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The text states that this ability allows a character to re roll a failed Will save, but it also says that the character must use this ability as an immediate action after the first save attempt, but before the results are revealed.
If this ability is used before the results are revealed then how do you know you are using it to re roll a failed attempt?
The text states that this ability allows a character to re roll a failed Will save, but it also says that the character must use this ability as an immediate action after the first save attempt, but before the results are revealed.
If this ability is used before the results are revealed then how do you know you are using it to re roll a failed attempt?
Clear Mind (Ex): A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save. This power is used as an immediate action after the first save is attempted, but before the results are revealed by the GM. The barbarian must take the second result, even if it is worse. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. This power can only be used once per rage.
only says he must take the second result, dosent say he must use it to begin with
that doesn't answer the OP's question, his question is that it doesn't make since, how do you know that it is a fail save if you use it before you know the result?
The text states that this ability allows a character to re roll a failed Will save, but it also says that the character must use this ability as an immediate action after the first save attempt, but before the results are revealed.
If this ability is used before the results are revealed then how do you know you are using it to re roll a failed attempt?
Well, a one is usually a good indicator the roll is going to fail. Really, If I rolled anything 5 or less I probably would use it as well. But it is just a guessing game.
Greg
that doesn't answer the OP's question, his question is that it doesn't make since, how do you know that it is a fail save if you use it before you know the result?
it does make sense
immediate action after the first save is attempted, but before the results are revealed by the GM.
you roll a 2
odds are you failed so you activate this ability
you roll a 17
odds are you didn't fail but after the GM reveals a really hard check you kick yourself for not retrying for a 19 ;)
you roll a 12
your not sure so you reroll and get an 8, GM reveals 8 fails and 12 would have been enough ... you curse...alot.
it doesn't make sense, you cant call it a failed attempt unless you know the result, sure a 2 most likely failed but you don't know for sure.
it would make sense if they didn't say after a FAILED attempt.
i agree that what phasics said in the above post, is how it is meant to be understood. that being said its only a very mild error in the phrasing of the sentence, cant really see it causing any real problems, but that might just be me.
I would interpret the "reroll a failed try", as a line stating what the ability is used for, not as a rule to how it should be used. much like the line in smiting, saying a paladin can smite his enemy or something like that. While the "before the GM reveals if it failed", as a general rule to how this ability works.
so really not that difficult
it doesn't make sense, you cant call it a failed attempt unless you know the result, sure a 2 most likely failed but you don't know for sure.
it would make sense if they didn't say after a FAILED attempt.
if you want to get really grammatical about it
"A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save
as in he may end up re rolling a failed will save, that sentence dosen't preclude the possibility of re rolling a successful will save, it simply say he may as in he might end up re rolling a failed save
as such
after you roll your save you can re roll it as an immediate action
it "may" have been a failed save you don't know
could it be worded better yes , but it still makes sense.
I may be completely wrong, but I'm interpreting the "before the results are revealed by the GM" as the effects of failing the Will save, not whether or not you failed your save. For example:
GM: "Grognak, Will save, DC 15"
Grognak: "Oh, crap." *rolls a 2* "Damn it!"
GM: "You st-..."
Grognak: "Wait! I use my Clear Mind rage power to reroll my save!" *rolls a 20* "YES YES."
GM: "FFFFFFFFFU-"
In other words, the ability is making the assumption that you have NO idea what you are making the save for, but that you know what the DC is. It'd be more than a little cheap to be able to use the ability if I knew that I was about to get hit by a 1d6 INT drain.
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I may be completely wrong, but I'm interpreting the "before the results are revealed by the GM" as the effects of failing the Will save, not whether or not you failed your save. For example:
GM: "Grognak, Will save, DC 15"
Grognak: "Oh, crap." *rolls a 2* "Damn it!"
GM: "You st-..."
Grognak: "Wait! I use my Clear Mind rage power to reroll my save!" *rolls a 20* "YES YES."
GM: "FFFFFFFFFU-"
In other words, the ability is making the assumption that you have NO idea what you are making the save for, but that you know what the DC is. It'd be more than a little cheap to be able to use the ability if I knew that I was about to get hit by a 1d6 INT drain.
Well, that's the kicker. The GM is not supposed to say "Will save, DC 15". He says "Make a Will save". You roll and tell him the result. Then he tells you if you passed or not.
What they say above is true. You roll and get a 5, before the GM tells you if it's a pass or fail, you use your power and re-roll it (but, you can only use it once per rage, so you don't get to re-roll it again) and hope for a higher roll. The first sentence should read "A barbarian may re-roll a Will save."
