Concerns about the Campaign Setting


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

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I've been sitting on this post for over a month now. Didn't want to post it back then because it seemed that there was a flood of PF bashing threads at the time and honestly I didn't want to add to the grief. Contrary to what some might knee-jerk conclude, I actually love the setting, although there are certain aspects I really don't like and flat out don't work for me. Please folks, don't turn this into yet another flameout thread. This isn't meant to scold or talk down to the devs. It's just to voice some things that have really been bothering me:

"

I hate to make this post so soon after loudly complaining about the lot of half-orcs and orcs in another thread, but it was kind of a snowball effect for me this weekend. There have been some things that have really been frustrating me lately about the setting, specifically the Inner Sea Region and how some of it has been represented.

To any Paizo folks reading, please don't think this is a hate-on. I love Golarion. It's just that there have been some things that have really bothered me, and I don't think I"m being overly sensitive on these issues.

All of the good-aligned lands in the Inner Sea Region are located in Avistan, populated primarily by "white" ethnecities or fair-skinned elves. There is not one single good-aligned nation in Garund, despite the wildly varied cultures. Avistan gets Andoran, Nirmanthas, Laswall, Kyonin. Couldn't Garund, which is pretty much as big and varied, have at least one? There's still some of the Garund continent left unmapped, and Erik Mona has said that things generally get more fantastic as you go south. If Garund is further explored in the future, in the revised Campaign Setting or later, could we please at least have a bone thrown our way here? Just one good-aligned land populated(and ruled) primarily by MWangi and/or Garundi? I'm not asking for a culture that's put on a pedestal, crystal spires and togas nonsense. I'm just asking for something just as idealistic as what their Avistani counterparts have. Especially after the most recently detailed city on Garund features the native populace being brutally exploited by Avistani colonists.

I remember begging SKR to give us some examples of Mwangi religious organizations just as idealistic and good as their Avistani counterparts in that upcoming "faiths of good" book. Believe me, I was entirely sincere and desperate to see some positive representation in that area.

And about the Mwangi specifically: Representation in art. I've complained about this in the past before, especially after being severely disappointed with how it turned out in Heart of the Jungle. I had really been looking forward to seeing the diverse Mwangi cultures visually explored just as Dark Markets had done for Katapesh, Guide to Darkmoon Vale did for its natives, etc. When it finally came out, the only Mwangi shown in the entire book were shooting arrows at the iconics from the shores....

I understand that the artists who didn't pay attention to their instructions were to blame there, but it's something I had hoped to see remedied throughout Serpent's Skull. So far it's just felt hit and miss, personally. SPOILERS FOR THAT AP

Spoiler:
One friendly NPC featured in art plays to the "white jungle girl" trope that could have easily have been Mwangi. The druid in the lillend's cult is more than a bit pale for a Mwangi of that area(I honestly thought it was another "colonist gone native" guy at first glance.
At least there's been the Pathfinder's Journal so far. If it gets better as it goes along, awesome. It's just that it's been a bit of a disappointment with an AP I've been very much looking forward to, specifically because it was set in the Mwangi Expanse. I'm also hoping that Nex and Geb(and Alkenstar) don't fall victim to this. That the two largest magocracies in the region are populated primarily by dark-skinned peoples was certainly a welcome change from the ethnocentric "norm" we've been stuck with for so long. I'm really hoping what happened in Heart of the Jungle doens't happen in any books exploring those lands in detail.

(addendum: Unfortunately it happened again with the current web fiction going on in Alkenstar)

Another thing about the Mwangi Expanse: The wild elves that live there. It's always been frustrating when all the "good" demihumans are all too often different shapes and sizes of white people. And all too often, when those races are described in the text as dark-skinned, they're drawn as fair-skinned anyway. The one humanoid player race that is explicitly "not white", half-orcs, gets treated with the "ugly and dumb" stigma while everyone else gets a bunch of positive qualities listed as their features.(this is another reason why I'm such a staunch supporter of half-orcs and orcs). So anyway, we have some wild elves living in the Mwangi Expanse. The one time we see them in art that I know of(River Into Darkness) they're drawn as fair-skinned. If this hasn't been locked into Golarion canon yet, could we please at least up their melanin count to bring them at least a little closer to the other native peoples? That elves all too often(frustratingly so) get treated as "just better" makes it even worse when they're fair-skinned and living near dark-skinned peoples.

