The Flan, Oeridians and Bakluni are all described as kinda/sorta Greek or Middle Eastern/Semetic in coloration, all of which fits under the subset of 'caucasian' or 'white,' even if none of them but the Sueloise come anywhere near the actual color white, which almost none of us real-world 'white' people do.Sorry for leaving the implication that by 'white,' I meant white-as-in-the-forum-background, and not 'caucasian,' which, in Greyhawk, covers everyone (human) not from Hepmonaland or the Amedio Jungles. I will try to be more specific.
Deepest brown, copper, bronze, and golden are not 'white.' The Guide actually uses those descriptions. I think that you've simply missed the descriptions of the Flan and Baklunish. Please take a look in the Guide. You'll find the descriptions I had quoted and paraphrased. It's quite explicit about skin colors and how a considerable number of people in the Flanaess are brown or yellowish.
I'm just going by what the books say. Your WoG may be different. If your version of the world has a Flanaess is 'whitewashed' that's cool. I wouldn't make that change, but you are free to do so, of course.
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Deepest brown, copper, bronze, and golden are not 'white.'
The Flan, Oeridians and Bakluni are all described as kinda/sorta Greek or Middle Eastern/Semetic in coloration, all of which fits under the subset of 'caucasian' or 'white,'
As the bit I stated above indicates, I'm using the census definition of white, which includes 'olive' and 'brown' and 'coppery,' and not the definition of white that applies to the forum background behind this typing, which wouldn't even apply to albinos.
White as in 'not black, hispanic, native american or asian.'
Greyhawk does have 'black' people, and some that are some mix of hispanic and / or native american, both located in the southern jungles of Amedio and Hepmonaland. To the north, there are lots of different shades of caucasian, much like you'd find in Europe, with darker Mediterraneans and semitics and paler Scandinavians and aryans, all of them being 'white,' despite none of them actually being white, but various shades of pink, brown, etc.
Love the implication that I'm a racist for 'whitewashing' Greyhawk. Stay classy!
<waits to set ornamental sundial by the point at which the thread bursts into flames>
<sets sundial; leaves smartly>
Not meaning to be racist. Seriously. But I never thought that Semetics and dark medeterraneans were "white". I thought that was just the Scandinavians, Brits etc. Not meaning offense or saying one is better or worse, just not understanding is all :)
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Deepest brown, copper, bronze, and golden are not 'white.'
The Flan, Oeridians and Bakluni are all described as kinda/sorta Greek or Middle Eastern/Semetic in coloration, all of which fits under the subset of 'caucasian' or 'white,'As the bit I stated above indicates, I'm using the census definition of white, which includes 'olive' and 'brown' and 'coppery,' and not the definition of white that applies to the forum background behind this typing, which wouldn't even apply to albinos.
White as in 'not black, hispanic, native american or asian.'
Greyhawk does have 'black' people, and some that are some mix of hispanic and / or native american, both located in the southern jungles of Amedio and Hepmonaland. To the north, there are lots of different shades of caucasian, much like you'd find in Europe, with darker Mediterraneans and semitics and paler Scandinavians and aryans, all of them being 'white,' despite none of them actually being white, but various shades of pink, brown, etc.
Love the implication that I'm a racist for 'whitewashing' Greyhawk. Stay classy!
Hispanic is white (spanish)mixed with "native" (asiatic) so they are pretty much white too. Of course there is plenty of diversity in the "white" peoples too.
It's absurd the tussles we can get into over skin colour when it reveals absolutely nothing about an individual except for the assumptions unpleasant people might make about her/him.
Well, that and their relative propensity to look like a boiled lobster if they stay out in the sun for too long. Now where did I leave that sunblock cream, the weather forecast mentioned a break in the cloud-cover between noon and 12:15?
As the bit I stated above indicates, I'm using the census definition of white, which includes 'olive' and 'brown' and 'coppery,' and not the definition of white that applies to the forum background behind this typing, which wouldn't even apply to albinos.White as in 'not black, hispanic, native american or asian.'
Greyhawk does have 'black' people, and some that are some mix of hispanic and / or native american, both located in the southern jungles of Amedio and Hepmonaland. To the north, there are lots of different shades of caucasian, much like you'd find in Europe, with darker Mediterraneans and semitics and paler Scandinavians and aryans, all of them being 'white,' despite none of them actually being white, but various shades of pink, brown, etc.
