Out of curiosity, when you make a character, what is important to you?
I was reading one of the longish threads earlier, and was thinking "What would it be like to play with this person, or that person?". There are many takes on what is important in a party, RP vs optimize, and so forth.
Even around our gaming table, we see very different approaches on this. Some make quite optimized characters, while others make them more all-round and fluff-oriented.
Personally, I like to find a balance between optimization and fluff. Lately I have been playing a lot of charisma based characters, (a sorcerer and a paladin) both of them with back-story and fluff that took me hours to cook up. But I also optimize to a point, as I want to be REALLY good at my niche in the party, preferably the best in the group. But I never go for 7/20 builds (my sorcerer had Cha18 at lv1, my paladin had 16 as his highest at lv1, and only one 8 with either character as the lowest stat). I might if we ever do a 15 point buy though.
I prefer to stay the course with my class, but find that I often dip 1 level into another class to pursue fluff. My sorcerer was a dragon disciple, which pretty much equals dipping barbarian to some degree, and my paladin, who is a Tian samurai type, dipped one level of Monk).
Out of curiosity, when you make a character, what is important to you?
I was reading one of the longish threads earlier, and was thinking "What would it be like to play with this person, or that person?". There are many takes on what is important in a party, RP vs optimize, and so forth.
Even around our gaming table, we see very different approaches on this. Some make quite optimized characters, while others make them more all-round and fluff-oriented.
Personally, I like to find a balance between optimization and fluff. Lately I have been playing a lot of charisma based characters, (a sorcerer and a paladin) both of them with back-story and fluff that took me hours to cook up. But I also optimize to a point, as I want to be REALLY good at my niche in the party, preferably the best in the group. But I never go for 7/20 builds (my sorcerer had Cha18 at lv1, my paladin had 16 as his highest at lv1, and only one 8 with either character as the lowest stat). I might if we ever do a 15 point buy though.
I prefer to stay the course with my class, but find that I often dip 1 level into another class to pursue fluff. My sorcerer was a dragon disciple, which pretty much equals dipping barbarian to some degree, and my paladin, who is a Tian samurai type, dipped one level of Monk).
I like balanced characters with lots of skills, even my fighters will typically have at least a 12 INT, to get the skill bonus.
I like having characters who can identify what they're fighting based upon a knowledge roll. I really love the Archivist, and now the Inquisitor .
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I have to say that for me fluff is the most important. I generally have the character's back story thought out before I start rolling any dice. I would rather have a character that is colorful and has a life of his/her own then one that is optimized but is as three dimensional as the paper it is written on. Now I am not against optimizing characters, but I would rather have a character that is optimized and has a great back story.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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For me, roleplayability is a huge factor, but I've become jaded over my decades of gaming and now the primary motivator for characters I create is simple: "What haven't I done yet?"
I've run the gamut of character classes and archetypes, mostly favoring more "optimized" character builds over the years. Now, though, I find myself increasingly drawn to less-than-optimal character builds simply because it is both challenging and new to me.
Case in point: Currently on these boards, I am playing in 2 PbP games. In one, I am playing a fire-focused Evoker with Transmutation, Enchantment, and Illusion as prohibited schools. This is possibly the "weakest" wizard type possible, as it is essentially a pure blaster and one focused heavily on the most often-resisted energy type in the game.
In the other game, I am playing a Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Tempest with Two-Weapon Fighting. I think we all know that the math favors two-handed weapons for barbarians, but this particular character doesn't even have Power Attack. He's all about mobility and skirmishing, but he's not afraid to get up in something's face and dice it up for awhile if he thinks it'll work.
Step one: Character concept and background
Step two: Figuring out how to make it fit into a class build.
Step three: Tweaking it to help round out the party(if possible).
Step four: Face Palm when no one makes a healer ;)
I think part of the fun is figuring out how to build your concept, what class/skills/race/and mixtures there of will accurately portray the person of your concept on paper and in mechanical game play.
My two rules for a player Character are these
1. Try to fit in well with the group
2. Make sure it's a class that you are pretty sure you'll enjoy playing
Step one: Character concept and background
Step two: Figuring out how to make it fit into a class build.
Step three: Tweaking it to help round out the party(if possible).
Step four: Face Palm when no one makes a healer ;)I think part of the fun is figuring out how to build your concept, what class/skills/race/and mixtures there of will accurately portray the person of your concept on paper and in mechanical game play.
I'm with ya on steps 1-3. I skip step 4 completely. I just assume there's no healer and bring items(Healing Belts are a MUST) to take care of it myself, while still adhering to my concept. IF we end up having a healer, then bonus! lol. Surprisingly, a lot of classes can use wands of Cure Light Wounds if need be(ranger, paladin, rogue, and anyone with UMD); my rangers always carry at least one.
