Ok, so simple question is... If one was going to upgrade the Sunblade what would the baseline cost start at. Would it be like upgrading a +2 weapon? A +4?
Thank you.
Tricky question. The way I see it, every specific weapon/armor has its base cost, which is the weapon of the same type and enhancmenet. In this case that would be 8335, meaning that rest of its abilities cost 42 000.
The way I do it, I treat those specific abilities the same as abilities for armor that just increase the cost, not the actual enhancement (Shadow, Silk etc).
Now, I really don't know what would happen if you would want to add a +1 enhancement (making it a +3 sword) and how would that affect the ability that it strikes as a +4 weapon against evil creatures (don't think it would become a +5) or a Bane enhancmenet against some subtype of evil creatures...
But for a +2 Flaming Sunblade, I'd just say that you have to pay 10 000 gold (the cost difference between a +2 and +3 weapon).
Rules forum question... ekkk
humm, if it was me,
You are looking at a +2 bastar sword with a (almost like) bane effect.
Price starts out at 50,000 + 335 gold which i assume is for the masterwork sword.
The sword is stuffed with lots of effects, so i would not treat it like a + weapon scale increase in and off itself. Instead treat it as a + gold cost effect to be added to a normal magic weapon. The Bonuse (+4) is working like a bane weapon special ability for the most part, but all special ability can/should be lump together as a + number to gold cost for easy figuring out, if they do not follow standard rules. (which the sunblade does not).
So, would require sunblade to be on a minimum of +2 or greater weapon to start. ((Would not normal require this for most specific weapons, due to being able to easy break the special ability down, but that is a long effect list. If you can not break it down easily, (due to non-standard abilitys), then lump it together, and treat it as a requirement for the Sun effect.))
........
The difference between a +2 to +3 normal weapon is (8,000 - 18,000) = 10,000 gold.
So if you want a +3 Sunblade would add in 10,000 gold to the cost.
The difference between a +2 to 4 normal weapon is (8,000 - 32,000) = 24,000 gold.
So if you wanted a +4 Sunblade would add in 24,000 gold to the cost.
Chart
50,000 + 10,000 + 335 = 60,335 gold for a +3 sunblade....(+5) vs evil
50,000 + 24,000 + 335 = 74,335 gold for a +4 sunblade....(+5) vs evil.. (+5 is max bonus allowed in my games).
........
Anyway this is how i would do it, figure it out.
50,000 + 10,000 + 335 = 60,335 gold for a +3 sunblade....(+5) vs evil
50,000 + 24,000 + 335 = 74,335 gold for a +4 sunblade....(+5) vs evil.. (+5 is max bonus allowed in my games).
Problem is, the description of Sunblade states that it strikes as a +4 weapon against evil creatures. Even if it is a +3 Sunblade, the description doesn't change, it still strikes as a +4 weapon.
The same difference is between Greater Magic Weapon and Bane enhancement. GMW makes weapon become a +n weapon, whereas Bane specifically ADDS a +2.
The wording of Sublade implies the former case.
50,000 + 10,000 + 335 = 60,335 gold for a +3 sunblade....(+5) vs evil
50,000 + 24,000 + 335 = 74,335 gold for a +4 sunblade....(+5) vs evil.. (+5 is max bonus allowed in my games).Problem is, the description of Sunblade states that it strikes as a +4 weapon against evil creatures. Even if it is a +3 Sunblade, the description doesn't change, it still strikes as a +4 weapon.
The same difference is between Greater Magic Weapon and Bane enhancement. GMW makes weapon become a +n weapon, whereas Bane specifically ADDS a +2.
The wording of Sublade implies the former case.
True, much like a +1 bane weapon works as a +3 weapon.
This is why i do not try to brake the 50,000 down into different parts (for each ability), but instead look at this as the base cost (as a whole)... for special ability, which the +4 bonus is vs evil.
The reason i use the +2 as the start number is because vs Neutral or good creatures... it is a +2 weapon. Which i consider to be the base number that you need to increase.