Love the implication that I'm a racist for 'whitewashing' Greyhawk. Stay classy!
Racist? No, you've read way too much into that. I was just using colorful language (pun intended). I'd edit it if I were able. My intention wasn't to offend.
It's pretty clear to me that the range of skin colors is broad, and includes bronze, brown, and golden skinned peoples. Those actual words are used in the Guide. The Tenhas, in particular, are descibed as having a rich bronze coloration. Sounds more like American Indians to me than some kind of Pseudo-Europeans.
I urge you to go back to the source material and honestly take a look at it. You might find that I have a good argument.
Again, what you do with the world is up to you. I'm not an angry canonista, here to tell you that your WoG is badwrongfun because you've made the Flan into 'white people'. I'm just pointing out how your vision differs from the 'official' setting. That's not a negative judgment. Every DM can and should change things as he pleases.
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Again, what you do with the world is up to you.
Sorry if I jumped the gun. I'm a terribly judge of nuance on messageboard posts, and there is an occasional tendency to not-so-subtly turn 'I disagree with you' into 'you are wrongbad' in these sorts of discussions about race and coloration.
But I'm not changing Greyhawk. In the *real world* that we live in, Arabs, Greeks, etc. all sorts of bronze-y and 'olive-y' complexions are considered caucasian or white.
I didn't change Greyhawk to make it not have any black or hispanic or native american or asian skin colors north of Amedio and Hepmonaland (or, at all, in the case of asians), that's pretty much the way it is.
Even if Gary meant 'bronze' as in the color of the metal, and not 'coppertone tan,' that's still not a hispanic or native american or african skin tone or ethnicity, that's just a person who is the color of a metal.
The Bakluni seem to be described as arabic / persian / semetic in coloration (and, in some cases, in character and culture), while the Oeridians have more of a mediterranean / Greek-sounding coloration (since, IRL, Greeks are the people most likely to be called 'olive-complexioned'). That's not 'black people' or 'asians' or even 'native americans,' that's just a on the darker side of what we call caucasian or 'white' in this world.
I didn't whitewash Greyhawk. I didn't 'change the setting' to 'get rid of the dark people.' The 'white people' of Greyhawk (save for the Sueloise) are not pale northern Europeans, but are heavily settled by darker skinned 'olive complexioned' or 'bronzed' cultures that are well within what we call Caucasian, and more resemble southern and eastern Europeans, Arabs, etc.
Even the Rhennee, which seem to be based on the Romany people, count as 'white,' regardless of how 'swarthy' or 'dark' they may be.
It's a huge pointless tangent, that seemed, to me, to be devolving into a personal attack on me, for including western and eastern Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Gypsies, etc. under the broad label of 'white,' which is kinda the way it's done.
I should have avoided bringing real world classifications into the discussion and just said 'non-blacks,' since it's less a point of contention I suspect that there aren't a lot of blacks north of Hepmonaland and the Amedio.
Sorry if I jumped the gun. I'm a terribly judge of nuance on messageboard posts, and there is an occasional tendency to not-so-subtly turn 'I disagree with you' into 'you are wrongbad' in these sorts of discussions about race and coloration.
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Don't sweat it. I could have chosen my words more carefully, too. I've sent you an email apologizing for any offense I may have given. I think we should just chalk this up to varying interpretations of the material. That's the beauty of these settings- there's always more than one way to look at it.
We're cool?
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Even the Rhennee, which seem to be based on the Romany people, count as 'white,' regardless of how 'swarthy' or 'dark' they may be.
Gypsies are of indian decent, are you saying indians are white to you?
Indians are no more white than "native" americans. Why so hung up on "every description of darker skin is white unless it says black"?
Why do they HAVE to match RL racial groups?
Even the Rhennee, which seem to be based on the Romany people, count as 'white,' regardless of how 'swarthy' or 'dark' they may be.
Gypsies are of indian decent, are you saying indians are white to you?
Indians are no more white than "native" americans. Why so hung up on "every description of darker skin is white unless it says black"?
Why do they HAVE to match RL racial groups?
Well, I don't even think there ARE real world 'racial groups' in a meaningful sense. That's why I had to use quotation marks so often! :)
For what it's worth, I read 'deepest brown' and 'bronze' without trying to fit them into a quasi European arrangement. North American Indians were often described as 'red men' or 'bronze.' As an American, I naturally made that association. It doesn't hurt that the Rovers of the Barrens have often been portrayed as having certain 'Indian' elements to their culture.