Step one: Figure out what the group needs
Step two: Design a concept and background for a useful character suited for the setting/Campaign
Step three: Mechanically build a useful character around said concept and background
I hate to play characters with extreme weaknesses, but also loathe characters that are so good that they over-shine everyone else. I prefer mentally capable characters regardless of role.
Out of curiosity, when you make a character, what is important to you?
Whatever's fun at the moment. As a group, we don't worry so much about how well the group meshes, but instead about what we as individuals want to play. Also, we usually don't worry too terribly much about meshing mechanics and rp - we let rp take care of itself.
For me I come up with the concept first this may be brought along by a class or other mechanics but at this point its only the spark.
Then I try flesh him out alittle so I have a better idea about what I want him to do and his role.
Then I try to find mechanics that will give this idea life, doesnt matter to me if they are optimum as such. I will take a feat or such over a more optimum feat if it fits my concept better. That being said I do try to make them as good as I can at what they do.
Then I go back and fill out all the background and fluff again as I always get more ideas when i'm building them.
As an aside even doing things this way does sometimes put me in the firing line with my group as they thing i'm too good at making characters that are optimised even though I dont set out to do so.
I find the fluff from the crunch.
If there's one thing that playing in a lot of different systems will teach you, it's the "how" of system mattering. Basically, not every idea works as well with every system, because the rules aren't there, or don't really work the way you want them to in order to realize a concept.
Therefore, I think that the best way to go about something is to pick some idea that's solidly grounded in crunch, build the fluff around that idea, then see where the rest of the crunch fills in.
I just like to make a character I think I'll enjoy. If it helps out party balance, that's just gravy.
+1.
I'm also a huge fan of those random character creation dice- one of my most memorable characters was made COMPLETELY at random.
I'll come up with two or three viable character concepts to start with. I can't say which comes first, backstory or class and skills and such since I tend to come up with all of that at once. Once in a while backstory happens first, but those are usually the most frustrating characters to create.
Once I have concepts, I will run them past the group to see what gels best. If no one else has any strong opinions about what they want to play I pick my favorite.
What's most important in that process though is definitely the story. I can make the numbers work with just about anything, but if the story isn't there I just end up switching characters again anyways.
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I find the fluff from the crunch.
If there's one thing that playing in a lot of different systems will teach you, it's the "how" of system mattering. Basically, not every idea works as well with every system, because the rules aren't there, or don't really work the way you want them to in order to realize a concept.
Therefore, I think that the best way to go about something is to pick some idea that's solidly grounded in crunch, build the fluff around that idea, then see where the rest of the crunch fills in.
Pretty much what I do...
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1. Roll for stats. (Yeah, I like to roll, not point buy. OSR, b%&&!es!)
2. Play around with the numbers and brainstorm for concepts.
3. Pick a concept. Usually has a quirk or two.
4. Mechanically design my character. If I have time, I plot out a full 20-level career path. If not, create them to whatever level I'm starting play as and work out the career path later.
I come up with an idea with fluff for a character then I optimize it and plan it out over 20 levels
Step 1: Think of character concept.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!
Ah, the Underpants Gnome business model...
Step four: Face Palm when no one makes a healer ;)
I wish this step was only a joke. Go look up the "forced to play a role in the game" thread.
Step 1: Think of character concept.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!
Step 1: Think of priest character concept.
Step 2: ???Step 3: Prophet!
Step four: Face Palm when no one makes a healer ;)I wish this step was only a joke. Go look up the "forced to play a role in the game" thread.
FINALLY got my players to step away from the "we gotta have a cleric!!!!" philosophy in the Kingmaker game I'm running.
LOL@KaeYoss
+1
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I like playing well thought-out but fairly original characters. Emphasis on things that often get overlooked.
But what bothers me more than players with hyper optimized characters, is balanced characters playing an optimized game. People put so much thought into creative backgrounds and concepts - but in-game they tend to be a well-oiled optimized machine with little care for what would be real-life concerns (Time my attack to set up flanking, kill almost everything if it opposes me, buy the right items, chose the right enemy, prefer to help party members over NPCs). It seems rare that somebody is willing to try and roleplay through novel scenarios.
FINALLY got my players to step away from the "we gotta have a cleric!!!!" philosophy in the Kingmaker game I'm running.Step four: Face Palm when no one makes a healer ;)I wish this step was only a joke. Go look up the "forced to play a role in the game" thread.
Cleric is a great class, but not so much for the healing. Debuffs, buffs, status recovery, raising, crafting and more. Healing is easily done post-combat with wands if you don't want to focus on cha and selective channeling.