So would anyone say that the base weapon is a +2 with an ability equivalent of bane (the +4 vs evil)?
Making the final weapon a total of +3 with the light ability being equivalent to the shadow or energy resistant abilities of armor?
Thus if I wanted to add Keen to my Sunblade it would cost 14,000 or 7,000 if you are doing the work yourself.
There really is no need to increase the weapon to +5 unless your using the + bonus to add in an extra effect that is +bonus related like those listed on page 469 "Table 15-9 Melee Weapon Special Abilities".
So would anyone say that the base weapon is a +2 with an ability equivalent of bane (the +4 vs evil)?
Making the final weapon a total of +3 with the light ability being equivalent to the shadow or energy resistant abilities of armor?
Thus if I wanted to add Keen to my Sunblade it would cost 14,000 or 7,000 if you are doing the work yourself.
Don't really know how you came by 14 000. If you wanted a Keen sunblade, that would make its base a +3 weapon, which costs 18 000. You already have a +2 weapon, meaning you need to pay the difference, ie 10 000, or 5000 if you do the work yourself.
So would anyone say that the base weapon is a +2 with an ability equivalent of bane (the +4 vs evil)?
Making the final weapon a total of +3 with the light ability being equivalent to the shadow or energy resistant abilities of armor?
Thus if I wanted to add Keen to my Sunblade it would cost 14,000 or 7,000 if you are doing the work yourself.
Keen on table 15-9, Melee Weapon Special ability is listed as a +1 bonus.
......
So A Keen +2 Sunblade (+4 vs evil) =
50,000 + 10,000 + 335 gold = Total cost 60,335 gold Sale price
To make it from Scratch (1/2 cost)
25,000 + 5,000 + 335 gold = Toal creation cost 30,355 gold.
To add the Keen effect to an existing sword ((Assuming the DM allows the Adding New Abilities as listed on page 553)).
+5,000 gold more if you do it yourself.... or +10,000 Retail Price
Don't really know how you came by 14 000. If you wanted a Keen sunblade, that would make its base a +3 weapon, which costs 18 000. You already have a +2 weapon, meaning you need to pay the difference, ie 10 000, or 5000 if you do the work yourself.So would anyone say that the base weapon is a +2 with an ability equivalent of bane (the +4 vs evil)?
Making the final weapon a total of +3 with the light ability being equivalent to the shadow or energy resistant abilities of armor?
Thus if I wanted to add Keen to my Sunblade it would cost 14,000 or 7,000 if you are doing the work yourself.
I was thinking that the weapon was a +3 already (+2 base, and then another +1 for the banelike ability) so increasing it to a total of +4 would be the 14.
But you are saying that you think it would be as if you are increasing it from a +2 to a +3?
I think the final incarnation of the weapon would be to increase it with Keen, Merciless, and possibly Axiomatic or Holy.
Yes, but remember that each of those cost money, and the finally bonus can not exceed +10 bonus AND/OR can not exceed 200,000 (retail price) gp in price.
So you have two caps on what you can do: Can not exceed +10 total bonus. Can not exceed 200,000 gp (retail price) cost in price.
Anything beyond that is outside the current rules, and goes into EPIC weapon, (god), or Artifact territory.
Right, so if you add Keen, Merciless and axiomatic or holy that is increasing the bonus by a total of +4, thus if the weapon is less than a +4 you might even be able to add Holy and axiomatic.
This is why I am trying to figure out where I should start as a base. I am thinking that +3 should be the baseline.
Right, so if you add Keen, Merciless and axiomatic or holy that is increasing the bonus by a total of +4, thus if the weapon is less than a +4 you might even be able to add Holy and axiomatic.
This is why I am trying to figure out where I should start as a base. I am thinking that +3 should be the baseline.
As long as the total retail price does not exceed 200,000 gold. Yes.
So does anyone disagree that the baseline should be +3 when considering where to start for upgrading?
Am I to low? to high?