Well, that's the kicker. The GM is not supposed to say "Will save, DC 15". He says "Make a Will save". You roll and tell him the result. Then he tells you if you passed or not.
What they say above is true. You roll and get a 5, before the GM tells you if it's a pass or fail, you use your power and re-roll it (but, you can only use it once per rage, so you don't get to re-roll it again) and hope for a higher roll. The first sentence should read "A barbarian may re-roll a Will save."
There's nothing RAW that says a DC cannot be divulged before the save is made; after all, a PC is obligated to divulge the save DCs for all of his abilities. I'd call it common courtesy; it makes things move more smoothly, especially in PbP (though that's a whole different story). In whatever case, the GM's playing style would be the factor here.
With that in mind, the ability's wording makes perfect sense. Of course, if I am even wronger, then I agree that it should be reworded. I just don't see how a contradiction like that could be in there for so long.
I may be completely wrong, but I'm interpreting the "before the results are revealed by the GM" as the effects of failing the Will save, not whether or not you failed your save. For example:
GM: "Grognak, Will save, DC 15"
Grognak: "Oh, crap." *rolls a 2* "Damn it!"
GM: "You st-..."
Grognak: "Wait! I use my Clear Mind rage power to reroll my save!" *rolls a 20* "YES YES."
GM: "FFFFFFFFFU-"
In other words, the ability is making the assumption that you have NO idea what you are making the save for, but that you know what the DC is. It'd be more than a little cheap to be able to use the ability if I knew that I was about to get hit by a 1d6 INT drain.
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Well, that's the kicker. The GM is not supposed to say "Will save, DC 15". He says "Make a Will save". You roll and tell him the result. Then he tells you if you passed or not.
What they say above is true. You roll and get a 5, before the GM tells you if it's a pass or fail, you use your power and re-roll it (but, you can only use it once per rage, so you don't get to re-roll it again) and hope for a higher roll. The first sentence should read "A barbarian may re-roll a Will save."
There's nothing RAW that says a DC cannot be divulged before the save is made; after all, a PC is obligated to divulge the save DCs for all of his abilities. I'd call it common courtesy; it makes things move more smoothly, especially in PbP (though that's a whole different story). In whatever case, the GM's playing style would be the factor here.
With that in mind, the ability's wording makes perfect sense. Of course, if I am even wronger, then I agree that it should be reworded. I just don't see how a contradiction like that could be in there for so long.
No there is no RAW that says it can't. But that is the spirit. Take the Example Play from the Core Rule Book:
GM: Lem, could you roll a Perception check?
Lem rolls a d20 and gets a 12. He then consults his character
sheet to find his bonus on Perception skill checks, which turns out
to be a +6.
Lem: I got an 18. What do I see?
So, at this point. If Lem had rolled a 5, he could have said "ew, lemme re-roll that".
It's standard practice that the Players have to reveal their DCs to the Gm, but not for the GM to reveal his. Thus is the power of the GM. :)
Grammar nazi mode on ;)
If take the description of ability literally if you succeeded on initial roll and decided to reroll anyway you won't fail. Why? Because the ability allows barbarian to reroll failed roll ("A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save"). If you succeeded on the first attempt you didn't meet conditions for using this ability in the first place and thus reroll is not legal and cannot replace your initial roll.
Grammar nazi mode off.
Myself, when it came to abilities that grant reroll I always rejected the "before GM reveals the results". It cutted down usefulness of the rerolls too much in my opinion and if I allow players the abilities that grant rerolls the whole purpose of them is to give another chance and succeeding.
The text states that this ability allows a character to re roll a failed Will save, but it also says that the character must use this ability as an immediate action after the first save attempt, but before the results are revealed.
If this ability is used before the results are revealed then how do you know you are using it to re roll a failed attempt?
Well, a one is usually a good indicator the roll is going to fail. Really, If I rolled anything 5 or less I probably would use it as well. But it is just a guessing game.
Greg
Even if you roll a 1, you still haven't failed until the result is announced. In fact, just rolling a 1 invalidates this ability because rolling a 1 automatically reveals that you failed therefore you can't reroll. There is, as written, no way to use this ability.
Even if you roll a 1, you still haven't failed until the result is announced. In fact, just rolling a 1 invalidates this ability because rolling a 1 automatically reveals that you failed therefore you can't reroll. There is, as written, no way to use this ability.The text states that this ability allows a character to re roll a failed Will save, but it also says that the character must use this ability as an immediate action after the first save attempt, but before the results are revealed.