My paladin is pretty good on his own. With the cleric's buffs, he is awesome.
@Lorekeeper: I roleplay, both in the sense that I emote from my character's perspective, AND waste my round to do tactically idiotic actions (depending on which side of the strange new arbitrary "Either you RP or you Powergame" fence you are on). Last session, my paladin got a finger chopped off due to our "Critical Hit Effects" deck, and instead of putting it back on and healing himself, he buried it with a crap NPC that followed us around and died because she somehow thought she could do what we do even though we were twice her level. Also befriends people that any sane powergamer would murder for loot.
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I really feel that optimization and fluff are not mutually exclusive. Most people, particularly individuals who make a living by constantly putting themselves in demanding and dangerous positions, try to better themselves ALL the time.
That said, I will
1. Find the concept I want to play - Example: Spell Warrior
2. What classes work well for this in my system? No unpublished sources, no non-PF = Eldritch Knight
3. How do I get the required training? I need spells and martial training. Answer? Found and raised by an ancient green dragon in disguise.
4. Find a reason for each feat, skill point, and item that fits in the back-story. Example: I researched the darkvision spell after the dragon decided to test my martial prowess deep underground with no warning.
5. I rehearse the finished product as though I'd be performing in an on-stage play.
Now I am good at what I've spent my life doing (optimized) and I'm ready to showcase it in word and deed (fluff).
Also, to counter the eventual "no one is perfect" argument...the mechanic is dice roles. You're going to mess up occasionally.
In short, I am of the persuasion that optimization and fluff skip merrily off, hand in hand, through field and fog alike.
I think the optimization is a 3.XX players perspective. I am from an earlier time and accept what my character recieves with little desire to shop out the best equipment.
I start with stats and build a character around them with it taking form the more I work with it.
My best characters are those with quirky backgrounds. One of my favorite was a random character that in 2nd edition went from a 35 year old male 12th level theif to a 15 year old female 9th level thief after some tragic runins with girdles, vampires and drinking strange potions.
I think the optimization is a 3.XX players perspective. I am from an earlier time and accept what my character recieves with little desire to shop out the best equipment.
I start with stats and build a character around them with it taking form the more I work with it.
My best characters are those with quirky backgrounds. One of my favorite was a random character that in 2nd edition went from a 35 year old male 12th level theif to a 15 year old female 9th level thief after some tragic runins with girdles, vampires and drinking strange potions.
Ah, the good old days of, "We don't have a magic user and we foud a potion. Paper-Rock-Scissors to see who drinks it!"
I had some great times like that.
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I rarely get to play a PC for more than four sessions when I get to play at all. I think it's starting affect my character creation habits.
I'm finding it harder and harder to devote the time and effort needed to craft a fun backstory for any of my PCs, and I don't bother to optimize since I never get to see their abilities grow.
At this point, I guess the only important thing to me when making a character is remembering where I left my eraser so I can re-use the character sheet when I'm done with it in six hours.
For me, it goes:
Step 1: Pick the one thing the character does best. (Slight of hand for a pickpocket, generating AoO's for a control fighter)
Step 2: Max that ability out until it hits 90% success.
Step 3: Fluff up the character around that (why am I so good at X?)
Step 4: Fill in the blanks with comedy/ film references (I once had a sniper type rogue with ranks in profession: confectioner which he used as a cover identity)
That's that. I wouldn't call it min/maxing- more like max plus backstory... ing.
All too often you cannot optimize a character, even at a table where you know all the players and the GM and have played with them for years....
I've started out with a sorcerer specializing in rays and changed to summon monster at third level.
I've had the "big beefy fighter" going for Weapon Specialization having to switch to paladin because the cleric in the party died, leaving us without a healer, let alone anyone who could use divine wands.
I've had a fighter switch over to sorcerer due to the rules of Living Greyhawk at the time...I could never afford to upgrade my weapon without getting Craft Magical Arms and Armor myself.
My point is it takes time for group dynamics to play out until you get enough teamwork in battle to let your character shine. Sometimes you have to pick up a very specific spell or the module will TPK you. The same goes for the impossible-to-open DC 35 locked door.
My preference is to roll the dice and find inspiration from the rolls. I even try to do something like that when I'm forced to point buy, rolling first and then trying to model the numbers I came up with to the best of my ability with whatever point buy system has been foisted on me.
Personality tends to come from the numbers. If I have a high score in one attribute, I start imagining how that advantage shaped the character as he/she was growing up. I do the same for low scoring attributes.