Back to the Mwangi again, the Bekyar. I really loved that "the Mwangi" was pointed out to be simply a blanket term used for multiple ethnecities, each as distinct as Varisians are from Chelaxians, and so on. But the Bekyar have always bugged me. I know it's "pulp" but the notion of an entire ethnicity of people being defined by demon worship and slavery just irritates me. No Avistani ehtnicity is defined in solely negative terms? So why the Bekyar? I don't know if a single good Bekyar has shown up in print anywhere, but I hope some do. If I'm uncomfortable with non-human races being universally defined as villains, I'm even moreso when human ethnicities get stuck with that. It wouldn't be so bad if it were simply "Many of the Bekyar are trapped within a culture of demon worship yadda yadda, though not all adhere to such ways." but I don't remember them even getting that.

And then there's the civilization being discovered in Serpent's Skull in the middle of the Mwangi Expanse, (SPOILERS AGAIN)

Spoiler:
which is actually Azlanti in origin. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but combined with everything else listed above and remembering how often lost advanced civilizations in the middle of Africa or South America have been attributed to "lost tribes of white men" by both pulp authors and ethnocentric historians and explorers(something distressingly common in the Victorian Era)...taken with all that it just bugs me.

And please please, for the love of God, don't let "skraeling" become an "acceptable" term for native Arcadians. A quick search of the forums shows that it's already finding easy use for just that. It would be like referring to Mwangi and Garundi with antiquated racial slurs, which is pretty much what "skraeling" is. (to be honest, letting an analogue of a native people be named by the analogue of people that invaded their lands makes me uneasy anyway)

Again, I don't want this to sound like a bashing of the setting. It's just that these things have really been bothering me lately, and there are some pitfalls that can still be avoided. I really do love Golarion. It's just that I'd hate for it to fall into the things that have frustrated me with the fantasy RPG scene for so many years.

Feels better, letting it all out.


Without going into too much, I think that the text in both Elves of Golarion and Dwarves of Golarion have mentioned that the more southern branches of both races are darker skinned.

I think in some cases this is a matter of artists not being as up on racial variation in Golarion, and the Paizo guys not having the freedom to have the art reworked to match what it should.

I will say that, while there may not be as many good aligned cultures, I was impressed that Garund does seem to have more educated and advanced cultures on average than the northern nations.


I like Golarion as well and I really like the fact that it's really fleshed out during the AP's as well as the location/geography/race books.

I also give the the Paizo devs MAJOR PROPS for making the world and the characters in it diverse.

I understand that some of these things bother you immensely, but 10 years ago would we have even seen this kind of diversity in an RPG? I mean this hobby is still overwhelmingly WHITE and MALE (less so male these days I think though?) so the game is bound to reflect that viewpoint.

There's an AMAZING book from Atlas Games called Nyambe African Adventures which came out during the 3E era which can be used to flesh out / add more flavor to the Mwangi Expanse in a file the serial numbers off sort of way.

I know that's not what you're looking for, but I've pretty much learned NOT to seek solidarity for things like this on RPG message boards because the majority of the people that populate them are fairly apathetic if not occasionally hostile to anything that's not either Eurocentric or Asian in influence and especially if it's Afrocentric in tone.

I will say that that these boards are more tolerant than most though. But in the end for your own games it's just better to sort this sort of thing out yourself.

Grand Lodge

Hmmm, food for thought.
Glad you brought it up.
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When I think of societies of Garund (south of the big desert) I think of Sargava (from Cheliax), The Shackles (Avistan-originated Pirates) and the Mwangi natives -- on one side. And on that western side the Avistan peoples are the bad guys (hegemony, slaving, resource plundering...) and the Mwangi are the good guys, people who live their lives in their home areas. As always in gaming, the good guys have to be weaker so the PCs can help them. In fact, there's a Pathfinder Society Scenario where PCs begin to realizie this fact and deal with it.

On the other side, East, Katapesh is the only society not revolving around an ancient wizard-king war and I don't really see any problem with Katapesh.

Admitedly, I don't like Osirion, Thuvia, Rahadoum and whatever else is north of the big desert -- it ain't my taste and I pretty much ignore it . . . . But, aren't they pretty neutral?...


