I have a 7th level cleric with a Ring of Sustenance. The ring allows the wearer to require only 2 hours sleep a night as opposed to the usual 8.
So technically, the cleric could go to sleep at 10 pm, awake at midnight and have his spells prepared by 1 am. Would this be stretching the rules. It is a new day. I don't want to wake my diety up to get my spells. Rovagug is a cranky bear in the mornings.
Sleeping has nothing to do with preparation of divine spells, unlike arcane casters which are sleep dependent. The time of day when cleric prepares spells has to be specified when ability to use divine spells is gained and does not change.
So in example above you can do it, as long as you prepare your spells ever day at 1 am.
I am not sure about it in PF, but the rule that every spell used in 8 hours prior to preparation counts against new day spell limit probably apply, however. Thus any spell used from 5 pm to 1 am reduces number of available spells on the new day. If that is true the morning preparation is the most practical.
| 11 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Wow, I hadn't noticed the Recent Casting Limit. I have a cleric of Desna who has been communing with her deity when the stars come out each evening, but since virtually all her adventuring falls "within the previous 8 hours," that nice little piece of fluff is going to fall by the wayside.
All this rule does is guarantee that every cleric is going to prepare spells in the morning, whether they worship the god of sunbeams, the moon goddess, or a deity whose ultimate goal is to inaugurate an eternal reign of darkness. Arcane spellcasters, at least, have the option of resting 8 hours at another time of day if the party is attacked at night and they have to use their spells: doable, if inconvenient. Clerics, if they miss their "daily event," have to go a full 24 hours without spells until sunrise comes around again.
I don't like this rule at all, and I'm flagging my own post for FAQ to get some developer input. Please join me! :)
I agree with Joana. The recent casting limit simply doesn't make sense for clerics who prepare spells at any time other than first thing in the morning. If you have a cleric who prepares spells at 8 p.m., that means that any spells cast at 1 p.m. (quite possible as it's a pretty standard part of the adventuring day) could not be replaced until 8 p.m. the following day, 31 hours later! Something just doesn't seem right there. Sure, the cleric could cast all her spells at 7:30 and get them all back half an hour later, but that also means the cleric just went a full day without casting any spells, so it balances out.
As the DM for Joana's cleric of Desna, I've already given her the go-ahead to continue preparing spells the same way we've always been doing it. Indeed, until she pointed me to this thread, I had no idea that rule even existed. I intend to continue playing as if it doesn't exist. :)
Sleeping has nothing to do with preparation of divine spells, unlike arcane casters which are sleep dependent. The time of day when cleric prepares spells has to be specified when ability to use divine spells is gained and does not change.
So in example above you can do it, as long as you prepare your spells ever day at 1 am.
I am not sure about it in PF, but the rule that every spell used in 8 hours prior to preparation counts against new day spell limit probably apply, however. Thus any spell used from 5 pm to 1 am reduces number of available spells on the new day. If that is true the morning preparation is the most practical.
As this is the Rule forum
+1 on what Drejk said is True. Pathfinder does have a limit of the 8 hours.
This is to prevent caster from casting all there spells (Defensive), getting 2-4 hour sleep, relearning all there spells, and then blowing them on a fight (Offensive), then going back to bed for another 2 hours, and getting up and blowing them all over again (Healing)..... All in one day.
The "Any spell cast in the last 8 hours", helps prevent abuse of the system. Cleric who learn at midday, sunset, or midnight, just need to plan ahead according.
This is to prevent caster from casting all there spells (Defensive), getting 2-4 hour sleep, relearning all there spells, and then blowing them on a fight (Offensive), then going back to bed for another 2 hours, and getting up and blowing them all over again (Healing)..... All in one day.
The "Any spell cast in the last 8 hours", helps prevent abuse of the system. Cleric who learn at midday, sunset, or midnight, just need to plan ahead according.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Clerics are limited to only preparing spells once per day tied to a daily event. There is no way to use all your spells, sleep 2 hours and prepare them again. Clerics can prepare spells only once in 24 hours, at a specific time.
Sleeping has nothing to do with preparation of divine spells, unlike arcane casters which are sleep dependent. The time of day when cleric prepares spells has to be specified when ability to use divine spells is gained and does not change.
So in example above you can do it, as long as you prepare your spells ever day at 1 am.
I am not sure about it in PF, but the rule that every spell used in 8 hours prior to preparation counts against new day spell limit probably apply, however. Thus any spell used from 5 pm to 1 am reduces number of available spells on the new day. If that is true the morning preparation is the most practical.
As this is the Rule forum
+1 on what Drejk said is True. Pathfinder does have a limit of the 8 hours.
This is to prevent caster from casting all there spells (Defensive), getting 2-4 hour sleep, relearning all there spells, and then blowing them on a fight (Offensive), then going back to bed for another 2 hours, and getting up and blowing them all over again (Healing)..... All in one day.
The "Any spell cast in the last 8 hours", helps prevent abuse of the system. Cleric who learn at midday, sunset, or midnight, just need to plan ahead according.
No caster can sleep 2-4 hour and get their spells back/blow them, sleep another two hours prepare again and blow them. Arcane Magic is dependent on the 8 hours of rest whereas Divine Magic is dependent on the once every 24 hr prayer session. Please refer to pages 218-220 in the Core Rule Book, this covers all of your questions/comments/concerns. While I agree that the Recent Casting Rule does not make sense for clerics since they can only prepare once in a 24hr period regardless of rest. In fact your cleric does not need to sleep at all to pray for her spells.
That is correct, you can not sleep 2-4 hours.