Once I've got a good idea of what kind of person he/she is, I start looking at it in the context of the game world, which in most of my gaming experience has been home brewed. I make adjustments to whatever scenario the DM has outlined for the campaign, and start thinking about what kind of class the character would have gravitated to based on their stats and personality. Everything else sort of follows from that.
I also try to choose feats and skill rank assignments at later levels due to what events the character is experiencing as he's played. If the RP has been leading to him relying on a skill he might not usually spend points on, I'll buy a rank in that. It tends to override any loose development plans I'd made, and I like that. Makes the character seem more organic.
Ultimately, I value characterization over mechanics. Organic rather than optimization. That's not always possible, and if I have to optimize to survive a campaign (like Age of Worms, for example) then I do so. But that's definitely not my preference.
One rule I live by is that I will not be forced to play a role. If the DM is going to try making me play something I don't want to play...well, he can find another player. Life is too short to waste valuable RP time playing something I'm not interested in.
When I make a character I normally think up a concept and then try to make my character excel at whatever that concept does. In our Kingmaker game I really wanted to play a Samurai type character based on my favorite L5R Kakita Bushi I've made. I really wanted to fill the role of Queen's Champion and be the head of the honor guard. We decided the General slot fit best for that as he is the public hero and Charisma is one of the traits you can use with that leadership role.
Mind you this then led to a major problem for me and my dm and it took a lot of collaboration to get it to function the way I imagined him looking. I pictured an unarmored and mobile yet efficient combatant. Mobile Fighter fit almost perfectly. Only issue we ran into was how to get Mechanics to support Fluff. It took some system backhanding in order to get him to function the way we both envisioned him working.
So pretty much the way I make a character is I come up with a concept and then abuse the rules until it fits the concept and supports the fluff. Sometimes there is no tweakage necessary, other times I PIERCE THE HEAVENS! in order to get a concept to function the way it should.
I try to think of a character that has mechanics I like and fit an interesting background around that. I want to make an archer type ranger. Oh I grew up on at a hunting lodge and then ran away to the river kingdoms is one of my backgrounds.
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When I get to actually play, rather than DM, I usually go for something I haven't done before.
So, the process goes something like.
Step 1: Evaluate the game/system...what is available?
Step 2: Figure out what KIND of PC I want to play...nice lovable gnome, hard-bitten half-orc gumshoe, haughty human wizard?
Step 3: Check for overlap/viability in party configuration. Do we not have any primary casters? Do we not have ANYONE who can heal? Does anyone have social skills, or even skills at all?
Step 4: Hammer the character out with CharGen restrictions from GM in place. Tweak all the numbers / feats / etc to maximize survivability & versatility in play (never never never go 7, 10, 12, 20, 10, 7 for example...just can't bring myself to do it)
Step 4.5: While creating the mechanics, the backstory / personality / germ of character surfaces...keep this in mind, generate a "voice" for the PC, and let it ride through gameplay.
1. Pick something NEW to play with, be it feat, class, or concept.
2. Begin researching the things that make that kind of character effective.
3. Get distracted, find a new NEW thing to play with, make a secondary backup.
4. Like the secondary backup better, research backstory in canon supplements.
5. With a better understanding of the game world, rewrite BOTH characters, and have a tertiary backup waiting to be statted out.
6. Pitch these ideas to the rest of the players in my group, in person or over email, find out what they think, research a fourth concept to try to balance out the party.
7. Have a Pizza and a PUNCHED flavored Rockstar, and rethink everything while watching something from SciFi, or some anime.
8. Have three or four snickering stupid ideas about 'wouldn't that be cool if!?' and quietly discard them and the caffeine high.
9. Do job search on thursday, and finish writing a module to win at least a placing spot and get published. (Hopefully this becomes a regular occurence... >.>)
10. Go back through my notes on friday, decide I really wanted to play the first concept after all, point-buy, double-check house-rules compatability, double-check with other players in the group, get told they'd really rather I played the SECOND concept, and also, could I have UMD since my charisma on that character is so high (or splash a level of rogue to go with my perception and do the trapspringing, etc...), and I restat for that, research more viable alternatives, come up with a personality, build 1-20.
11. Enthusiastically bother my friends with discussions about my first and fourth concepts, hinting that those characters would be more fun, to a chorus of annoyed glares. Write it all down on a character sheet, come up with accent, finalize backstory, and finally..
12. Play. Yes, I do funny voices. I've been told I'm quite good at them. Don't judge me.
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Usually find a class or general concept that I like and work from there. I have a particular fondness for characters that are not what they seem. (I still want to play my gnome rogue masquerading as a sorceror.)
I'll generally start building the character, and the backstory/personality will kind of evolve along the way.