My player is playing a 3rd level Wizard/Evoker specialist. He has max hitpoints, epic stats (no stat under 13 with one 20) He has been knocked to negatives a few times, blown saves, missed on many touch/ray attacks due to bad rolls...I swear at times the dice could be cursed!
He's pretty disgruntled b/c he thinks the wizard is pretty worthless till he gets to 3rd level spells. He doesn't think the damage output at 1st & 2nd level spells is good enough mainly b/c he would have to hit on a D20 to do damage...except for magic missle.
The campaign is tough when its tough but pretty balanced overall.
So what do you all think about the wizard gripe?
He is now behind the party one level from missing a couple games and thinks that playing with higher level PC's only puts him at greater risk of dying. What do you all think?
Thanks!
If he's not having fun, he's not having fun. Maybe he can try a different character for a session or two?
I've never played a straight up wizard before; the only one I've played in 3.0 (Yeah--3.0) was a tiefling rogue/wizard that only dabbled in magic. We converted him over from a 2nd edition Planescape campaign, and the 3rd edition rules actually worked out better for the character concept--a rogue who dabbled in magic. I think he eventually went rogue 5 or 6 or 7/wizard 3.
Maybe he can take a level of fighter and then consider eldritch knight? Or a few rogue levels and arcane trickster? Granted, these all slow down his achievement of 5th level spells.
I've never been a big fan of wizards, or sorcerers for that matter. Too few hit points and non-spell combat abilities, and at low levels, they only get 2 to 5 spells per day, which can be burned in 1 encounter, which leads to them being relatively useless for the rest of the adventuring day.
At least Pathfinder gave them some cool school specialization and bloodline powers to make their adventuring day a little longer...
If he only wants to do damage he is better off not playing a wizard. If he is willing to play a support role he would be a lot better off.
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I have to agree, if he is looking to deal damage. Wizard really isn't the class for him then. They can do ok damage but they really shine in battle control type ways.
If he has his heart set on playing a caster damage deal, I would check out The Genius Guide to Rune Staves and Wyrd Wands by Super Genius games. They can boost damage by spells and can really make the evoker style wizard more effective. I posted a fairly indepth review of it, so you can check it out before buying it and see if that might help out.
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If he only wants to do damage he is better off not playing a wizard. If he is willing to play a support role he would be a lot better off.
+1. I switched from a fighter from a previous campaign to a wizard in the current campaign and boy does it take a lot of adjusting. Full casters take a lot of patience and finesse to play well and their dmg output/reliability cannot compare to the melee types. If this is not his style, I say switch to something else.
For an arcane caster being stuck a level behind is fairly crippling at those levels. It may help some if you bring his level to par with the group and dock him treasure or other in game rewards rather than exp for the missed time.
A lot of the arguments I can think of for the wizard being able to deal damage (specifically the evoker) pertain to higher level play. In this case, yeah, I would suggest doing backup like obscuring mist or invisibility. Never can go wrong at low level with invisibility.
At low levels Wizard damage sucks - plain and simple. And this won't stop with 3rd Level spells. So if your Player is holding his breath he will be in for some trouble.
But there are other possibilities: Grease, Color Spray, Sleep early on. Invisibility, Web, various clouds and then Haste and Stinking Cloud make a Wizard the best supporter.
If your player is a sucker for ranged damage he should play an archer.
I am playing an evoker (with the variant from APG that allows me to swap out elements on the fly). I trucked through the first couple levels as the most destructive force in the party, simply because my spells selected were "Burning Hands" and "Color Spray". I would find a cluster of bad guys, rush over and color stray before the melee could join in. Odds were I knocked out half the baddies and then let the fighters mop up the standing while I ganked the unconscious.
Not "top damage", but I did "One shot" several creatures out of combat repeatedly.
I'll agree with everyone else that (at least at low levels) a wizard isn't supposed to be dealing damage. I think of the wizard as the "screw with everyone" class. You get situation-changing spells in a wide variety that lets you have something useful to mess with a situation and neutralizes your foes. That isn't to say you get the killing blow often. You usually don't.
A wizard walks up to a fight, analyzes it, casts a spell (which say... makes the enemy all blind), then smirks as the rest of the party "defeats" the baddies.