The 'golden' skin of many Baklunish sounds 'yellow' to me, as in 'Asian.' The association is only reinforced by the Mongolian/Uighur influences apparent in the Tiger and Wolf Nomads.
Consider this: a Suel /Flan mix might easily yield a man with 'deepest brown' skin (Flan) and 'kinky'(Suel) hair. Sounds 'black' to me, not 'white.'
YMMV, of course!
Except what I've been asking for is for more diversity. Not some uniform innoffensive grey, but examples of people presented as people, not lumped under homogenous descriptors, and showcasing the positive and negative aspects of these cultures and what they're capable of.
I've never asked, "hey can we not have evil Bekyar?" I've asked, "hey can not have just evil Bekyar?" Same for the good-aligned nations.
Ah, I see, I see. In that case, we are in complete agreement. Please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding.
Considering Golarion's relative newness, it is a great opportunity to try often unexplored venues with the typically "foreign" (in reference to the usual Eurocentric tradition of D&D settings) cultures and truly make the best out of them.
I, for one, would enjoy to see something built upon the stark contrasts between the great cultures of Medieval Africa, such as Mali and Songhai, or the profound political complexities surrounding the Aztec Empire and their vassals. Pre-Islamic Middle East is also one of my favourite subjects. Golarion still has the room to try things like that without compromising what has already been built, and open the way for fresh, often overlooked material.
Truth be told, what bought me on Golarion was the reviews I read about Katapesh. I have always been enchanted by the Middle East, and Katapesh was everything I wanted for a campaign. And so far, it has been a blast playing in said location.
Regarding the "Nations With Alignment" thing: I have never really liked it as a system, but I understand its practicality. I see it sort of like "This is the stereotype most people within the game world have about this nation", rather than an accurate description of the ethical and moral structure of a culture. I mean, we could all understand if someone described the Roman Empire as "Lawful-Neutral", the Mongols as "Chaotic-Neutral" or, in order to fulfill Godwin's Law, the Nazi as "Lawful-Evil", even though all those cultures were far more complex and displayed examples of the entire alignment spectrum.
Ah, I see, I see. In that case, we are in complete agreement. Please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding.Considering Golarion's relative newness, it is a great opportunity to try often unexplored venues with the typically "foreign" (in reference to the usual Eurocentric tradition of D&D settings) cultures and truly make the best out of them.
Without Christianity or something like it, the various nations of Avistan are radically unlike either Medieval Christendom (I'm not using 'Europe' because it doesn't apply and isn't the same thing, anyway) or Early Modern Europe.
Thats funny because those Greeks, Arabs, Spanish and Italians look at the white folk and call us white folk :) Ie Brits, Irish, Scotts, Scandinavians, non Slavic Russians :)
Not like they or we are better or worse just skin different is all :)
Without Christianity or something like it, the various nations of Avistan are radically unlike either Medieval Christendom (I'm not using 'Europe' because it doesn't apply and isn't the same thing, anyway) or Early Modern Europe.
Well, while there is not anything like Christianity in Golarion (at least in global terms. I've always seen the Church of Aroden as a simile to the early Catholic Church, and Aroden himself as a diverging tale of the Messiah. Cheliax, on the other hand, has several similarities to the Byzantine Orthodox Church, at least in terms of organization), there is a lot of stuff that, in essence, is culturally Christian, which come by relation to the fantasy source Golarion draws from. Knightly orders, paladins, crusades, inquisitors, cathedrals, and a long et cetera, are still elements that remain at the core of Golarion's style and demeanour, in great part because those are staples of modern fantasy.
As long as you have any kind of element inspired by Western culture (of which Golarion has a lot), you are bound to have elements from Classical, Germanic, and Christian cultures, because that is what Western culture is made of. And it goes far deeper than just having institutions or nations that resemble those based on such cultures, but has a whole lot of interpretative and narrative elements that you simply cannot separate from the game world, such as the concept of the Hero as it is presented, which is heavily Germanic-Christian, the cosmology, which at its basis remains based on Platonic and Aristotelian principles, et cetera.