This is due to the requirement: You can not fill any spell slot cast within the last 8 hours. Cleric are required to mesmerized there spells at a certain time each day. Wizard need 8 hours rest between relearning there spells.
IF you take away these rules (as some people were suggesting), then the example i game would be possible.
Why i said "This is to prevent caster".
That is correct, you can not sleep 2-4 hours.
This is due to the requirement: You can not fill any spell slot cast within the last 8 hours. Cleric are required to mesmerized there spells at a certain time each day. Wizard need 8 hours rest between relearning there spells.
IF you take away these rules (as some people were suggesting), then the example i game would be possible.
Why i said "This is to prevent caster".
Actually, people are only recommending removing the recent casting limit, not the other limits. If that is done, you still can't do what you gave in your example. Here are two instances of the effects of removing the recent casting limit, one for clerics, one for wizards:
Cleric (prepares spells at 8 p.m. every day):
Day 1: Prepares spells at 8 p.m, does not cast any spells after this.
Day 2: Saves spells until 7:30 p.m., then casts them all. Prepares spells at 8 p.m., then casts them all immediately afterwards. Cannot cast any more spells that day.
Day 3: Cannot cast any spells until preparing them again at 8 p.m.
In this scenario, the cleric does manage to cast two days worth of spells in close succession. However, the cleric also has nearly a full day both before and after in which she is unable to cast any spells at all.
Wizard:
Day 1: Prepares spells first thing in the morning after a full night's rest, then casts all of them in a battle almost immediately afterward. The wizard must now sleep 8 hours minimum before casting spells again. He could conceivably go to sleep immediately after the battle (probably won't be very tired since he's just woken up from 8 hours of sleep, but nothing strictly prohibiting it in the rules), but that would cut out most of the adventuring day. He would also be past that recent casting limit once he woke up anyway.
Verdict: The recent casting limit does nothing that the other rules don't already accomplish other than to make it pointless to play a cleric who prepares spells at any time other than first thing in the morning.
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Prologue: I like the Desna evening star greeting idea and value this sort of character detail. I'm providing this prologue as a disclaimer because, without it, I fear my message might be missed.
All spellcasters have a limited number of spells that they can cast per day. All spellcasters are excluded from replenishing spell slots used in the prior 8 hours. These rules are universal.
A wizard has to rest 8 hours, cannot replenish slots used in the prior 8 hours, and is limited to a given number a day. Efforts to cast all, sleep 8 hrs, prep, cast all, sleep 8 hrs, prep all within the the same day follow the 8 hour rule, but ignore the spells per day rule. Both rules are in effect. If someone wants to point me to the text that says otherwise, I'm happy to be corrected.
Clerics have to prepare at a given time of day. Unless the deity, religion, order, etc. sets a time of day, this time of day is at the option of the character. If you chose to select a time of day other than dawn for role playing reasons, that is up to you.
The role playing fluff of worshiping in the evening to greet the stars can as easily be role-playing fluff of worshipping in the morning to say farewell to the stars until we meet again. If the GM is willing to accomodate either version, you're good to go without issue. If you choose a bad time of day that will not be accomodated, knowingly, that's a choice and should have in-game consequences within any game that values immersion and verisimilitude. What should never happen is to choose a bad time of day without knowing the consequences and subsequently be stuck with it.
Essentially, for just about every small nice piece of role-playing fluff that runs into rules problems, there is another small nice piece that doesn't run into problems.
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"Desna, I value the hours we have spent in the preceding hours, basking in starlight. As the last of your beacons fades in the morning hours, I hold forth my holy symbol to capture the final glimpse of that light and to preserve it throughout the day, to use in your honor, until darkness brings your beacons once more into view. May my meager efforts preserve memory of your glory until your beacons roar to life yet again."
Clerics have to prepare at a given time of day. Unless the deity, religion, order, etc. sets a time of day, this time of day is at the option of the character. If you chose to select a time of day other than dawn for role playing reasons, that is up to you.
I guess my problem with the rule is that it gives the illusion of choice without giving you a real choice. It's like the "trap option" feats supposedly included in 3.x to ensnare players not smart enough to optimize. "The character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells"... but if you choose any time other than first thing when you wake, you'll never actually get to cast but every other day. It's like Henry Ford and his Model T: You can have any color car you want ... as long as it's black.
If the rule just said 'clerics learn their spells after their period of rest,' I wouldn't have a complaint. But why pretend the rules are giving a choice, when they're really not? There's all kinds of neat, flavorful ideas to tailor a cleric to his or her deity: a cleric of Cayden Cailean who gets spells at Happy Hour, a cleric of Gozreh who prays when the tide comes in or goes out each day, a cleric of Sarenrae who communes with the goddess at high noon. But anyone who chooses to do something fun like this to break the mold of "spells in the morning" is getting screwed over for it. For a high-level cleric who has tons of spells (which is really the level at which the rule is aimed to avoid "abuse," if you look at it that way), it's not that big a deal to go without a spell or two for 24 hours, but my first-level cleric gets two first-level spells, which I can pretty much guarantee will be cast within 8 hours of sunset. And there's no mechanism for changing the time of day a cleric prays for spells as she levels up, so once you pick "morning" to avoid being crippled at low-levels, you can never change to something more flavorful later on.
Howie23, there's not a thing wrong with your rendition of a cleric of Desna praying in the morning -- except that it's not mine. Really, it's not yours, either. It's a rationalization to make the fluff fit the best option mechanics-wise, and it guarantees that every cleric will choose the same option. And, once again, why not just say clerics have to pray for spells first thing, if that's the practical outcome?
You have a choose. You get to choose when you pray for spells.
If you pray for spells at midday, well more than likely you will sleep till midday on most days.