Your player can prepare scorching ray in all his slots. Or acid arrow. But that's a waste.
Bottom line: in my opinion the best way to become interested in the wizard class is to see it played smart. Once you see a few tricks and techniques, it's suddenly a class full of potential.
Sounds like he is trying to blast things with his wizard and pathfinder wizards are really better at manipulating the battle. For example, Fireball can do a lot of direct damage, but statistically more damage is outputted by casting haste on the fighter in the party.
Have him change his focus to manipulating things. Buffing, debuffing, casting grease, color spray, obscuring mist. Wizards in pathfinder are champions of shaping the battle to suit their allies, not blasting things.
But nuking things with magic is still fun. :)
Remember he always has 0 level spells to throw, too.
If it still doesn't work, have him try alchemist or summoner.
If he just wants to be a blasty caster, there are a whole host of 3.5 warmage conversions sitting around on the boards somewhere. Some of them even make it an interesting class to play. He might be more satisfied with that.
Take a look at his spell sellections as well. If the saves being made against his attacks are an issue, steer him towards rays. If he cant hit the broad side of a barn, but is hard to save against he needs to stick to A.O.E. Also a switch to Sorc. might be in order, I find they make the better blaster anyway since they can actually spam the right damage spell for the situation.
Sounds to me like the player is going to be unhappy with a lot of the damage dealing classes. If he's having a hard time hitting a Touch AC, then he's going to be really unhappy when he has to deal with full AC.
If there is a way to see what his complete build is, maybe we can give some advice on how to play a damage dealing wizard (assuming that's what he wants to still play). Maybe he has selected the wrong combination of abilities to accomplish his goals.
Why would anyone make a blasting wizard? Blasting is recreational at best, when you can win the encounter by letting someone else do the damage. Save blasting for those encounters where it will make a difference. Like creatures with vulnerabilities, or monsters with ridiculous DR. Fireball is garbage compared to Haste, as a Fireball deals 10d6 at best, and the haste deals however much damage your allies are able to do on a reliable extra attack every round.
Enlarge the fighter using a greatsword, now "you" deal 1d6+2 damage every time he hits.
Blind the enemies so the rogue can get his sneak attacks. Who made that happen? You did. Who is awesome? You are.
Fighter is grappled? A simple grease spell, even from a wand or scroll, and you just made it so he can start doing damage again.
Get a bunch of mooks together in a cone effect, and disable them all with a color spray. Eat popcorn as fighter plays whack-a-mook.
All this is available at lv3, most of it at lv1.
It seems to me that if you want to play a nuker you play a Sorcerer.
My only complaint about the Sorcerer though is that it gets higher level spells too slowly.
Or a Rogue/Wizard or Rogue/Sorcerer who focuses on Ray spells so he can get his sneak attack damage if within 30ft.
You can't have players of differing levels because it throws off the cohesion of the group. Start by getting this guy up to par with the rest of the group and see where it goes form there.
...I swear at times the dice could be cursed!
Maybe his dice are Cursed
I know if have some mismatched color dice that roles bad more often than normal (came out a box set).
I also have some that tend to roll higher dice number more than normal, gray speckled i got from a hobby store.
If he is using his own dice, and rolling low number all the time, try swapping the dice out with him, and see what happens.
You can't have players of differing levels because it throws off the cohesion of the group. Start by getting this guy up to par with the rest of the group and see where it goes form there.
THIS.
...keeping him a level back is somewhat crippling especially as he doesn't earn extra XP to catch up in PF.
and THIS.
Both the groups I'm in have recently come to the conclusion that MISSING a game session is punishment enough for players who WANT to play and it's USUALLY not by their choice, but that of routine responsibilities. (family, work, etc.) Long story short we do not punish players for missing games, but we do our best to continue along without them as long as the majority attends.
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I also recommend a Sorcerer for a "Blaster" style magic-user. You only have a few tricks, but you can keep beating that dead horse all day.
At low levels wizards can still dominate by their Scribe Scroll ability on their max damage spells, or by choosing their 0th-level spells carefully. You can only cast once per round anyway, so why is choosing to keep four or six scroll cases on you a bad thing?