Thats funny because those Greeks, Arabs, Spanish and Italians look at the white folk and call us white folk :) Ie Brits, Irish, Scotts, Scandinavians, non Slavic Russians :)
Not like they or we are better or worse just skin different is all :)
Well, if we are going to discuss the real world issue, I'll weigh in:
There are ethnic groups that tend to be fair complected, sallow, dark, etc- but skin color does not equal 'race.' The mere fact that a Russian might have a similiar complexion to mine does not imply any significant cultural similiarity or even common ancestry.
The Catholic Irish, BTW, were once considered to be 'other' by many native Protestants in my country. Look at the old cartoons of brutish ape-like Irishmen and tell me that's not 'racism.'
As long as you have any kind of element inspired by Western culture (of which Golarion has a lot), you are bound to have elements from Classical, Germanic, and Christian cultures, because that is what Western culture is made of. And it goes far deeper than just having institutions or nations that resemble those based on such cultures, but has a whole lot of interpretative and narrative elements that you simply cannot separate from the game world, such as the concept of the Hero as it is presented, which is heavily Germanic-Christian, the cosmology, which at its basis remains based on Platonic and Aristotelian principles, et cetera.
Oh sure, it uses a number of vaguely 'Western' elements but it really isn't much like the Christian world after Constantine. No Church is a monumental difference, and not just because of political and economic implications. The whole worldview is profoundly different. Polytheism!
Oh, and I don't really buy off on the concept of something called 'Western culture', but we should probably discuss that elsewhere, lest we take the thread way off the rails. :)
Oh sure, it uses a number of vaguely 'Western' elements but it really isn't much like the Christian world after Constantine. No Church is a monumental difference, and not just because of political and economic implications. The whole worldview is profoundly different. Polytheism!
I wouldn't say they are vaguely Western; they are decidedly Western, regardless of the fact that they are mixed in several cases with elements from other cultural groups.
I mean, when I first began reading the Campaign setting, the first image that came to mind with most nations of Avistan were the European similes: Taldor as a mix of the Spanish and British Empires, Galt as Revolutionary France during The Terror, Mendev and Lastwall as the Crusader Kingdoms, the Lands of the Linnorm Kings as the Vikings, Ustalav as Bulgaria, and so on. Sure, each one has several unique elements that put them appart from real-world nations, but the fact that they are easily identifiable will real-world counterparts implies that there is indeed a heavy influence.
And that is reasonable. After all, Golarion was created with familiarity as one of its goals (at least that is what I understood from the commentaries released by Paizo in different occasions), and that means it is goes along the line of settings like Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, which are decidedly influenced by -among other things- Western culture.
Oh, and I don't really buy off on the concept of something called 'Western culture', but we should probably discuss that elsewhere, lest we take the thread way off the rails. :)
Aye, that is a debate that can derail us pretty far away from the central topic.
I'm influenced by Belloc on this count:
Europe is the Church, and the Church is Europe.
The only problem with his summation is that the Church goes well beyond Europe, and didn't cover large portions of Europe in the Early Medieval Period. He does address all that in his writings, though.
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I'm influenced by Belloc on this count:
Europe is the Church, and the Church is Europe.
The only problem with his summation is that the Church goes well beyond Europe, and didn't cover large portions of Europe in the Early Medieval Period. He does address all that in his writings, though.
Are we talking about the guy who considered Islam to be a major threat to Europe in 30's, while Nazis and Communists were just fine ? Well, the British were always noted for having major problems with understanding anything beyond their island :)
Are we talking about the guy who considered Islam to be a major threat to Europe in 30's, while Nazis and Communists were just fine ? Well, the British were always noted for having major problems with understanding anything beyond their island :)I'm influenced by Belloc on this count:
Europe is the Church, and the Church is Europe.
The only problem with his summation is that the Church goes well beyond Europe, and didn't cover large portions of Europe in the Early Medieval Period. He does address all that in his writings, though.
He was off by a few decades on the threat of Islamic militants/radicals, yes. Then again, he was looking ahead. I wouldn't say that he thought Nazis or Bolsheviks were' just fine.' I think that you've missed some of his ideas.
Are we talking about the guy who considered Islam to be a major threat to Europe in 30's, while Nazis and Communists were just fine ? Well, the British were always noted for having major problems with understanding anything beyond their island :)
Checked your profile. Poland, eh? Ah, well then I can see where you are coming from with the whole Nazis and Bolsheviks thing! Ah, and it makes sense that a Pole might be unhappy with the Brits for the handling of certain matters in the 1930s.