If you pray at midnight, well you will most likely sleep 8 hours till midnight.
Without magic (ring, spell), all cleric still need to get 8 hours rest. When you get those 8 hours is up to you. When you select your time of pray is up to you.
All you got to do is play ahead. If you know that your going to pray at midday, then do not cast any spell 8 hour before.
....
No different than being ambushed at night, and having to cast spells in a fight at 4 am in the morning. Then having to pray for new spells at sunrise (6 am), and not able to refill the spell slots you used up 2 hours ago.
I just do not see the need to give cleric an exemption to the "can not relearn spells slots cast in last 8 hours", when they are choose there god, and choose the time of day when they learn there spells.
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I guess my problem with the rule is that it gives the illusion of choice without giving you a real choice. It's like the "trap option" feats supposedly included in 3.x to ensnare players not smart enough to optimize.
Howie23, there's not a thing wrong with your rendition of a cleric of Desna praying in the morning -- except that it's not mine. Really, it's not yours, either. It's a rationalization to make the fluff fit the best option mechanics-wise, and it guarantees that every cleric will choose the same option. And, once again, why not just say clerics have to pray for spells first thing, if that's the practical outcome?
I agree that it is a bit of a false choice when viewed through the lenses of optimization, to which I have a few replies. And, yes, it's rationalization, but not to guarantee all do the same. Rather, it is rationalization to have the cleric of the deity you want, and which can perform at the time of day that you have implied you want.
The designers, going back to the 3e designers, have talked about the feature within the game that allows you to make sub-optimal choices. The rationale, in my mind, is to provide a greater degree of involvement in making choices. If all choices are equally good, by definition, no choice is bad...nor is it good. Just different.
In my prior post, I presented the philosophy that the player should never get screwed by making a sub-optimal choice like this unknowingly. The GM should point out the issue during character creation to allow for reflection, change, or the informed choice. If the GM doesn't know of the issue due to inexperience, it can be adjusted in game. For example, the character may have an option to join another order within the the worship of Desna that prays at dawn, an ecclesiastic order might dictate a change in practice (why? intrigue? loss of an artifact? gain of a new one?), etc. This assumes that the player wants to change.
RPGs have strategic elements both based upon their historical origin and the nature of play. One method of strategical planning is the evaluation of SWOT (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats). An evening praying cleric of Desna has weaknesses, but also strengths. Role play of that character would include the decisions (whether consciously by the character, by circumstances, or with the advice of other characters) to adventure at a time appropriate to my abilities.
If the GM and or party makeup is such that making strategic adjustments regarding time-of-day for adventuring is not an option, it is up to the GM to provide the campaign rule that gives the player guidelines to select appropriate fluff. One out-of-the-box example might be "The campaign will largely involve the characters being active at night. This should be taken into account when choosing race, spells, feats, equipment and other class features. Clerics preparing spells at dawn may be at a disadvantage....." Less direct methods are also available.
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Ultimately, in my mind, there are lots of opportunities to make things work as written and which can result in creative campaigns that otherwise couldn't happen. I understand the objection with respect to your cleric and the RAW to stem from the mismatch between selected time-of-day for prep and 'selected' time-of-adventure. Options are 1) change character's prep-time, 2) change campaign's adventure time-of-day, 3)role-play the weakness, 4) change the rule to fit your vision of gaming. Sounds to me like you and your GM have chosen 4, which is totally valid, even if it wouldn't be my choice.
You have a choose. You get to choose when you pray for spells.
If you pray for spells at midday, well more than likely you will sleep till midday on most days.
If you pray at midnight, well you will most likely sleep 8 hours till midnight.
Without magic (ring, spell), all cleric still need to get 8 hours rest. When you get those 8 hours is up to you. When you select your time of pray is up to you.
All you got to do is play ahead. If you know that your going to pray at midday, then do not cast any spell 8 hour before.
....
No different than being ambushed at night, and having to cast spells in a fight at 4 am in the morning. Then having to pray for new spells at sunrise (6 am), and not able to refill the spell slots you used up 2 hours ago.
I just do not see the need to give cleric an exemption to the "can not relearn spells slots cast in last 8 hours", when they are choose there god, and choose the time of day when they learn there spells.
+1
It's a choice. Just because for your campaign, it is not an "optimal" choice, it does not make it a trap. Years ago, I played in a group that did all their adventuring at night. It was initially started as reactionary due to always being attacked at camp during the evening hours, but actualy became quite fun.Currently, I have made a few clerics of Desna that were more focused on the dream aspect. They see the prayer for spells in the morning as being guided by the dreams they recieved that night. I do not take it as "rationalization". It's just how the character is made. I have designed a cleric of Iomedae that prays at high noon, when the light of truth is at its brightest. To me, the spell casting in the prior eight hours just comes out as a 'wash'. I suppose in campaigns where encounters are limited to certain shifts, it would be a hinderance. But most of my games, encounters are not limited to a 9-5 work day.
Greg
EDIT: Howie23's post is a more clearly stated post of how I think. Probably would not have posted if his had been posted before I hit the reply button. So he gets a +1 as well.
If you pray for spells at midday, well more than likely you will sleep till midday on most days.
If you pray at midnight, well you will most likely sleep 8 hours till midnight.
I tried in my post to specify that all clerics will pray "when they wake up," not "in the morning," specifically to cover the occasional nocturnal party. That's what I'm objecting to: the necessary "sleep, then pray" connection. Unless it's a solo adventure, the cleric is going to be traveling with a party that is most likely operating on a dawn-to-dusk schedule. They're not going to want to spend all morning sitting around while the cleric sleeps until noon, nor are those of them without low-light or darkvision going to want to start their adventuring day at midnight.
