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It's my understanding that when the Eidolon is dismissed, it leaves any/all carried gear behind. The reasoning for this is that it is a "Summon" effect. The thing is, I can't find an actual line anywhere that specifies that summoned creatures leave behind gear that they were given when their servitude is over.
Anyone know where this is actually explained?
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It's my understanding that when the Eidolon is dismissed, it leaves any/all carried gear behind. The reasoning for this is that it is a "Summon" effect. The thing is, I can't find an actual line anywhere that specifies that summoned creatures leave behind gear that they were given when their servitude is over.
Anyone know where this is actually explained?
Well given the fact the don't benefit from augment summons, I don't think its a normal summon effect. Its more like calling
Earlier this month a rule was quoted. I will see if I can locate it.
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So does the Eidolon keep equipment which it is given? Or does the equipment get left behind when the Eidolon is dismissed?
I've seen a couple of threads about this, but most seem to date to the Beta, and even then I couldn't find a consensus of opinion.
It was in the beta that a developer said it. I do think that it needs to be clarified though since many people feel that if the rule was not specifically reprinted then it no longer exist. There was also an issue of whether or not an Eidolon had to share magic item slots with the summoner since that was not in the final book either, but was stated in the beta testing.
If you believe beta intents are valid or whether you only go with what is in the book will determine how you read things. In any event I will FAQ this post to see whether the omission of the two above rules was an accident or on purpose.
The magic item thing is indeed in the book
Link (Ex): A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time. In addition, magic items interfere with the summoner's connection to his eidolon. As a result, the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conflict, the items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used by the eidolon become dormant. The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item.
Also it states it is treated as a summoned creature
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.
The magic item thing is indeed in the book
Link (Ex): A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time. In addition, magic items interfere with the summoner's connection to his eidolon. As a result, the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conflict, the items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used by the eidolon become dormant. The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item.Also it states it is treated as a summoned creature
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.
I looked for that phrase many times.
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So it *is* a summoned creature, but I can't find anything in the description of Conjuration (Summoning) spells which leads me to believe that the Eidolon's Summoned nature prevents it from retaining equipment given to it.
I know that I've been playing under the idea that summoned creatures don't keep gear which is given to them, but for the life of me I can't find *why* I've been playing that way - or at least any "why" which is supported by RAW.
Just to be up front, I'd prefer to say that Eidolons and other Summoned beasties carry gear hither and thither across the planes, but I'd like to know if I'm using a house rule, or if I'm playing by RAW.
So it *is* a summoned creature, but I can't find anything in the description of Conjuration (Summoning) spells which leads me to believe that the Eidolon's Summoned nature prevents it from retaining equipment given to it.
I know that I've been playing under the idea that summoned creatures don't keep gear which is given to them, but for the life of me I can't find *why* I've been playing that way - or at least any "why" which is supported by RAW.
Just to be up front, I'd prefer to say that Eidolons and other Summoned beasties carry gear hither and thither across the planes, but I'd like to know if I'm using a house rule, or if I'm playing by RAW.
It was a rule in 3.5, but I'm not sure if it appears in Pathfinder.
So it *is* a summoned creature, but I can't find anything in the description of Conjuration (Summoning) spells which leads me to believe that the Eidolon's Summoned nature prevents it from retaining equipment given to it.
I know that I've been playing under the idea that summoned creatures don't keep gear which is given to them, but for the life of me I can't find *why* I've been playing that way - or at least any "why" which is supported by RAW.
Just to be up front, I'd prefer to say that Eidolons and other Summoned beasties carry gear hither and thither across the planes, but I'd like to know if I'm using a house rule, or if I'm playing by RAW.
When you summon a creature you don't really bring that creature. It is an aspect. A creature has to be called for it to "really" be there. That is why a called creature can actually die, but a summoned one is not.
I know there is a section in the 3.5 DMG talking about summoned creatures and how they can't keep items you give them, and how you have to go to their plane to give them an item if you want them to have that item, but I can't find that particular ruling in the d20 SRD either.