Thanks to Poland for saving Christendom from the Ottomans when the Sultan's armies were clawing at the gates of Vienna, BTW. Winged Hussars= angels of death!
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He was off by a few decades on the threat of Islamic militants/radicals, yes. Then again, he was looking ahead. I wouldn't say that he thought Nazis or Bolsheviks were' just fine.' I think that you've missed some of his ideas. I hate to ask- but have you actually read much of Hillaire Belloc's body of work?Are we talking about the guy who considered Islam to be a major threat to Europe in 30's, while Nazis and Communists were just fine ? Well, the British were always noted for having major problems with understanding anything beyond their island :)I'm influenced by Belloc on this count:
Europe is the Church, and the Church is Europe.
The only problem with his summation is that the Church goes well beyond Europe, and didn't cover large portions of Europe in the Early Medieval Period. He does address all that in his writings, though.
Yes I did, and I was pretty much dismayed at how much was his ball out of the park when it came to identyfing the real danger in the contemporary Europe. He was a very intelligent and educated man who simply saw a match burn a hundred miles away but couldn't see a forest fire next to his house. A common mistake of many academics, from all walks of thought.
And if there's anything we would ever liked to be thanked for, it's that whole World War 2 thing, especially in light of how did the Western (sic!) nations played us at the end.
Yes I did, and I was pretty much dismayed at how much was his ball out of the park when it came to identyfing the real danger in the contemporary Europe. He was a very intelligent and educated man who simply saw a match burn a hundred miles away but couldn't see a forest fire next to his house.
The 'just fine' comment struck me as farcical, but when you put it the way you have in this post, it seems much more sensible.
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Of course, he did eventually rise concerns about Nazis in the 40s, but let's be frank - the only serious thing you could do at that point was to enlist or buy some war bonds and hope for the best. The time for intellectual bell ringing was in the early 30s, back when something could be done about the Nazi power surge.
And if there's anything we would ever liked to be thanked for, it's that whole World War 2 thing, especially in light of how did the Western (sic!) nations played us at the end.
Yeah, the Poles got screwed. It's true. Perhaps we didn't have much choice, but it still sucks. I personally think that FDR was way too friendly with that genocidal monster Stalin.
Of course, he did eventually rise concerns about Nazis in 40s, but let's be frank - the only serious thing you could do at that point is to enlist or buy some war bonds and hope for the best. The time for intellectual bell ringing was in the early 30s, back when something could be done about the Nazi power surge.
Belloc was looking at the future, and militant Islam had been an major threat to Christian Europe in the past.
Now, it's true that Nazism fooled, for a while at least, some intelligent people into thinking it was mainly about fighting Bolshevism, and was not itself another Gnostic/millenarian/utopian assault on Christendom.
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OK, but now we're far away from the road as long as Pathfinder is concerned. :)
BACK ON TOPIC:
I think that many problems come from the fact that Paizo made the (IMHO correct) decision to draw parallels between Golarion and The Real World. The intent behind that was, obviously, to allow easier absorbtion of the setting (it's much easier to say, "Osirion is ancient Egypt with some twists, than it is to say "The Zomgoboria fuses elements of early medieval Russia, steampunk, modern Brasil and Klingon Empire").
However, with this came the fact that people instinctively attempt to project several historical/cultural/religious aspect of our world on Golarion, which is not always the case. Golarion mixes time periods and areas so much, that applying any real-world analogues is risky. For starters, there are no universal monotheist religions - that alone throws several tropes out of the window and introduces new ones in their place.
OK, but now we're far away from the road as long as Pathfinder is concerned. :)
BACK ON TOPIC:
I think that many problems come from the fact that Paizo made the (IMHO correct) decision to draw parallels between Golarion and The Real World. The intent behind that was, obviously, to allow easier absorbtion of the setting (it's much easier to say, "Osirion is ancient Egypt with some twists, than it is to say "The Zomgoboria fuses elements of early medieval Russia, steampunk, modern Brasil and Klingon Empire").
However, with this came the fact that people instinctively attempt to project several historical/cultural/religious aspect of our world on Golarion, which is not always the case. Golarion mixes time periods and areas so much, that applying any real-world analogues is risky. For starters, there are no universal monotheist religions - that alone throws several tropes out of the window and introduces new ones in their place.