Without magic (ring, spell), all cleric still need to get 8 hours rest.
Actually, clerics don't need 8 hours rest. Common sense will dictate that you can't stay up 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, but there are no fatigue rules in Pathfinder that relate to hours spent resting, afaik.
When you get those 8 hours is up to you. When you select your time of pray is up to you.
All you got to do is play ahead. If you know that your going to pray at midday, then do not cast any spell 8 hour before.
....
No different than being ambushed at night, and having to cast spells in a fight at 4 am in the morning. Then having to pray for new spells at sunrise (6 am), and not able to refill the spell slots you used up 2 hours ago.
For the record, I don't like the rule for clerics who learn spells at dawn, either. :)
I just do not see the need to give cleric an exemption to the "can not relearn spells slots cast in last 8 hours", when they are choose there god, and choose the time of day when they learn there spells.
But clerics are already at a disadvantage to arcane casters with respect to this rule because their spell preparation is tied to a certain time of day. If a party is ambushed at 4 am and the cleric and wizard both cast spells, the wizard can wait until 12 noon and then get his full list of spells back. The cleric can't get spells back until 6 am the next day.
If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, she must wait until the next day to prepare spells.
Page 567 = Fatigued = A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and take a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hour of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.
..............
The Wizard would not have to wait till noon, he would only need to get 2 hours more sleep (as listed on page 218), before being refreshed and able to learn spells.
.............
The cleric having to wait a day, is just part of life. This is one reason why cleric can CHOOSE the time of day they want to learn spells. Once choose it is set, and have to plan ahead, to prevent disruption.
Also, unlike Wizards, Divine caster can select any spells on there list. This extra freedom of spell selection, which a wizard does not have, is also just apart of life. Sometime, you win the toss, sometime you loss the toss. Either way, i think the "Can not refill any spell slot, cast is last 8 hours", is a good rule.
Page 567 = Fatigued = A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and take a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hour of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.
But there are no rules about becoming fatigued that aren't related to a forced march or hustle. By RAW, there is no way to become fatigued by not getting enough rest in a day. You can get out of the fatigued condition by resting 8 hours, but not resting 8 hours doesn't put you into it.
The Wizard would not have to wait till noon, he would only need to get 2 hours more sleep (as listed on page 218), before being refreshed and able to learn spells.
On the contrary, due to the Recent Casting Limit rule, the wizard could not replenish spell slots that he cast when the party was ambushed at 4 am. I specified that he would have to wait until noon to learn his full complement of spells.
The cleric having to wait a day, is just part of life. This is one reason why cleric can CHOOSE the time of day they want to learn spells. Once choose it is set, and have to plan ahead, to prevent disruption.
Wizards can also CHOOSE the time of day they want to learn spells. It's called any time of day after they're able to get 8 hours of rest. If the party is ambushed at 4 am, the wizard can CHOOSE to sleep until noon and then prepare his full spell list. The cleric cannot.
Also, unlike Wizards, Divine caster can select any spells on there list. This extra freedom of spell selection, which a wizard does not have, is also just apart of life. Sometime, you win the toss, sometime you loss the toss. Either way, i think the "Can not refill any spell slot, cast is last 8 hours", is a good rule.
I would posit that the extra freedom of spell selection is already accounted for by the fact that arcane casters get much more "flashy" spells, especially at lower levels. That's just my opinion, though.
I don't like this rule because it:
1. makes for more record-keeping. "Hey, DM, was it 1:20 or 2:15 we fought that owlbear? And did I cast a Cure Light or a Cure Moderate then?"
2. encourages the 15-minute adventuring day, or "nova-ing." Might as well burn all your spells in the first encounter so you can get them all back the next day, rather than try to think tactically and save spells for when you might need them or in case of ambush and then get robbed of spell slots the next day.
3. discourages "breaking the mold" and doing something a little different. Every cleric I'd ever run prepared spells in the morning. Every cleric I've ever seen run prepares their spells in the morning. I thought it might be fun to be a little different. I don't like being penalized for doing something that's different fluff-wise but gives my character no benefit mechanically.
4. disadvantages divine vis-a-vis arcane casters under the same rule. If an arcane caster needs to cast a spell within 8 hours of when he would normally prepare spells, he can just wait another 8 hours from casting (assuming he can get the required rest). A divine caster has to wait more than 24 hours to avoid losing spell slots.
Sleeping has nothing to do with preparation of divine spells, unlike arcane casters which are sleep dependent. The time of day when cleric prepares spells has to be specified when ability to use divine spells is gained and does not change.
So in example above you can do it, as long as you prepare your spells ever day at 1 am.
I am not sure about it in PF, but the rule that every spell used in 8 hours prior to preparation counts against new day spell limit probably apply, however. Thus any spell used from 5 pm to 1 am reduces number of available spells on the new day. If that is true the morning preparation is the most practical.
Ok I knew this was true in 3.5 But I'll need a citation from the PF core book for Pathfinder because as of yet I have not found it any where in the Main book. Please
You know I never, ever, ever, knew this rule even existed.
And you know what....
I still don't.
There are very few rules, in this great game, I just don't like. This is one of them. Way to inconvienent and lots more 'paperwork', IMO.
+1 to all those that think this one stinks.
Ok I knew this was true in 3.5 But I'll need a citation from the PF core book for Pathfinder because as of yet I have not found it any where in the Main book. Please
What, the Recent Casting Limit? P. 220 of the Core Rulebook.