I'm kind of curious if this is another "rule by assumption" issue, which isn't actually in evidence in Pathfinder. Kind of like how you can actually have neutral fiendish and celestial creatures now, and how summoned creatures may not be able to understand you because not every intelligent creature speaks common now, and celestial and fiendish creatures don't get an int boost so its harder to deal with them in combat.
When you summon a creature you don't really bring that creature. It is an aspect. A creature has to be called for it to "really" be there. That is why a called creature can actually die, but a summoned one is not.So it *is* a summoned creature, but I can't find anything in the description of Conjuration (Summoning) spells which leads me to believe that the Eidolon's Summoned nature prevents it from retaining equipment given to it.
I know that I've been playing under the idea that summoned creatures don't keep gear which is given to them, but for the life of me I can't find *why* I've been playing that way - or at least any "why" which is supported by RAW.
Just to be up front, I'd prefer to say that Eidolons and other Summoned beasties carry gear hither and thither across the planes, but I'd like to know if I'm using a house rule, or if I'm playing by RAW.
I understand that Summoned creatures aren't really present, but I'm still looking for the citation in the rules that says the aspect can't carry items back to the "main" creature when it leaves, allowing the aspect to bring them with next time.
I'm not trying to wheedle this one, I'm just not seeing where this is cited in Pathfinder.
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Thanks Wraith. However, that begs the question of from where in the cosmos do actual Eidolons hale, vice their temporary manifestations present in our reality? I suppose that's neither here nor there though.
I'm still not entirely sure that this string of thought will convince the more legalistic minded players, but it works for me.
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I know there is a section in the 3.5 DMG talking about summoned creatures and how they can't keep items you give them, and how you have to go to their plane to give them an item if you want them to have that item, but I can't find that particular ruling in the d20 SRD either.
I'm kind of curious if this is another "rule by assumption" issue, which isn't actually in evidence in Pathfinder. Kind of like how you can actually have neutral fiendish and celestial creatures now, and how summoned creatures may not be able to understand you because not every intelligent creature speaks common now, and celestial and fiendish creatures don't get an int boost so its harder to deal with them in combat.
Thanks KnightErrant, that's exactly where I'm sitting right now.
Thanks Wraith. However, that begs the question of from where in the cosmos do actual Eidolons hale, vice their temporary manifestations present in our reality? I suppose that's neither here nor there though.
I'm still not entirely sure that this string of thought will convince the more legalistic minded players, but it works for me.
I think the Eidolon should be formed as a result of the Eidolons link with the cosmos, but that is neither here nor there since according to the book the Eidolons already exist, but just are not that powerful until linked to a summoner.
Maybe eidolons don't have an actual form until given form by a summoner or it may be something a DM or players is expected to fluff out.
In any event I can't find the old rule, but I think it is one of those unwritten things that might need to be written.
according to the book the Eidolons already exist, but just are not that powerful until linked to a summoner.
Not true at all. In fact, the inverse is true; Eidolons do not exist at all until a Summoner summons them, and cease to exist when it is banished or dismissed, until it is summoned again. Even if you don't carry forward the 3.5 rule on summoned creatures and items, and even if you ignore that the Pathfinder rules states that only the creatures return where they came from, the fact still remains that Eidolons are only aspects of other creatures; they do not exist in their own right except when a Summoner makes them exist. Thus, their gear doesn't have anywhere to go when the Eidolon is banished or dismissed.
according to the book the Eidolons already exist, but just are not that powerful until linked to a summoner.Not true at all. In fact, the inverse is true; Eidolons do not exist at all until a Summoner summons them, and cease to exist when it is banished or dismissed, until it is summoned again. Even if you don't carry forward the 3.5 rule on summoned creatures and items, and even if you ignore that the Pathfinder rules states that only the creatures return where they came from, the fact still remains that Eidolons are only aspects of other creatures; they do not exist in their own right except when a Summoner makes them exist. Thus, their gear doesn't have anywhere to go when the Eidolon is banished or dismissed.
PRD= The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature.
Zurai is right.
Indeed he seems to be, which does explain that the gear has no were to go.
SWZ has spoken so let it be writ as law. :)
hehehe, it is interesting when we all three agree on something isn't it.
hehehe, it is interesting when we all three agree on something isn't it.