Yep! You've made my main point with that last line. Thanks for getting us back on track.
:)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I mean, when I first began reading the Campaign setting, the first image that came to mind with most nations of Avistan were the European similes: Taldor as a mix of the Spanish and British Empires, Galt as Revolutionary France during The Terror, Mendev and Lastwall as the Crusader Kingdoms, the Lands of the Linnorm Kings as the Vikings, Ustalav as Bulgaria, and so on. Sure, each one has several unique elements that put them appart from real-world nations, but the fact that they are easily identifiable will real-world counterparts implies that there is indeed a heavy influence.
<snip>
I find this interesting, from my PoV, Taldor was Greek/Byzantine, Cheliax as Roman/'evil Catholic' and never made the crusader/lastwall connection. I'll admit i thought of them as the S/N Korean DMZ type.
Is it a good design when we get different images from the same setting?
Is it a good design when we get different images from the same setting?
Yes, I believe that it is.
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It's just that some ethnicities rarely get a fair break in fantasy literature. I can only think of two series that feature a heroic black central protagonist: Earthsea, and we all know how the adaptations of that screwed that up, and the Imaro books, and that's it. :(Farlander, Col Buchanan
Redemption in Indigo, Karen Lord
The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms/The Broken Kingdoms, N.K. Jemisin
Who Fears Death, Nnedi Okorafor
Shadow Blade/Shadow Chase, Seressia Glass (urban fantasy
/threadjack
I've in fact read some of those books, and others are on my to read list. To be honest, I have found Jemisin and Buchanan to be overhyped. I would be very interested to continue this conversation in another thread, though. Just point me to where. Last year I have read 77 science fiction and fantasy books, and I do better on most years. :)
/threadjack
I thought that the Iomedae was the Catholic Joan of Arc girl :) and the Chirch doing it right, and Saranrae the female interpretation of a Christian religeon from the dessert on Golarion and Cheliax as the Chirch gone horribly wrong... But thats just what I thought :)
See for me Taldor was England in the Decline, Cheliax as France if the Revolution lost to the Lords and the Lords got into the Helfire Club early... Andoran as Boston and area. Lastwall as a Crusades but standing still and Galt as France during the Revolution... Nurmathas is Robinhoods Sherwood.
The polytheism of Golarion seems vaguely Greco-Roman, to me. Of course, that's not to say that is is closely based on any actual pre-Christian religious practices of the Greeks, Romans, etc.
You have a pantheon of gods, some of whom were born mortal and became gods later. You've got gods personifying various aspects of nature and human ideals: love death, war, etc.
I would have said that Iomedae was more like Athena than like St Joan. YMMV
Maybe there's plans for a certain deity that wants to make it into a monotheistic setting.
Chew on whom that might be.
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Taldor as a mix of the Spanish and British Empires, Galt as Revolutionary France during The Terror, Mendev and Lastwall as the Crusader Kingdoms, the Lands of the Linnorm Kings as the Vikings, Ustalav as Bulgaria, and so on.<snip>
I find this interesting, from my PoV, Taldor was Greek/Byzantine, Cheliax as Roman/'evil Catholic' and never made the crusader/lastwall connection. I'll admit i thought of them as the S/N Korean DMZ type.
Is it a good design when we get different images from the same setting?
Similarly, I see Taldor and Cheliax as heavily influenced by early Italy, coasting on past glories and dreams of Pax Romana (long after the Empire was a historical footnote), and one step above warring city-states, but somehow convinced that they are the center of civilization.
I definitely think it's better if no one country maps that closely to any real world location, so that nobody can whip out some historical factoid and say 'you got it wrong!' Galt may be going through a 'Terror,' but it's not actually France, and their 'Terror' is much longer-lasting and has some supernatural evil sorts feeding off of it and keeping it aflame.
Maybe there's plans for a certain deity that wants to make it into a monotheistic setting.
Chew on whom that might be.
Rovagug! Just for a little while, in between eating the other gods and destroying everything else!
Rovagug! Just for a little while, in between eating the other gods and destroying everything else!Maybe there's plans for a certain deity that wants to make it into a monotheistic setting.
Chew on whom that might be.
But that's the easiest / predictable answer. Rovagug would be unconcerned about the designations between a polytheistic setting versus a monotheistic setting. He would be forging the path to do as you have described because it is in his inherent make-up to do so out of spite/hunger or whatever incomprehensible reason befits him. It doesn't serve his interests.