We told you already, base is +2. Other abilities (including the Bane-like ability) cost 42 000 and doesn't have any other effect on the BASE weapon.
I have no idea what a Merciless enhancement is (I'll assume that you meant Merciful), meaning that base weapon would go from being a +2 Bastard Sword to a +2 Holy Keen Merciful Bastard Sword, which is a +6 weapon that costs 72 000. You payed 8000, which means you need 64 000 to upgrade it to your liking.
In total the item would cost its base 8335 (for a +2 Bastard Sword) + 64 000 (for Holy, Keen and Merciful enhancements) + 42 000 (for all other sunblade abilities), to a grand total of 114 335.
We told you already, base is +2. Other abilities (including the Bane-like ability) cost 42 000 and doesn't have any other effect on the BASE weapon.
I have no idea what a Merciless enhancement is (I'll assume that you meant Merciful), meaning that base weapon would go from being a +2 Bastard Sword to a +2 Holy Keen Merciful Bastard Sword, which is a +6 weapon that costs 72 000. You payed 8000, which means you need 64 000 to upgrade it to your liking.
In total the item would cost its base 8335 (for a +2 Bastard Sword) + 64 000 (for Holy, Keen and Merciful enhancements) + 42 000 (for all other sunblade abilities), to a grand total of 114 335.
Ok, I guess the other posts got a little confusing as to the BASE, thank you.
As for Merciless, I am sorry I was refereing to the APG ability, Menacing... had to refer to my book, I remembered the name incorrectly.
Thank you all for your help here.
Right, so if you add Keen, Merciless and axiomatic or holy that is increasing the bonus by a total of +4, thus if the weapon is less than a +4 you might even be able to add Holy and axiomatic.
This is why I am trying to figure out where I should start as a base. I am thinking that +3 should be the baseline.
Keen = +1
Merciful = +1Holy = +2
Total = +4 enchantment bonus in effects
Upgrade +2 weapon plus +4 in enchantment bonus = +6 magic weapon
+6 magic weapon vs +2 magic weapon is = +64,000 gold
50,000 + 64,000 + 335 = 114,335 gold retail price.
At this point i want to point out that PC can only spend 1/2 total wealth on a weapon with DM special approval. Otherwise, it is 1/4 total wealth suggested on page 400 of PF phb.
1/2 total wealth = 15th level when they have 240,000 starting gold.
1/4 total wealth = 18th level when they have 530,000 starting gold.
Even assuming you made the whole thing yourself (and you had the spells, skill, feat necessary)
1/2 total wealth = 13th level when they have 140,000 starting gold.
1/4 total wealth = 15th level when they have 240,000 starting gold.
Even then, a +6 bonus weapon requires the caster to be minim caster level 18 to create the item.
The Sunblade is far more then a +2 bane weapon.
When pricing weapons out, generally anything that directly impacts the stabbing should be a +bonus, and other cool features should be +gold
Sunblades can be wielded like shortswords: This may be flavor, it might be worth a +1
+2 vs normal stuff: this is our baseline enchantment
+4 vs Evil: This is equivalent to bane, Normally the bane enchantment is on a far more limited number of targets then "all evil". but we don't get the bonus dice. Call it another +1
Double damage and +crit vs undead & Negative plane creatures: This is powerful. It more then makes up for the lack of dice from the non-standered bane. Worth at least a +1, I could see it argued as +2 equivalent.
Sunlight ability: This is the first ability that is a +gold, rather then a +bonus. If you call that command word activated Daylight 1/day at the sword's CL 10 it works out to 3x10x1800/5=10,800. We'll call the slow growing aura and the need to maintain swinging a wash vs the ability to make real, live sunlight, perfect for frying vampires.
So, IMHO, it should be a +4 or a +5 weapon, with bonus features upping the cost. But at then end of the day, I'm going to notice that it is priced exactly the same as a +5 weapon, and recomend that if you want to up it from there, your next step is the price of a +6 sword (72,000gp)
Yar!
