darkness to gradually change from a polite and reserved LN Tian to gradually get more selfish and devious (LE). She is excited about the roleplaying potential.

That said, I agree that forcing an alignment shift isn't listed anywhere in the PRD as part of the template. Lycanthropy

I have been using the alternate class advancement for the wererat listed in Kobold Quarterly. It is a 3 level class she takes, which at level 3, gains the full wererat form.

[LazarX]

Abraham spalding wrote:

I take a lot of offense and insult from your rearranging my post.

Not that I mind the basic idea in funsies -- but this specific instance upsets me.

I personally feel there is little to no reason lycanthropes should be forced into an alignment -- it doesn't fit myths, it doesn't fit the game, and it doesn't make one a munchkin.

Just because the rules do not support your position on this case doesn't mean people following the rules are munchkins.

Munchkins are generally very good at following and manipulating rules. The classic munchkin is essentially the ultimate min-maxing powergamer. And allowing this opens some real issues with power creep and Pathfinder.

Pathfinder has isufficient rules for running powerful characters and NO rules for handling PC's who've just bumped up their effective ECL. If lycanthropy is essentially a change with no downside, why aren't warlords forcibly converting thier foot soldiers to werewolf or even better, weretiger shock troops?

This is my main real gripe with Pathfinder, simply too many avenues are open to PC power creep with no real cost... lycanthrophy, magic item creation which ignores the lack of prerequisites, and the lack of rules support for dealing with characters who bump themselves up like this. When you remove the downsides what you basically have is another powerup after some trivialities are dealt with.

I'm sorry you feel offended. I've had this happen to me dozens of times and have learned to accept it as the price of participating on an open access message board.

[Shar Tahl]

That is what I liked about how Kobold Quarterly did it. The lycanthropy was basically it's own class that gradually changed you as you gained levels in it. With what they have listed, wererat is 3 racial levels, werewolf is 4 racial levels and werebear was 8 i think. The penalty ended up being that your saves and hit dice did not increase every level, so you ended up weaker in health and saves. I also implemented the pain option, where you had to make a DC 20 will save every time you shapechanged. Failure meant you took 1d6 damage and 1 point of CON damage.

[Abraham spalding]

I find that lycanthropy when afflicted isn't all fun and giggles.

rules wrote:

Type curse, injury; Save Fortitude DC 15 negates, Will DC 15 to avoid effects

Onset the next full moon; Frequency on the night of every full moon or whenever the target is injured

Effect: target transforms into a wolf under the GM's control until the next morning

Being afflicted means that everytime you are hit in combat you have to make the check or become the animal form under the GM's control.

Not exactly fun times in belmont high.

[Goth Guru]

The Were tiger listing still has a human sized hybrid form.
Is that going to change soon or should I go ahead and adjust it for my records?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope/wer etiger

I may keep the old version, and start PCs out with the human sized hybrid and animal form.