LoL, it is and we normally end that thread.
I have indeed noticed that pattern myself. We three have such opposing views that when we agree there is really little else to say :)
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Even if you don't carry forward the 3.5 rule on summoned creatures and items, and even if you ignore that the Pathfinder rules states that only the creatures return where they came from,
Thank you for the clarification Zurai. However, where do the pathfinder rules state that only the creatures return to where they came from? I see that it *only* states that the creatures return to where they came from, but the order of that "only" is very important.
I should clarify that I am asking for clarification on general summoning spells here - I agree with your interpretation of Eidolons in particular.
Even if you don't carry forward the 3.5 rule on summoned creatures and items, and even if you ignore that the Pathfinder rules states that only the creatures return where they came from,Thank you for the clarification Zurai. However, where do the pathfinder rules state that only the creatures return to where they came from? I see that it *only* states that the creatures return to where they came from, but the order of that "only" is very important.
I should clarify that I am asking for clarification on general summoning spells here - I agree with your interpretation of Eidolons in particular.
Aspects are not real creatures is his point. They are physical representations of another creature. As an example if I am a CR 30 demonlord and some mortal tries to summon I may not think it is important enough for me to go there, but I may create a CR 22 manifestation of myself. It looks and acts like me, but it is not me. Once the deed is done the, or the monster is killed the aspect would vanish into nothingness.
They say it returns to it's home plane, but if it never really existed it can't really return anywhere. Even if the aspect was a real, the fact that it is treated like a summoned creature, which is not a called one would prevent it from keeping the weapons.
If you summon a pit fiend, and I call the same pit fiend, only one of us can really equip it with weapons because only one of us has the real monster working for him.
I think it is time for Paizo to write a planar book. If they already have one I missed it.
So, fluff text from the Eidolon description not withstanding-
Is there currently a rule in Pathfinder that summoned creatures lose any items given to them during their stay, when they are dispelled/banished/dismissed/durations run out? Or is that just a hold-over "used to be a rule" from 3.0/5?
-S
So, fluff text from the Eidolon description not withstanding-
Is there currently a rule in Pathfinder that summoned creatures lose any items given to them during their stay, when they are dispelled/banished/dismissed/durations run out? Or is that just a hold-over "used to be a rule" from 3.0/5?
-S
The logic behind the 3.x rule was that the creature is not really there. If it is not there then how can it take anything. This was further explored by my last post.
"If you summon a pit fiend, and I call the same pit fiend, only one of us can really equip it with weapons because only one of us has the real monster working for him."
If you give him a headband of intellect, and I give him a headband of charisma which item goes back to where he came from when both the summoned and real version are dismissed?
To answer you question the rule has not been rewritten in pathfinder yet, but their planar book has not been done yet either.
P.S.: I hope they can get Todd Stewart to write it.
Thank you.
And I have no idea how I would treat that occurrence. Absent a rule saying the gear drops when he goes home, he'd keep whatever you gave him and keep whatever he brought with him.
Just makes it a bad idea overall to go equipping summoned pit fiends, I suppose.
-S
I'm not getting the logic here, though. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but it seems like this logic makes sense only because it coincides with the 3.5 rule, not because it makes sense on its own.
Summoning specifically states that, even though the summoned creature is an as aspect of the "real" creature, that it does go back to its home plane at the end of the spell.
Now, it likely merges with its original form when it returns home, we don't know. But to me, absent a specific rule stating otherwise, that is just as likely as the creature not being able to bring gear back with it.
I guess I just feel like this is making things more complicated for the sole purpose of trying to preserve a 3.5 rule that doesn't appear to have carried over.
I could be wrong, its just how I'm seeing this.
Thank you.
And I have no idea how I would treat that occurrence. Absent a rule saying the gear drops when he goes home, he'd keep whatever you gave him and keep whatever he brought with him.
Just makes it a bad idea overall to go equipping summoned pit fiends, I suppose.