EDIT: Actually, the same page has all the divine casting rules, so even if you're talking about the no-sleep-required rule or the specified-time-of-day rule, it's there too. :)
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I don't disagree with Joana's observation about the tendency of the rules to promote an effective "relative dawn" type of preparation. I personally don't have a problem with it, but appreciate that Joana finds the rules non-supportive of a given character idea. I am, however, not convinced that all character ideas MUST be supported.
I'm going to suggest, however, that discussion about comparison of arcane/divine spellcasting prep as a balance matter in isolation of all other features of the various classes involved is unlikely to lead to any consensus either about the rules, suggested houserules to alleviate, etc.
That is correct, you can not sleep 2-4 hours.
This is due to the requirement: You can not fill any spell slot cast within the last 8 hours. Cleric are required to mesmerized there spells at a certain time each day. Wizard need 8 hours rest between relearning there spells.
IF you take away these rules (as some people were suggesting), then the example i game would be possible.
Why i said "This is to prevent caster".
Actually, people are only recommending removing the recent casting limit, not the other limits. If that is done, you still can't do what you gave in your example. Here are two instances of the effects of removing the recent casting limit, one for clerics, one for wizards:
Cleric (prepares spells at 8 p.m. every day):
Day 1: Prepares spells at 8 p.m, does not cast any spells after this.
Day 2: Saves spells until 7:30 p.m., then casts them all. Prepares spells at 8 p.m., then casts them all immediately afterwards. Cannot cast any more spells that day.
Day 3: Cannot cast any spells until preparing them again at 8 p.m.
In this scenario, the cleric does manage to cast two days worth of spells in close succession. However, the cleric also has nearly a full day both before and after in which she is unable to cast any spells at all.Wizard:
Day 1: Prepares spells first thing in the morning after a full night's rest, then casts all of them in a battle almost immediately afterward. The wizard must now sleep 8 hours minimum before casting spells again. He could conceivably go to sleep immediately after the battle (probably won't be very tired since he's just woken up from 8 hours of sleep, but nothing strictly prohibiting it in the rules), but that would cut out most of the adventuring day. He would also be past that recent casting limit once he woke up anyway.Verdict: The recent casting limit does nothing that the other rules don't already accomplish other than to make it pointless to play a cleric who prepares spells at any time other than first...
Exactly, totally agree. It is a redundant rule.
Oh well, if you do not want to beat them, join them.
COOL
My 10th level cleric going to cast on my 4 part members (counting self), at 10:30 am:
4 x Endure Element = 24 hours
4 x Delay Poison = 10 hours
4 x Water Breathing = 20 hours
4 x Greater Magic Weapon = 10 hours = +2 to hit/damage enchantment bonus.
3 x Magic Vestments = 10 hours = +2 AC enchantment bonus to only 3 party members.
Then will sit down and pray at 11:00am to 12:00pm, and restore my entire spell slots.
Then will be ready for that Deep Underwater adventure vs Poison creatures, with a full spell list, and its Time to go Diving :)
Ya, lets get ride of the "can not restore spell slots cast in last 8 hours", rule !!
Oh well, if you do not want to beat them, join them.
COOL
My 10th level cleric going to cast on my 4 part members (counting self), at 10:30 am:
4 x Endure Element = 24 hours
4 x Delay Poison = 10 hours
4 x Water Breathing = 20 hours
4 x Greater Magic Weapon = 10 hours = +2 to hit/damage enchantment bonus.
3 x Magic Vestments = 10 hours = +2 AC enchantment bonus to only 3 party members.Then will sit down and pray at 11:00am to 12:00pm, and restore my entire spell slots.
Then will be ready for that Deep Underwater adventure vs Poison creatures, with a full spell list, and its Time to go Diving :)
Ya, lets get ride of the "can not restore spell slots cast in last 8 hours", rule !!
This is assuming you didn't use any of your spells in any combat or other encounter? between 12pm the previous day to 1030am today?
This is assuming you didn't use any of your spells in any combat or other encounter? between 12pm the previous day to 1030am today?Oh well, if you do not want to beat them, join them.
COOL
My 10th level cleric going to cast on my 4 part members (counting self), at 10:30 am:
4 x Endure Element = 24 hours
4 x Delay Poison = 10 hours
4 x Water Breathing = 20 hours
4 x Greater Magic Weapon = 10 hours = +2 to hit/damage enchantment bonus.
3 x Magic Vestments = 10 hours = +2 AC enchantment bonus to only 3 party members.Then will sit down and pray at 11:00am to 12:00pm, and restore my entire spell slots.
Then will be ready for that Deep Underwater adventure vs Poison creatures, with a full spell list, and its Time to go Diving :)
Ya, lets get ride of the "can not restore spell slots cast in last 8 hours", rule !!
I'm sure this is the kind of "abuse" the developers had in mind when they created this rule. It's just that I don't particularly find it all that "abusive." If a character managed to go 24 hours without casting any spells and the party is able to manage their own time that efficiently, it seems more like "tactics" to me.
It's useful to know what the "worst-case scenario" is, so I can take it into account as a DM. If, for some reason, I wanted to prevent the party from using spells in this matter, I would probably include a ticking-clock element in the form of a time limit or the imminent endangerment of innocents so the party didn't feel like they could wait around until it's most convenient for them to deal with the poisonous underwater creatures.
I would imagine that, in most cases, if a tenth-level party has that much advance preparation time and knows exactly what they're going to be facing, they could purchase scrolls or wands that would accomplish the same buffed-up, full-casting-ability status before they went in anyway. Honestly, I prefer the potential for that kind of abuse to telling a prepping-spells-at-dawn, cookie-cutter, first-level cleric that they have to go without spells for 24 hours because they cast sanctuary and cure light wounds when the party was ambushed overnight.