There are several ways to break down the Sunblade.
Simplest way is to assume it has an effective enhancement bonus of +5 (+2 enhancement, +3 from all it's abilities). A +5 Weapon has a price of 50 000 + base weapon, and the Sunblade has a price of 50 000 + base weapon. Basically, this means that the "Sunblade" property is a +3 bonus to it's effective enhancement bonus.
You can break each ability down into +1 each as well. Altered Bane +1, acts as a different sized weapon +1 (there was an enhancement in 3.x that did a very similar thing, and it was +1), Sunlight power +1, base enhancement bonus +2, final total = +5.
I also prefer this because it makes it more expensive to upgrade an already very powerful weapon, and limits the power of custom weapons. Otherwise I'd simply pay 42 000 gold to upgrade my effectively +10 any-weapon to a +10 sunblade. Imagine a pair of +5 keen (+1) undead-bane (+1) sunblade (+42000gp) kukri's of speed (+3). Or a +1 thundering corrosive-fiery-Icy-shocking burst sunblade falcata. Each costs 242 300 gold plus the base weapon, and is significantly more powerful than your average +10 weapon. (since the sunblade property isn’t technically “bane”, the kukri would/could be +9 auto-double damage against evil undead, plus all it’s other abilities).
However, the other above methods are also valid, but they give you a lot more power in one weapon, as just shown. It could be a +3 weapon (for the +2 enhancement and +1 for the modified bane), with the other properties costing a flat extra 32 000 gold. It could be a +4 weapon (as above and +1 for acting as a differently sized weapon) with the extra properties costing a flat 18 000 gold. Or as suggested previously (and the most cost effective and power boosting for the player), simply a +2 enhancement bonus with the other properties that make it a sunblade costing a flat 42 000 gold.
The more you can turn its properties into effective enhancement bonus' instead of flat price additions, the more you limit the upper levels of power (some would say overpower) of the weapon.
...
Just for an extra bit of information, according to the creation guidelines, a command word Daylight spell at CL10 once per day added to an item costs 10 800 gp. I have no idea how to create the other sunblade effects using these guidelines however.
~P
Edit: brutally ninja'd by Khuldar.
The Sunblade is far more then a +2 bane weapon.
When pricing weapons out, generally anything that directly impacts the stabbing should be a +bonus, and other cool features should be +gold
Sunblades can be wielded like shortswords: This may be flavor, it might be worth a +1
+2 vs normal stuff: this is our baseline enchantment
+4 vs Evil: This is equivalent to bane, Normally the bane enchantment is on a far more limited number of targets then "all evil". but we don't get the bonus dice. Call it another +1
Double damage and +crit vs undead & Negative plane creatures: This is powerful. It more then makes up for the lack of dice from the non-standered bane. Worth at least a +1, I could see it argued as +2 equivalent.
Sunlight ability: This is the first ability that is a +gold, rather then a +bonus. If you call that command word activated Daylight 1/day at the sword's CL 10 it works out to 3x10x1800/5=10,800. We'll call the slow growing aura and the need to maintain swinging a wash vs the ability to make real, live sunlight, perfect for frying vampires.
So, IMHO, it should be a +4 or a +5 weapon, with bonus features upping the cost. But at then end of the day, I'm going to notice that it is priced exactly the same as a +5 weapon, and recomend that if you want to up it from there, your next step is the price of a +6 sword (72,000gp)
After re-reading the armor and weapon section.
I would have to say that the way you listed is better.
Live and learn.
Ok, thank you all. I will treat it as a +5, honestly seems the most reasonable to me. Also means it will be some time before my character can upgrade it, but thats fine, atleast now I have a place to start.
Want to add the Trient of Warning ability to the sunblade
only cost +2,000 gold extra, and would still be only considered a +5 weapon in price.
There are a few loophole in both systems, were you can add stuff without increasing the over all Bonus, if your basing stuff on price.
Like i said, all long as your consistent in how you do it, it should all work out.