Who would really have such aspirations?
Hmmm ;) most of them, but I would put high on my list Asmodaeus, all the evil deities, Iomedae, Calistria, Erastil, I think the only ones I wouldnt put there are Irori (dosnt care) and Green Faith, more of an ideal than a god?
I dont know much of Byzantium to see it when people talk about Taldor :)
Hmmm ;) most of them, but I would put high on my list Asmodaeus, all the evil deities, Iomedae, Calistria, Erastil, I think the only ones I wouldnt put there are Irori (dosnt care) and Green Faith, more of an ideal than a god?
I dont know much of Byzantium to see it when people talk about Taldor :)
Well, there is the 'strategos' reference. Not much, but it is rather East Roman.
Rovagug! Just for a little while, in between eating the other gods and destroying everything else!Maybe there's plans for a certain deity that wants to make it into a monotheistic setting.
Chew on whom that might be.
But that's the easiest / predictable answer. Rovagug would be unconcerned about the designations between a polytheistic setting versus a monotheistic setting. He would be forging the path to do as you have described because it is in his inherent make-up to do so out of spite/hunger or whatever incomprehensible reason befits him. It doesn't serve his interests.
Who would really have such aspirations?
Why would most gods aspire to be the only god? Wouldn't most instead focus on their own spheres of influence? There's no real reason for most of them to want to eliminate or destroy their fellow gods, is there?
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It's just that some ethnicities rarely get a fair break in fantasy literature. I can only think of two series that feature a heroic black central protagonist: Earthsea, and we all know how the adaptations of that screwed that up, and the Imaro books, and that's it. :(Farlander, Col Buchanan
Redemption in Indigo, Karen Lord
The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms/The Broken Kingdoms, N.K. Jemisin
Who Fears Death, Nnedi Okorafor
Shadow Blade/Shadow Chase, Seressia Glass (urban fantasy
/threadjack
I've in fact read some of those books, and others are on my to read list. To be honest, I have found Jemisin and Buchanan to be overhyped. I would be very interested to continue this conversation in another thread, though. Just point me to where. Last year I have read 77 science fiction and fantasy books, and I do better on most years. :)
/threadjack
There's a whole Fiction subforum - perhaps you could start a thread over there?
Why would most gods aspire to be the only god? Wouldn't most instead focus on their own spheres of influence? There's no real reason for most of them to want to eliminate or destroy their fellow gods, is there?
Who can really speak of the gods? Do most gods aspire to be the only god? That would assume a majority. The question posed would be better as "Why would some gods aspire to be the only god?" Semantics, I apologize. :)
Are you familiar with the Judeo-Christian god with the appellation "Yahweh Sabaoth", meaning 'God of the Armies'? He is mentioned in that form at least 250+ times within the Old Testament / Tanakh; primarily within the section of the Prophets. When approaching its reading from a secular approach versus a sectarian one, it is intriguing to witness his hands-on activity from antiquity (i.e. Genesis / Bereshit) to its conclusion (which is concludes differently depending whether you're reading from the Jewish versus the Christian compilation) to where he no longer involves himself directly in man's day-to-day activities and is spoken on behalf of self-appointed prophets.
In the beginning, there were a score of gods where El and Asherah were the King and Queen of Heaven who sired at least 70 sons. Eventually, one gets to the (in)famous verse in Exodus (Shemot) 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me." There is an acknowledgement that there were other gods that others may be worshiping other than him.
You eventually get to passages in Deuteronomy and Kings where the Asherah pole are being torn down and El evolves into Yahweh whereas Ba'al designated as a generic word for 'god' becomes a titular name for a rival god from another tribe (or sphere of influence) and Asherah is now his consort. The title 'Yahweh Sabaoth' begins in 1 Samuel around the time where Israel is heading into the era where they will be ruled by kings versus judges. Note the amount of genocide and warfare and bloodshed that is attributed by or dedicated to Yahweh Sabaoth. It eventually boils down to the position that not only can you not have any other gods before him; there are no other gods; just Him. The rest of the gods are being picked off by attrition and it is his intent to pick up their spheres of influence through the means and ambitions of his followers.