This is the kind of information I'd like to get from the design team anyway: what kind of "problems" I might face by ignoring this rule so I can prepare accordingly. The rule's been around at least since 3rd edition and for all I know is a direct transcription from the pen of Gygax himself. I've been playing 13 years, and my group has never used it, but we tend to play at low levels and very few people play casters.
Cleric (prepares spells at 8 p.m. every day):
Day 1: Prepares spells at 8 p.m, spends the rest of the night doing whatever he does with down time (i.e. not casting spells).
Day 2: Sleeps in late. Has a big lunch. Heads off to the dungeon at around 6pm. Saves spells until 7:30 p.m., then casts them all. Prepares spells at 8 p.m., then casts them all immediately afterwards. Cannot cast any more spells that day. 10 pm Dungeon cleared, heads home.
Day 3: Sleeps in again. spends the day doing whatever it is he does with down time. (i.e. not casting spells) Cannot cast any spells until preparing them again at 8 p.m.
It's useful to know what the "worst-case scenario" is, so I can take it into account as a DM. If, for some reason, I wanted to prevent the party from using spells in this matter, I would probably include a ticking-clock element in the form of a time limit or the imminent endangerment of innocents so the party didn't feel like they could wait around until it's most convenient for them to deal with the poisonous underwater creatures
You would do this for EVERY SINGLE ADVENTURE? Because any adventure you didn't, the cleric could abuse his spells.
I have to agree with Joana here, if you are playing with a group, the normal day/night cycle will almost always be observed, which means that a divine caster who chooses to pray for spells at any point in the day other than when everyone else gets them is a hindrance to the rest of the party... choose noon b/c of your god? that means if you cast spells from 4am to noon those spell slots will not be rejuvenated, and a normal adventuring party will have been up and moving from 6-8am. Choose dusk? nearly the entire day must be spent ~not~ casting so you can regain those spell slots. That doesn't mean you have to plan around it, that means the entire party has to un-immerse themselves because of a rule disallowing what should be good role play.
So, if for whatever reason, you play a character with light sensitivity (a racial trait, perhaps, or maybe the effect of some kind of magic, or a genetic defect) and you say "Hey, guys, I don't work so well in the light, does anyone mind if we adventure at night? Most of you having low-light vision/darkvision/magical light sources/other ways of seeing at night." Your party would then reply, "Heck No! If we adventure at any time other than 9 to 5, it totally breaks immersion for us! We won't do it!"?
A thought:
When preparing spells for the day, a cleric can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes.
Can a cleric leave her slots open when she prays at whatever time, and the prep spells again after the 8 hour limit has lapsed?
Core rules, p 220. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, she must do so as soon as possible,
and
a cleric can keep some of her spell slots open.
And fill them later. So there's justification for filling those used slots at most 8 hours afterwards. This is what I vaguely remember as a player (ADnD, long ago) if we were ambushed during the night, which wasn't especially rare.
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A thought:
When preparing spells for the day, a cleric can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes.Can a cleric leave her slots open when she prays at whatever time, and the prep spells again after the 8 hour limit has lapsed?
Not clear, from my reading of the rules. Do you actually "lose" the spell slots for the day, so that "leaving them open" until 8 hours have passed is not valid? Or are you on a rolling schedule so that, even if you've filled all available slots at your daily preparation time, other slots become available to be filled later? It's a gray area, but it's the most reasonable compromise I can find without house-ruling.
Like I said, my bias is toward low-level casters, since that's what I've run and seen run most often. How often does a high-level caster ever run out of spell slots? A lot less often than a low-level caster. This rule seems to hurt low-level casters -- the ones who are incapable of abusing it -- much more than high-level casters.
If you play a character with light sensitivity, and if the rest of the group has other sources of vision, then it may be perfectly reasonable to adventure at night. That would be one scenario in which the "almost always be observed" would be null and void... but your exception just proves the rule. You would need a party that would not be severely hindered by adventuring at night to be ok with that, and a party that doesn't include anyone who is partial to daylight, or a "normal business hours" type of day. Most groups fit into the normal day/night cycle, far less fit into your scenario.
This discussion shouldn't be about changing 5 PCs sleep and adventuring schedules to a night-on, day-off cycle just because the cleric of Shelyn meditates when she finds the earth the most beautiful, whatever time that may be.. it should be about why the rules don't accommodate what is a reasonable character choice.
One of the points I was trying to make was that most parties wouldn't be hindered by adventuring at night. 5/7 of PC races have some type of improved vision, magical light sources are abundant, and torches/ sunrods are so cheap as to be practically free. I can't think of any race that is night blind, or otherwise partial to day, and what kind of adventurer keeps normal business hours? Off hand, I can't think of a single non-divine caster I have ever played that gave two whits what time of day he went adventuring.
And the rules do accommodate prepping spells at any time of day, and in fact prepping spells multiple times per day. The fact that prepping spells after 8 hours of rest is most convenient doesn't make prepping them at any other time any less valid.
This discussion shouldn't be about changing 5 PCs sleep and adventuring schedules to a night-on, day-off cycle just because the cleric of Shelyn meditates when she finds the earth the most beautiful, whatever time that may be.. it should be about why the rules don't accommodate what is a reasonable character choice.
+1. Howie23 above pointed out that not all character ideas MUST be supported, which is true, but my bias is toward supporting as many different ideas as possible.
One of the points I was trying to make was that most parties wouldn't be hindered by adventuring at night. 5/7 of PC races have some type of improved vision, magical light sources are abundant, and torches/ sunrods are so cheap as to be practically free. I can't think of any race that is night blind, or otherwise partial to day, and what kind of adventurer keeps normal business hours? Off hand, I can't think of a single non-divine caster I have ever played that gave two whits what time of day he went adventuring.