Where the wizard shines is making those scrolls is other members of the party with a high enough Use Magic Device to read those scrolls for themselves. Having every member pulling out a True Strike scroll followed by a Gravity Bow (APG) scroll means doing Large damage at range with a +20 to hit. Add in the Reach Spell feat (APG), and those "you" and "touch" spells become Close (25+5/2 lvls) even at 4th level. Scorching Ray is always a good 2nd-level choice.
Your player that hates Wizards needs to refocus, to decide if they want to be a damage dealer all by themselves or the guy who aids the rest of the team but can still hit on their own when needed. Craft Wand at 5th level will help some of the damage-per-round pain, as will the stereotypical Fireball-or-Lightning Bolt at 6th level. Even if they find a high-class wand right now, a good Spellcraft roll means they can be using it immediately.
I have been most effective with a arcane caster relying on mostly 'crowd control' and my trusty flaming sphere spell. At lower levels, flaming sphere is very effective, especially when you get a few on the big bad you just knocked out with color spray or hideous laughter. I say this because at level 3, a caster can deal up to 9d6 damage with each flaming sphere given combat lasts that long.
I tend to agree against 'blast' magic-users as a Wizard, they are really more of a 'utility' caster in most respects. Somewhere I saw a comprehensive guide on building wizards in PF, you might recommend your player to look at it if you can find it. There should be a link somewhere on the Wizards page of d20pfsrd.
If you want a really effective caster, use summoning spells.
I played a summoner once, not the class but a conjuring wizard who multi-classed cleric. Most fun I've ever had with a caster. Giant bees were lifting the halfling monk up to flying creatures so he could use flurry of blows against them. If you want to be even more creative, use levitate and summoned creatures to use falling damage to your advantage. ;)
More fun than a barrel of monkeys, just as fun as a falling barrel of monkeys.
Maybe he (or his allies) can buy a wand of some kind of blasty spell so he can get some consistent damage each round.
Sometimes a less optimal tactic, or build, or strateegeree, is more fun than the traditional or more optimal option.
It also sounds like he has REALLY bad luck with ranged touch attack rolls....maybe he needs one or more feats or items that allow a re-roll, like the luck feats from Complete Scoundrel or the luck blade or Luck Domain or chaos gnome race feature.
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So let me get this straight. Your party is doing nothing for two rounds but reading scrolls? What's the opposition doing in the meantime?
Where the wizard shines is making those scrolls is other members of the party with a high enough Use Magic Device to read those scrolls for themselves. Having every member pulling out a True Strike scroll followed by a Gravity Bow (APG) scroll means doing Large damage at range with a +20 to hit.
Not to mention drawing a scroll is a move action, using it is a standard. And unless you have a handy haversack it is an attack of opportunity.
Plus, scrolls cost money.
My player is playing a 3rd level Wizard/Evoker specialist. He has max hitpoints, epic stats (no stat under 13 with one 20) He has been knocked to negatives a few times, blown saves, missed on many touch/ray attacks due to bad rolls...I swear at times the dice could be cursed!
He's pretty disgruntled b/c he thinks the wizard is pretty worthless till he gets to 3rd level spells. He doesn't think the damage output at 1st & 2nd level spells is good enough mainly b/c he would have to hit on a D20 to do damage...except for magic missle.
The campaign is tough when its tough but pretty balanced overall.
So what do you all think about the wizard gripe?
He is now behind the party one level from missing a couple games and thinks that playing with higher level PC's only puts him at greater risk of dying. What do you all think?
Thanks!
I can only echo what else has been said here - an evoker at low levels is not a powerful character. he has to get out of the mindset that inflicting damage is the way to take down foes, pure and simple. He should have enough spells to trap, debuff and hinder them so that the rest of the party can deal the damage. His damaging spells should be the 'opener' or else the coup-de-grace, and don't need to be seen in between - his strength is in flexibility of spells, not power of them. At the end of the day a sorcerer makes a better 'blaster' but even they aren't that hot at it.
The only 'blaster' build I have made that really works at all levels is using psionics and taking Wilder using Expanded Knowledge to select some powers from the kineticist's bag of tricks. Reason being, their wild surge feature enables them to punch above their weight with damaging powers, and their 3/4 BAB helps them actually hit their targets at low level.
