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So, what do you all think? Can the Arcane Archivist fulfill the requirements for mystic theurge?
Arcane Archivist (Su): Your experience with lore-filled
tomes has granted you the ability to cast arcane spells as
if they were on your spell list. Once per day, you can cast
a spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were on
your list of spells known. The spell consumes a spell slot
one level higher than the level of the spell. You must have
a spellbook containing the spell to cast it in this way, and
the spell is erased when you complete the casting. You
must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.
Mystic Theurge requires:
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level
arcane spells
The oracle class can fulfill the divine spell requirement. Bolded the section I think is most relevant from the ability.
If it functions, you could effectively take 11 oracle levels, one sorcerer level, and 8 mystic theurge levels. You'd end up with 9th lvl oracle spells and 4th level sorcerer spells. If you went wizard, you could nab 5th level spells, but you'd need to stack some int as well.
Also, forgive me if this has been beaten into the ground already :p I did a quick search and nothing came up so...
And yes, I know this is cheese of the cheesiest kind. But hey, more cleric buffing can't hurt. Right? :p
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I'm not aware of any official opinion on this, but my take is that just because you can select spells from the wizard list, does not mean you cast arcane spells. It merely adds the selected spell to the list of spells you can cast. All of your casting is still done divinely. This is similar in concept to a Bard. Even though a bard has Cure Light Wounds on his spell list, all spells are still cast as arcane magic. I would rule that, no, the Lore mystery does not grant you early entry into Mystic Theurge
even if you could take MT in this manner, youre not gonna benefit from it in any way. your divine spells would go up, youd lose out on arcane, and youd lose out on your oracle powers. whats the point of doing this even if you could, which you cant?
So, what do you all think? Can the Arcane Archivist fulfill the requirements for mystic theurge?
Arcane Archivist (Su): Your experience with lore-filled
tomes has granted you the ability to cast arcane spells as
if they were on your spell list. Once per day, you can cast
a spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were on
your list of spells known. The spell consumes a spell slot
one level higher than the level of the spell. You must have
a spellbook containing the spell to cast it in this way, and
the spell is erased when you complete the casting. You
must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.Mystic Theurge requires:
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level
arcane spellsThe oracle class can fulfill the divine spell requirement. Bolded the section I think is most relevant from the ability.
If it functions, you could effectively take 11 oracle levels, one sorcerer level, and 8 mystic theurge levels. You'd end up with 9th lvl oracle spells and 4th level sorcerer spells. If you went wizard, you could nab 5th level spells, but you'd need to stack some int as well.
Also, forgive me if this has been beaten into the ground already :p I did a quick search and nothing came up so...
And yes, I know this is cheese of the cheesiest kind. But hey, more cleric buffing can't hurt. Right? :p
The Mystic Theurge class advances arcane caster levels, and since the Oracle does not grant arcane caster levels even though you can cast an arcane spell you would only go up in divine caster levels which is what you are doing anyway.
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Pretty much what others said- number one you wouldn't qualify for Mystic Theurge any 'earlier', because Oracle 4/Sorcerer 4 can already qualify at 9th level, and is already a bad option. Number two even if the ruling is that Lore Oracles qualify in this manner, the additional arcane spellcaster levels you get from Mystic Theurge apply to the arcane class you used to qualify for it. The class you used to qualify is ____ (no input), thus you don't gain half the benefit from Mystic Theurge anyway.
There was a similar thread a bit ago about pure Rogues using the Major Magic Rogue Talent to qualify for Eldrich Knight. You probably *could* do this, but then the spell levels EK provides are wasted, as they don't apply to you.
Mystic Theurge looks good on paper, but is actually really hard to pull off as anything other than a buff/heal toolbox. The best option is still Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge.
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and is already a bad option
[threadjack] Sorry to derail this thread, but I have to comment on this. It irritates me when posters give their opinion on the quality of a character build when the thread is not an opinion question. In this case, the OP asked a technical question regarding a game mechanic. Numerous posters replied and the answer is consistent. However, under what guidelines is a build considered "bad?" Is is because it is not optimized for greatest "roll" playing benefit? Maybe, just maybe, the "role" playing concept of the character is what the player enjoys most and just because he might be a bit underpowered, does not make it a "bad" build. He might have a very well thought out back story that makes much more sense if the character advances as a Mystic Theurge. I, personally, enjoy the concept of a MT even though they are lacking in the power level of equivalent single-class characters of the same character level.[/threadjack]
I have contemplated the idea of an Oracle/Sorcerer/MT, which initially sounds both interesting and stat-wise sound (only need CHA). But sadly, Oracles and Sorcs both mitigate their reduced casting with class abilities, and then, lagging 4 levels on both fronts leaves you with a near useless character IMO.