I think you must mean most mid- to high-level parties wouldn't be hindered by adventuring at night, and even then I'd quibble. Each caster can only have one light spell active at a time. Torches and sunrods provide only a 20- or 30-foot radius of light, leaving human characters blind to anyone with enhanced vision attacking them at range. In addition, characters holding torches or sunrods have only one hand free for fighting or anything else. Also, torches burn for 1 hour; sunrods burn for 6. Each of them weighs a pound. Any average- to low-strength character (especially Small ones) certainly can't afford to carry around several days' supply of them. I run a lot of gnomes and halflings and most of the time, my characters' armor and weapons alone have them rubbing up against Medium encumbrance and skill-check penalties before I even look at other equipment.
If you play a character with light sensitivity, and if the rest of the group has other sources of vision, then it may be perfectly reasonable to adventure at night. That would be one scenario in which the "almost always be observed" would be null and void... but your exception just proves the rule. You would need a party that would not be severely hindered by adventuring at night to be ok with that, and a party that doesn't include anyone who is partial to daylight, or a "normal business hours" type of day. Most groups fit into the normal day/night cycle, far less fit into your scenario.
This discussion shouldn't be about changing 5 PCs sleep and adventuring schedules to a night-on, day-off cycle just because the cleric of Shelyn meditates when she finds the earth the most beautiful, whatever time that may be.. it should be about why the rules don't accommodate what is a reasonable character choice.
One of the points I was trying to make was that most parties wouldn't be hindered by adventuring at night. 5/7 of PC races have some type of improved vision, magical light sources are abundant, and torches/ sunrods are so cheap as to be practically free. I can't think of any race that is night blind, or otherwise partial to day, and what kind of adventurer keeps normal business hours? Off hand, I can't think of a single non-divine caster I have ever played that gave two whits what time of day he went adventuring.
And the rules do accommodate prepping spells at any time of day, and in fact prepping spells multiple times per day. The fact that prepping spells after 8 hours of rest is most convenient doesn't make prepping them at any other time any less valid.
Real Life example:
Have you ever in your life worked Night shift for a job for more than a couple of weeks? I worked night shift at the hospital for nearly three years and it had a huge impact on my life. Not only was it more physically and mentally exhausting but it greatly restricted what and when I could do the things I wanted to do and who I could talk to or hang out with. It is also very difficult to sleep when the sun is glaring through your window. It is a very lonely and isolating experience.How this relates to Night time Adventuring Parties:
Unless your DM has tailored this world to work on a nocturnal cycle. How are you going to interact NPCs if they are all asleep? How are you going to replenish consumables when the shops are all closed at night? How is your rogue/ranger gonna sneak ahead and scout while holding a light source? A light source at night is a big bright "kick me sign" to nighttime predators and monsters. Not to mention ambushes are much easier to pull off at night by your adversaries who will see you coming a mile away with all those torches and sun rods! Plus the cost of all the consumables that allow you to see in the dark: you either nickle and dime yourself to death with sun rods and torches or you get tired of that and start buying potions/wands/rings of dark vision which are hefty in price over time you will spend more money just trying to see in the dark then you would just traveling during the day. Money you could have spend on enchanting your armor or weapon. Not to mention how much the darkness will hamper your archer's range.
Honestly a nighttime party sounds way more restrictive, boring, and complicated, unless the DM tailors the world to a nocturnal rhythm.
Real Life example:
Have you ever in your life worked Night shift for a job for more than a couple of weeks? I worked night shift at the hospital for nearly three years and it had a huge impact on my life. Not only was it more physically and mentally exhausting but it greatly restricted what and when I could do the things I wanted to do and who I could talk to or hang out with. It is also very difficult to sleep when the sun is glaring through your window. It is a very lonely and isolating experience.
OFF TOPIC REAL LIFE EXAMPLE!
Um, actually, I have worked second and third shift mostly for the past 25 years. I have friends that work those shifts and we do things. As for doctor's appointments or renewing licenses or what not. I usually do these things before I go into work on a second shift or after I get off work on a third shift. I seldom have to use a personal day when others that work a first shift do. I also do not find it mentaly or physically exhausting. And sleeping with light, that has never been an issue with me. But I am certain I am a minority, but it is not a "small" minority. A good friend of mine, who works till 2:30am, even managed to find his soulmate, and she works a very simmilar shift. I just have found lots of friends that follow that same schedule. :P
Core rules, p 220. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, she must do so as soon as possible,
and
a cleric can keep some of her spell slots open.
And fill them later. So there's justification for filling those used slots at most 8 hours afterwards. This is what I vaguely remember as a player (ADnD, long ago) if we were ambushed during the night, which wasn't especially rare.
True, but by RAW the spell cast 8 hours before count against your daily limit.
On the other hand, for those who want to bend the rules, would not mind letting them use what you said, to learn there spells at a latter time. Much like a wizard, can.
Core rules, p 220. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, she must do so as soon as possible,
and
a cleric can keep some of her spell slots open.
And fill them later. So there's justification for filling those used slots at most 8 hours afterwards. This is what I vaguely remember as a player (ADnD, long ago) if we were ambushed during the night, which wasn't especially rare.
True, but by RAW the spell cast 8 hours before count against your daily limit.
On the other hand, for those who want to bend the rules, would not mind letting them use what you said, to learn there spells at a latter time. Much like a wizard, can.
When do you start counting for your daily limit, though. Dawn to dawn, or midnight to midnight, or prayer to prayer 24 hrs later? There's a lot of room for compromise, here.