So let me get this straight. Your party is doing nothing for two rounds but reading scrolls? What's the opposition doing in the meantime?
Where the wizard shines is making those scrolls is other members of the party with a high enough Use Magic Device to read those scrolls for themselves. Having every member pulling out a True Strike scroll followed by a Gravity Bow (APG) scroll means doing Large damage at range with a +20 to hit.Not to mention drawing a scroll is a move action, using it is a standard. And unless you have a handy haversack it is an attack of opportunity.
Plus, scrolls cost money.
Actually, using scrolls is a full round action. Which makes it even worse. It's why I don't like to use scrolls in combat, as it takes two rounds to cast them. One round to pull out (with move action) the other round to cast (full round action).
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Actually, using scrolls is a full round action. Which makes it even worse. It's why I don't like to use scrolls in combat, as it takes two rounds to cast them. One round to pull out (with move action) the other round to cast (full round action).
You, sir, are clearly drunk.
Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
It's only a full round action if the spell you're casting is.
What are his feats, besides Scribe Scroll? If he plans on using lots of ranged touch attacks, he might want to consider Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus ray or whatever. Most of those will also help with his crossbow once he's out of spells, too. Toughness will give him some staying power. Scribe Scroll can be used to fill up on non-combat utility spells and pre-combat buffs, then he can fill all his regular spell slots with blasting spells.
Blasting can be a lot of fun, but it rarely turns the tide of the battle. I'm currently playing a dragon shaman 10, so I get a 5d6 breath weapon every 1d4-1 rounds, but that damage output is pretty tiny compared to the ranger archer or battle sorcerer using wraithstrike and pounce and 4 or 5 natural attacks.
Well, consider that at that level, the wizard would deal twice your breath weapon in damage and add a quickend 1st level spell in the top of that.
maybe not optimal, but the Dragon Shaman breath weapon is reliable, not powerful in damage - IMHO is not a good example.
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It was a perverted joke Ciretose. Think about it more close ;)I think of the wizard as the "screw with everyone" class.Charm Person and Alter Self help with this a LOT (and dominate later on)Charm person has a lot of limits.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/charm-person
Particularly for wizards who choose to make Charisma a dump stat.
Should have known from your prior oratory skill reference :)
Well, consider that at that level, the wizard would deal twice your breath weapon in damage and add a quickend 1st level spell in the top of that.
maybe not optimal, but the Dragon Shaman breath weapon is reliable, not powerful in damage - IMHO is not a good example.
Yeah, my dragon shaman is built for versatility. He's the party face (Skill Focus Diplomacy!), meat tank (high hps and high AC), healer (touch of vitality), occasional blaster, buffer (auras), and has a bunch of items that do battlefield control-type stuff.
Yeah, my dragon shaman is built for versatility. He's the party face (Skill Focus Diplomacy!), meat tank (high hps and high AC), healer (touch of vitality), occasional blaster, buffer (auras), and has a bunch of items that do battlefield control-type stuff.Well, consider that at that level, the wizard would deal twice your breath weapon in damage and add a quickend 1st level spell in the top of that.
maybe not optimal, but the Dragon Shaman breath weapon is reliable, not powerful in damage - IMHO is not a good example.
I know.. a player of mine has is as an half of a gestalt PC (other half being.. Dragonfire Adept!)
Is totally awesome and since the other class, too, is "special" somewhat, we all call it "monster".. in the sense that the way he plays is more similar to something in the monster manual than to a PC -and he generally chooses feats in monster manuals, draconomicon and so on !!!! ;)
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That...... and the fact that PF Alter Self sucks on a wizard lol.Should have known from your prior oratory skill reference :)It was a perverted joke Ciretose. Think about it more close ;)I think of the wizard as the "screw with everyone" class.Charm Person and Alter Self help with this a LOT (and dominate later on)Charm person has a lot of limits.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/charm-person
Particularly for wizards who choose to make Charisma a dump stat.
That's what she said.
You, sir, are clearly drunk.
Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.It's only a full round action if the spell you're casting is.
Thank you for the clarification.