Mechanically, I would allow OP's build, as losing all class abilities and extra spells from 11+ to get some minor sorcery abilities would not break the game in any way.
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Yeah, folks tend to get up-in-arms over this, which I don't really understand. Rules forums means looking for rules based opinions. Advice forums means is my build the hottzness? :p
Be happy folks.
Twilight, the part I bolded says straight out that you get the ability to cast arcane spells.
Fnipernackle, you lose one level of oracle casting, a handful of bonus arcane spells, and one curse-related bonus in exchange for 9ish first level spells, 9ish second level spells, 9ish third level spells, and 7ish fourth level spells, which can be used to cast divine spells instead, or used to give yourself some more versatility. And, remember, all those spells can be cure spells.
Wraithstrike, note the application of a single arcane caster level in the form of sorcerer or possibly wizard. That is the arcane class being advanced.
Ninten, the major weakness of the mystic theurge is being so far behind the spell level that a straight caster would have. The benefit is having a bunch more weaker spells, which generally doesn't make a fair trade. The concept I presented maintains a main, primary caster class while providing extra lower level spells from the secondary, arcane class. The main class (oracle) suffers significantly less than the standard mystic theurge build.
And with a couple applications of "extra revelation", you can have everything you want from the revelation list when you're ready to stop taking oracle levels.
A Lore Oracle with the haunted curse loses out on getting reverse gravity from the curse. He gets everything else the curse offers. From the Lore table, he loses out on the following free bonus spells:
mass owl’s
wisdom (12th), vision (14th), moment of prescience (16th), time
stop (18th).
He also misses the final revelation, and one level of oracle spellcasting progression. In return, he gets to cast 4th or 5th (depending on sorc or wizard) arcane spells, and can use up to 4th level spells for the other class list.
But the main point is whether the wording of the archivist abilities allows it to fulfill the wording of the theurge requirements :p
Wraithstrike, note the application of a single arcane caster level in the form of sorcerer or possibly wizard. That is the arcane class being advanced.
The MT class says "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class".You don't have an existing arcane class to level which is why it is not mechanically legal. If it just said your arcane spells increased that might be a way to work a loophole in.
Wraithstrike, note the application of a single arcane caster level in the form of sorcerer or possibly wizard. That is the arcane class being advanced.
The MT class says "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class".You don't have an existing arcane class to level which is why it is not mechanically legal. If it just said your arcane spells increased that might be a way to work a loophole in.
He has a lvl of sorcerer to advance though...
He has a lvl of sorcerer to advance though...
Wraithstrike, note the application of a single arcane caster level in the form of sorcerer or possibly wizard. That is the arcane class being advanced.
The MT class says "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class".You don't have an existing arcane class to level which is why it is not mechanically legal. If it just said your arcane spells increased that might be a way to work a loophole in.
Then RAI no, but RAW yes. :)
the power says you get to cast them as if they were on your spell list. ay spell on an oracles spell list is divine. just as mentioned earlier bards can cast cure light wounds but it's an arcane spell.
heaven oracles get wizard spells added to their. spell list but do not qualify for mystic the urge because the spells are divine.
the power says you get to cast them as if they were on your spell list. ay spell on an oracles spell list is divine. just as mentioned earlier bards can cast cure light wounds but it's an arcane spell.
heaven oracles get wizard spells added to their. spell list but do not qualify for mystic the urge because the spells are divine.
True, just like some clerics have divine spells in their domain list. I got caught slipping.
True, just like some clerics have divine spells in their domain list. I got caught slipping.the power says you get to cast them as if they were on your spell list. ay spell on an oracles spell list is divine. just as mentioned earlier bards can cast cure light wounds but it's an arcane spell.
heaven oracles get wizard spells added to their. spell list but do not qualify for mystic the urge because the spells are divine.
well most clerics have divine spells I. their domains :p but I get what you mention
Well the text is too vague to outright accept or reject it. The text does state, that you have to choose which arcane class you add the MT levels to. I would normally have thought that it had to be a class, which qualify you for MT, but it doesn't seem to be RAW.
Generally I would say that it isn't allowed, to use class abilities to qualify for MT, if it isn't spell-casting. Supernatural, spell-like and extraordinary abilities aren't the same as being able to cast spells.