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When do you start counting for your daily limit, though. Dawn to dawn, or midnight to midnight, or prayer to prayer 24 hrs later? There's a lot of room for compromise, here.
Ta Dah! And this, friends, is exactly the reason for this rule. This covers the majority of situations where there is conflict between x/spells per day and "what I gotta do to prep spells..."
Those seeing it acceptable to nova just prior to prep, and then nova after are missing the point that x/spells per day exists.
Oh well, if you do not want to beat them, join them.
COOL
My 10th level cleric going to cast on my 4 part members (counting self), at 10:30 am:
4 x Endure Element = 24 hours
4 x Delay Poison = 10 hours
4 x Water Breathing = 20 hours
4 x Greater Magic Weapon = 10 hours = +2 to hit/damage enchantment bonus.
3 x Magic Vestments = 10 hours = +2 AC enchantment bonus to only 3 party members.Then will sit down and pray at 11:00am to 12:00pm, and restore my entire spell slots.
Then will be ready for that Deep Underwater adventure vs Poison creatures, with a full spell list, and its Time to go Diving :)
Ya, lets get ride of the "can not restore spell slots cast in last 8 hours", rule !!
Except the 8 hour rule doesn't really stop this.
You minimum duration on all of those spells is 10 hours. Cast them 8 hours before your normal preperation time. Relearn all spell, and for 2 hours you have all of those spell + your newly memorized spells. 12 hours if you use a extend spell metamagic.
If the recently used spells rule was supposed to stop this kind of abuse, it is doing a poor job of it.
When do you start counting for your daily limit, though. Dawn to dawn, or midnight to midnight, or prayer to prayer 24 hrs later? There's a lot of room for compromise, here.Ta Dah! And this, friends, is exactly the reason for this rule. This covers the majority of situations where there is conflict between x/spells per day and "what I gotta do to prep spells..."
Those seeing it acceptable to nova just prior to prep, and then nova after are missing the point that x/spells per day exists.
Spells per day does not stop this though, because you can still cast late one evening, then early the next morning.
The 8 hr limit on usage at least means a minimum 8 hr gap between 'prior to prep' and 'nova' after.
Oh well, if you do not want to beat them, join them.
COOL
My 10th level cleric going to cast on my 4 part members (counting self), at 10:30 am:
4 x Endure Element = 24 hours
4 x Delay Poison = 10 hours
4 x Water Breathing = 20 hours
4 x Greater Magic Weapon = 10 hours = +2 to hit/damage enchantment bonus.
3 x Magic Vestments = 10 hours = +2 AC enchantment bonus to only 3 party members.Then will sit down and pray at 11:00am to 12:00pm, and restore my entire spell slots.
Then will be ready for that Deep Underwater adventure vs Poison creatures, with a full spell list, and its Time to go Diving :)
Ya, lets get ride of the "can not restore spell slots cast in last 8 hours", rule !!
Except the 8 hour rule doesn't really stop this.
You minimum duration on all of those spells is 10 hours. Cast them 8 hours before your normal preperation time. Relearn all spell, and for 2 hours you have all of those spell + your newly memorized spells. 12 hours if you use a extend spell metamagic.
If the recently used spells rule was supposed to stop this kind of abuse, it is doing a poor job of it.
Ah... but the question is, does your underwater adventure normal only last 2 hours, then your done.
Do you not perfer to have those spells up for a good 8 hours vs only 2
There is an advantage to scheduling your adventures, to get the Maxim effect out of your spells. And many player doing dungeons, will usally do one day of adventure for ever two days or rest and reequip.
Oh well, if you do not want to beat them, join them.
COOL
My 10th level cleric going to cast on my 4 part members (counting self), at 10:30 am:
4 x Endure Element = 24 hours
4 x Delay Poison = 10 hours
4 x Water Breathing = 20 hours
4 x Greater Magic Weapon = 10 hours = +2 to hit/damage enchantment bonus.
3 x Magic Vestments = 10 hours = +2 AC enchantment bonus to only 3 party members.Then will sit down and pray at 11:00am to 12:00pm, and restore my entire spell slots.
Then will be ready for that Deep Underwater adventure vs Poison creatures, with a full spell list, and its Time to go Diving :)
Ya, lets get ride of the "can not restore spell slots cast in last 8 hours", rule !!
Except the 8 hour rule doesn't really stop this.
You minimum duration on all of those spells is 10 hours. Cast them 8 hours before your normal preperation time. Relearn all spell, and for 2 hours you have all of those spell + your newly memorized spells. 12 hours if you use a extend spell metamagic.
If the recently used spells rule was supposed to stop this kind of abuse, it is doing a poor job of it.
Ah... but the question is, does your underwater adventure normal only last 2 hours, then your done.
Do you not perfer to have those spells up for a good 8 hours vs only 2
There is an advantage to scheduling your adventures, to get the Maxim effect out of your spells. And many player doing dungeons, will usally do one day of adventure for ever two days or rest and reequip.
That assumes that the PCs are in charge of the pacing of the adventure, which again is much more likely to happen at high levels than low levels. First-level clerics have TWO spells, which they have to try to cast at the most opportune time over a space of twenty-four hours. Isn't there a way to put some limits on high-level casters (if that's what you want to do) without the burden falling even more heavily on low-level casters?
(And, as an aside, if it's an underwater adventure, aren't we going to assume that the PCs are going to find some way to breathe underwater? If they don't have a cleric who can cast it, the DM's going to find some way to give them wands or scrolls or magic items that accomplish the same purpose, or there's no adventure.)
Oh well, if you do not want to beat them, join them.