If this ability is used before the results are revealed then how do you know you are using it to re roll a failed attempt?
Well, a one is usually a good indicator the roll is going to fail. Really, If I rolled anything 5 or less I probably would use it as well. But it is just a guessing game.
Greg
Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20
comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure, and
the spell may cause damage to exposed items (see Items
Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). A natural 20 (the
d20 comes up 20) is always a success.
Rolling a one is about all this ability is good for. The ability even specifies that it has to be a failed Will save.
Even if you roll a 1, you still haven't failed until the result is announced. In fact, just rolling a 1 invalidates this ability because rolling a 1 automatically reveals that you failed therefore you can't reroll. There is, as written, no way to use this ability.The text states that this ability allows a character to re roll a failed Will save, but it also says that the character must use this ability as an immediate action after the first save attempt, but before the results are revealed.
If this ability is used before the results are revealed then how do you know you are using it to re roll a failed attempt?
Well, a one is usually a good indicator the roll is going to fail. Really, If I rolled anything 5 or less I probably would use it as well. But it is just a guessing game.
Greg
Rolling a one is about all this ability is good for. The ability even specifies that it has to be a failed Will save.Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20
comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure, and
the spell may cause damage to exposed items (see Items
Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). A natural 20 (the
d20 comes up 20) is always a success.
But when you roll a 1, you automatically know, by the rules, the result is a failure and therefore you cannot enact the ability before knowing you failed and therefore the ability is NEVER usable.
Again, this is assuming that "the result" refers to whether or not you passed the save. As I pointed out above, the ability's context makes much more sense if it refers to "the result" of failing the save, such as ability damage.
I am certainly glad I asked this question, seems to have generated a lot controversy.
Maybe a developer might grace us with some info.
Like an "errata."
it would be as simple as removing reroll a failed save to reroll the saving throw
I am pretty sure this is INTENDED to work only before the player knows whether he has failed or not, however, I do want to bring this discussion back up because it just became relevant to me. The wording of the ability is misleading and contradictory, if you don't play word games with it. (IE: If you swap out the word 'may' for 'could' it would make more sense.)
Also, I have played with certain DMs who do in fact rule similarly to what Cartigan's pointed out above: a natural 1 on a save can't be rerolled because you know the result. Same goes for a 20, but that's a corner case.
Is this last bit something left open to interpretation, or is there a more official way to handle it? I let my players take rerolls where applicable, so long as I don't specifically tell them they failed or describe the effects of their failure to them.
I am pretty sure this is INTENDED to work only before the player knows whether he has failed or not, however, I do want to bring this discussion back up because it just became relevant to me. The wording of the ability is misleading and contradictory, if you don't play word games with it. (IE: If you swap out the word 'may' for 'could' it would make more sense.)
If you approach it with an assumption of how you think it is intended to work it might prove contradictory. If we just break down the rule and analyze the pieces we should be able to figure out what it does say. What was intended does not matter (for pure 'rules-as-written' arguments).
Clear Mind (Ex): A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save. This power is used as an immediate action after the first save is attempted, but before the results are revealed by the GM. The barbarian must take the second result, even if it is worse. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. This power can only be used once per rage.
The first sentence: "A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save."
"A barbarian may..." means the barbarian has a choice, free will (so to speak) to select to use the ability or not, i.e. he is not forced to use it after the first failed Will save.
"A failed Will save" means this ability works only on failed Will saves. You may not choose to re-roll a successful will save.
Now, the second sentence says "before the results are revealed by the GM." There are two ways to interpret this phrase: 1) before success or failure is determined or 2) before the effects are revealed.
If we use the first interpretation, "before success or failure is determined," then you won't know if it fails or not, so you have no idea if the ability can be used; except in the case of a natural 1 which is always a failure, but since you know the "result" you can't use the ability either. You can never use the ability. Reductio ad absurdum.
If we use the second interpretation, "before the effects are revealed," the barbarian will know which rolls are failed Will saves and which are not. This allows the barbarian to use the ability because the condition, i.e. a failed Will save, is known. This avoids the paradox created by the first interpretation. The "result", i.e. the effect of this failure is still not know to the barbarian.
So, we have two equally valid ways of reading this ability. In one case, you can never actually use the ability (without otherwise adding or modifying the rules), in the second case, it works just fine. Which is the correct interpretation.