In your example, I am not really sure what to think. I was inclined to allow it, but a few things didn't really work for me.
Firstly, what is it really that you miss out on with the build? You lose revelations at lvl 15 and 19, as well as bonus spells known. Compared to other oracles the lore ones, doesn't miss that much, as only brain drain and whirlwind lesson has effect that evolve at levels higher than 11. On the other hand, you gain a buckload of lower level spells, which could be transformed into cure spells.
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, does it make sense flavour-wise? The arcane archivist ability allows you through casting arcane spells through understanding of lorefilled tomes and using spell books. I can't see why this should help you become a better sorcerer. Do it as a lore oracle/wizard, and I can see it happening.
Well the text is too vague to outright accept or reject it. The text does state, that you have to choose which arcane class you add the MT levels to. I would normally have thought that it had to be a class, which qualify you for MT, but it doesn't seem to be RAW.
Generally I would say that it isn't allowed, to use class abilities to qualify for MT, if it isn't spell-casting. Supernatural, spell-like and extraordinary abilities aren't the same as being able to cast spells.
In your example, I am not really sure what to think. I was inclined to allow it, but a few things didn't really work for me.
Firstly, what is it really that you miss out on with the build? You lose revelations at lvl 15 and 19, as well as bonus spells known. Compared to other oracles the lore ones, doesn't miss that much, as only brain drain and whirlwind lesson has effect that evolve at levels higher than 11. On the other hand, you gain a buckload of lower level spells, which could be transformed into cure spells.Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, does it make sense flavour-wise? The arcane archivist ability allows you through casting arcane spells through understanding of lorefilled tomes and using spell books. I can't see why this should help you become a better sorcerer. Do it as a lore oracle/wizard, and I can see it happening.
the words "existing arcane spell class point to actual class levels".
the words "existing arcane spell class point to actual class levels".
I am not sure i got your point right... :)
As class levels are definatly a necessity to gain the benefit, as you mention, I can't see this as clearly in the requirements.
By RAI, I don't think it should be possible. The prestige class is written as to combine two spell casting classes, in which you have a certain degree of training. The primary drawback of the prestige class is getting some levels behind, as you have to multiclass at first.
I think the class abilities of levels 12 through 20 is better in all ways than 9 levels of sorcerer spellcasting without any class abilities.
Oracle loses bonus spells from mystery, sorcerer loses bonus spells from bloodline, and your revelations stop advancing, robbing you of capstones.
What do you gain with 9 levels of sorcerer? Lv4 wiz/sorc spells at best, at such a low caster level it is not even worth mentioning. You will never pierce SR, and anything that dispels will almost automatically make their checks.
So, sure, if you want to just have the casting power of a lv19 oracle without the class powers beyond 11, in return for some minor sorcery, I would allow it.
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That kind of walks into another interesting question :p
It seems to me from the wording of the Arcane Archivist that when you use it to cast an arcane spell, it's an arcane spell and not a divine spell, despite the fact that it consumes a higher level spell slot.
Really, the most painful thing you lose is one casting level from the oracle, since it's already progressing slower than the cleric. And that's just to give you an arcane class to progress.
Still, compared to a cleric, at 15th level the cleric has 8th level spells. The oracle/sorc/MT has 7th level spells. It's survivable, being a one level gap. I think once you lose two spell levels, the build is no longer effective as a primary caster. One, we can manage a bit.
As far as class abilities, ect., the requirements don't specify a particular source. This is why things like racial abilities can help creatures qualify for prestige classes.
2nd level divine spells and 2nd level arcane spells. This phrasing has been something that folks have been trying to work around forever, using cheese like spell-like abilities, and feats that allow you to prep an arcane spell in a divine spell slot, or vice versus.
The, well, somewhat balancing aspect of this build is that the revelation that makes this happen requires an 11th level oracle. So you're not trying to fit cleric or druid with wizard. You have to take the slower progression and limited spell list of the oracle as your main caster class. You will never hit the capstone on mystic theurge, or the oracles capstone revelation. *though I don't give much weight to those since most campaigns don't hit 20th level anyhow*
And in return for slowing your big spells just a bit, you get to buff everyone with bears str, bull's endurance, eagle's splendor, and owl's wisdom a few more times.
Trading those spells for healing spells won't be very effective in-combat, but it'll help you with topping the party off post-encounter. Or you can keep those arcane spells and add a few more protective and utility spells to your list. The offensive spells won't be worth much, but that's not a bad thing.