-S
I'd imagine there would be one happy Pit Fiend collecting all of that treasure that its aspect get equipped with. The Eidolon has a special bond, so he's likely to keep sending his equipped form to help his summoner buddy . . . not so much with the pit fiend . . . ;)
I'm not getting the logic here, though. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but it seems like this logic makes sense only because it coincides with the 3.5 rule, not because it makes sense on its own.
Summoning specifically states that, even though the summoned creature is an as aspect of the "real" creature, that it does go back to its home plane at the end of the spell.
Now, it likely merges with its original form when it returns home, we don't know. But to me, absent a specific rule stating otherwise, that is just as likely as the creature not being able to bring gear back with it.
I guess I just feel like this is making things more complicated for the sole purpose of trying to preserve a 3.5 rule that doesn't appear to have carried over.
I could be wrong, its just how I'm seeing this.
Even other summoned monsters going back to 3.5 say "returned to home plane" or something similar, so the merging part may have some merit. So far Pathfinder has not strayed far from the tree(3.5).
The summon simply appears when it is summoned, and goes away when it is dismissed. I don't think it takes anything with it.If it does and you are swallowed by a summoned creature would you be transported back with it when it died. What if the summoned monster happened to disarm you and had possession of one of your items?
Either it takes items back with it or it does not, and if it can then summoning a monster, having it disarm an opponent or grapple/swallow someone, and then dismiss the spell would be a popular tactic.
I'm not getting the logic here, though. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but it seems like this logic makes sense only because it coincides with the 3.5 rule, not because it makes sense on its own.
Summoning specifically states that, even though the summoned creature is an as aspect of the "real" creature, that it does go back to its home plane at the end of the spell.
Now, it likely merges with its original form when it returns home, we don't know. But to me, absent a specific rule stating otherwise, that is just as likely as the creature not being able to bring gear back with it.
I guess I just feel like this is making things more complicated for the sole purpose of trying to preserve a 3.5 rule that doesn't appear to have carried over.
I could be wrong, its just how I'm seeing this.
Generic summoning spells don't summon an aspect of the creature; they summon the actual creature. It ceases to exist on its home plane and appears on the caster's plane. If it dies, however, it reforms on its home plane after a day. That's all explicitly spelled out in the Pathfinder rules.
Eidolons are different. You do not summon the actual creature. You don't even summon a copy of the actual creature. You summon an aspect of it. Aspects, in D&D/Pathfinder terminology, are semi-autonomous fractions of an individual creature's (usually a deity or other extremely powerful outsider) essence and power, which can be split off or re-absorbed more or less at will.
think of it this way. if summoned creature could holdmontonthings people would be summoning the celestialpackmmule then re summonsing it with all their treasure when they get to town.
i thought tom give a summoned create gear you needed to call it somehow. though don't know if youbcan planar ally an eidolon.
Loss of itemization seems like a rather huge hit to take for a class who's eidolon is the entire function of the class. I would think they need to make a special exception for the eidolon or your pretty well just screwed. Play a different class I suppose.
Even if you don't carry forward the 3.5 rule on summoned creatures and items, and even if you ignore that the Pathfinder rules states that only the creatures return where they came from,Thank you for the clarification Zurai. However, where do the pathfinder rules state that only the creatures return to where they came from? I see that it *only* states that the creatures return to where they came from, but the order of that "only" is very important.
I should clarify that I am asking for clarification on general summoning spells here - I agree with your interpretation of Eidolons in particular.
Aspects are not real creatures is his point. They are physical representations of another creature. As an example if I am a CR 30 demonlord and some mortal tries to summon I may not think it is important enough for me to go there, but I may create a CR 22 manifestation of myself. It looks and acts like me, but it is not me. Once the deed is done the, or the monster is killed the aspect would vanish into nothingness.
They say it returns to it's home plane, but if it never really existed it can't really return anywhere. Even if the aspect was a real, the fact that it is treated like a summoned creature, which is not a called one would prevent it from keeping the weapons.
If you summon a pit fiend, and I call the same pit fiend, only one of us can really equip it with weapons because only one of us has the real monster working for him.I think it is time for Paizo to write a planar book. If they already have one I missed it.
That sounds to me like it supports the notion that there are eidolon-like entities out there. After all, an aspect, by its definition, is based on something.