At the end, only Yahweh remains; the Sabaoth appellation no longer necessary. He is lord and master of his empire; there are no others. Now there can be peace. He retires and retreats to an elderly, adoring fatherly role and let his self-appointed prophets carry about on their works in his name.
Please don't take this as actual theology or if this is my own personal view (as I have no interest in debating such on a site dedicated primarily for role playing games; unlike this ironically named forum); it is only a matter of observation to be able to apply toward the Golarion campaign setting with their existing deities. And who would be the most applicable to aspire in fulfilling this role.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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re: Godfights
Actually, while not specific to Golarion, if deities have human motives, I could see them fighting when they overlap. For example...
Rovaraug is the god of destruction. If he actually plotted and planned, then I could see him conflicting with the god of magic (evocation being destructive energies) sky gods (lightning is destructive) and even freedom (what's more 'free' than the ability to indulge in destruction). For the Realms analogue, look to Talos trying to steal 'destructive magic' from Mystra.
In doing their jobs they have to eliminate the other deity. Both Norgberger and Cyric have assassinations in their portfolio. If either of them were to murder another god, they'd just be 'doing their job'. Heck, if Norberger murdered Aroden and only he knows it, he's doung double duty in the portfolio. If he told anyone, technically one could argue he was betraying his portfolio.
Expansion. Not as much in Golarion, but in other realms (and Realms) different geographic areas have different deities. If (again using the Realms) followers of Torm invade and 'civilize' Maztica, then Torm and the Maztica deities could end up in direct conflict, instead of through their mortal proxies. Likewise, Wee Jas vs. a Baklunish deity of magic.
And there's the 'bad soap opera' reason too. Just ask Tyr. :-(
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Why would most gods aspire to be the only god? Wouldn't most instead focus on their own spheres of influence? There's no real reason for most of them to want to eliminate or destroy their fellow gods, is there?
I could see 'most' gods preferring that they have company.
Abadar and Asmodeus and Erastil and Torag (many of the lawful gods, really) seem to thrive on the interplay between themselves and the other gods, or the interactions between divine family / community.
Nethys is probably of two minds on the issue, as he is regarding most things.
Urgathoa is described in Gods & Magic as considering herself the enemy of no one, and to find the hate that Pharasma and Sarenrae have for her to be more upsetting than anything, since she just wants to be left alone to 'serve her hunger.'
Zon-Kuthon, given his treatment of his father, seems less interested in destroying other gods, than in subjugating them and binding them in the same chains of servitude (to who knows what outer dark patrons) he's bound in.
Desna and Cayden and Shelyn are suggested to be chummy in each other's company.
Iomedae started out as one of Aroden's stable of Starstone-upstart demigoddess hotties, and might miss the good old days when she had a (creepy nepotist possibly incestuous) sort of family.
Norgorber, a god of secrets and working in the shadows, would be utterly out of his element if he was the only diety. Hard to be 'in the shadows' when you're the only thing visible.
Sarenrae, like Asmodeus and Lamashtu, started out as an outsider and 'got called up to the big leagues.' She might have followers in Kel and Qadira who would see her as an all-in-one sort of diety, but she came up from the rank and file of the angelic heirarchy, and doesn't seem like a 'there can be only one' sort.
Lamashtu might like the idea of being the only diety, but she's got enough on her plate with at least one other demon lord (Nocticula?) attempting to join her in the big leagues, let alone Asmodeus and Sarenrae, representing other Outsiders-done-hit-the-big-time. Her big plan appears to be to pump out enough races like the goblins, gnolls and minotaurs, and have them kill everyone else's worshippers. But, since the minotaurs are increasingly turning to Baphomet, and the Goblins have their silly little demigods, that plan's going straight to hell...
The list of gods that might want to be the only one is pretty thin, as far the 'big 20' go. Given their domains, most of them wouldn't even really 'stretch' that well. Abadar or Erastil or Pharasma are among the few that I could see being able to maintain a decent monotheistic culture, and, of them, Abadar and Pharasma seem the most likely to actually be comfortable with such a scenario.
Rovagug as sole (surviving or active) diety would make for a Lovecraftian sort of 'the only gods are mad hateful things' campaign setting, or Conan-esque setting, where the only gods that seem to actually do anything are the nasty ones like Set.
And by 'nasty,' I mean, of course, terribly maligned and misunderstood. :)
I could see 'most' gods preferring that they have company.
Yup, that's how I see it.