Sure the aspect of the demon lord in your example isn't truly real, but the demon lord is.
In that same vein, the summoned eidolon isn't truly real, but eidolons ARE out there, somewhere.
I wounder if their is a correlation with summoning "aspects" and the Astral Projection spell.
Even if you don't carry forward the 3.5 rule on summoned creatures and items, and even if you ignore that the Pathfinder rules states that only the creatures return where they came from,Thank you for the clarification Zurai. However, where do the pathfinder rules state that only the creatures return to where they came from? I see that it *only* states that the creatures return to where they came from, but the order of that "only" is very important.
I should clarify that I am asking for clarification on general summoning spells here - I agree with your interpretation of Eidolons in particular.
Aspects are not real creatures is his point. They are physical representations of another creature. As an example if I am a CR 30 demonlord and some mortal tries to summon I may not think it is important enough for me to go there, but I may create a CR 22 manifestation of myself. It looks and acts like me, but it is not me. Once the deed is done the, or the monster is killed the aspect would vanish into nothingness.
They say it returns to it's home plane, but if it never really existed it can't really return anywhere. Even if the aspect was a real, the fact that it is treated like a summoned creature, which is not a called one would prevent it from keeping the weapons.
If you summon a pit fiend, and I call the same pit fiend, only one of us can really equip it with weapons because only one of us has the real monster working for him.I think it is time for Paizo to write a planar book. If they already have one I missed it.
That sounds to me like it supports the notion that there are eidolon-like entities out there. After all, an aspect, by its definition, is based on something.
Sure the aspect of the demon lord in your example isn't truly real, but the demon lord is.
In that same vein, the summoned eidolon isn't truly real, but eidolons ARE out there, somewhere.
I think the Eidolon is shaped by the summoner will(insert other word as needed) instead of looking like an actual creature(whatever the eidolon is copy of), unless the summoner's will changes the actual creature itself, and a copy of that comes to help the summoner.
off topic but related: For simplicity's sake I just say the gear travels with the eidolon though. Being forced to reequip in the middle of combat is just asinine IMHO. I know the eidolon can be summoned before combat, but there may be a reason to not have it around.
PS:I think I will refluff the summoner to say that some being grants the summoner its power, and allows a portion of its physicial self to be used by the summoner. As the summoner grows in power he gets more access to the creature granting the power.
Equipping it during combat is not an issue as it takes a full minute to summon.
If anything, it's probably best that it doesn't take everything with it. Since the summoner and eidolon share slots, that means that while it isn't present, you can benefit from all of its gear.
Equipping it during combat is not an issue as it takes a full minute to summon.
If anything, it's probably best that it doesn't take everything with it. Since the summoner and eidolon share slots, that means that while it isn't present, you can benefit from all of its gear.
I did not know that. Nobody has played one in any of my games and i don't really get into a class until I have to deal with it.
I guess both side have their points. Is their a way(feat/class ability) to make it appear more quickly?
Summon Eidolon second level spell.
Summon Eidolon second level spell.
I had forgotten about that.
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I really like the concept of a summoner, but the execution that made it into the final class was horrible. It's just a giant bundle of exceptions that don't work like anything else in the system.
I finally rewrote it myself and basically halved all the armor bonuses and allow them to use a number of item slots equal to (summoner level / 2). Any equipment they wear stays with them. Also, they don't go poof if you fall asleep, but they can't be summoned until they heal all wounds taken if they're killed (# of minutes equal to their HP) on their home plane. Also made the limit on attacks a limit on all attacks, both natural and weapon based. The logic backing up the slots and attacks limit is that the eidelon's body is so maleable because it's an astral construct created by the summoner that the eidelon 'downloads' it's essence into, and since it's a construct, there's a limit on how well the summoner can construct that body, based on his level. So the higher his level gets, the better a job he does, and the more control and usefulness the body grants the Eidelon. The Eidelon can take the equipment back to it's home plane with it, and return with it when summoned again. The time to 'heal' is one minute per hitpoint as that's how long it takes the Summoner to regain the mental fortitude to reconstruct the eidelon.
Basically, in my games, a summoner is actually a specialized type of psionicist.