W E Ray wrote:


Admitedly, I don't like Osirion, Thuvia, Rahadoum and whatever else is north of the big desert -- it ain't my taste and I pretty much ignore it . . . . But, aren't they pretty neutral?...

Osirion, at least, is LN. I haven't paid attention as much to the southern reaches of the Inner Sea because my campaigns haven't gone there, frankly. I admit to bias, however; I'm a Medieval History buff. Avistan holds more interests for my area of study.

I suspect part of it (at least in cases like Osirion) is that it's difficult to portray the ancient egyptian style culture in its whole (Slavery, etc) while still adhering to the usual criteria for a Good Alignment. I get what the OP is trying to say, though.

Part of it is also the fact that Golarion intentionally evokes the feel of the old 30's era sword-and-sorcery pulp stories like those of Robert E. Howard etc. Those stories were chalk full of racist undertones and foreign exoticism. While the creators have done a great deal towards lessening that, traces of it still remain as window-dressing. I think it's probably looking a little too deep to see it as more then that, though.

Chalk me in for a vote for non-white elves, though, and good aligned garundi civilizations, if for no other reason then curiosity about how you guys at Paizo would meld it with Golarion's pulpy flavor (which I am loving, BTW)


I would be extremely concerned if Paizo shapes Golarion in order to avoid any commentary about skin colors, I'm ok with an elf nation being the only 100% good society in the world, I wouldn't expect anything else from Tolk...D&D elves.
About the pictures, variety is always good, just no more ancient greece deities with weird skin colors.


Mikaze wrote:
Back to the Mwangi again, the Bekyar. I really loved that "the Mwangi" was pointed out to be simply a blanket term used for multiple ethnecities, each as distinct as Varisians are from Chelaxians, and so on. But the Bekyar have always bugged me. I know it's "pulp" but the notion of an entire ethnicity of people being defined by demon worship and slavery just irritates me. No Avistani ehtnicity is defined in solely negative terms? So why the Bekyar? I don't know if a single good Bekyar has shown up in print anywhere, but I hope some do. If I'm uncomfortable with non-human races being universally defined as villains, I'm even moreso when human ethnicities get stuck with that. It wouldn't be so bad if it were simply "Many of the Bekyar are trapped within a culture of demon worship yadda yadda, though not all adhere to such ways." but I don't remember them even getting that.

This is far from a comprehensive response, but regarding the Bekyar at least:

Spoiler:
In "Plague of Light," the Pathfinder Journal for Serpent's Skull, one of the main characters is a Bekyar warrior who's a fairly complex character and part of the band of heroes; the other Bekyar characters are portrayed more as being mercenary than anything (I don't believe there was any mention of demon worship, for example, though one was a slaver).

Contributor

Thanks for your post Mikaze - your concerns are valid and we do like to hear feedback from our customers!


It's a fantasy world. Just say that in your world, the XYZ race is dark skinned. There, it's fixed.

But then, I'm one of those that considers published RPG products to be imagination primers and not chiseled stone tablets of law.....


Mikaze wrote:
Back to the Mwangi again, the Bekyar. I really loved that "the Mwangi" was pointed out to be simply a blanket term used for multiple ethnecities, each as distinct as Varisians are from Chelaxians, and so on. But the Bekyar have always bugged me. I know it's "pulp" but the notion of an entire ethnicity of people being defined by demon worship and slavery just irritates me. No Avistani ehtnicity is defined in solely negative terms? So why the Bekyar? I don't know if a single good Bekyar has shown up in print anywhere, but I hope some do. If I'm uncomfortable with non-human races being universally defined as villains, I'm even moreso when human ethnicities get stuck with that. It wouldn't be so bad if it were simply "Many of the Bekyar are trapped within a culture of demon worship yadda yadda, though not all adhere to such ways." but I don't remember them even getting that.

This is far from a comprehensive response, but regarding the Bekyar at least:

Spoiler:
"Plague of Light," the Pathfinder Journal for Serpent's Skull, one of the main characters is a Bekyar warrior who's a fairly complex character and part of the band of heroes; the other Bekyar characters are portrayed more as mercenary than anything (I don't believe there was any mention of demon worship, though yes, one was a slaver).

Also, I'm not sure what's planned for southern Garund, but in the part that's currently developed, while nations of any sort are fairly thin on the ground, the city-state of Nantambu in the Mwangi Expanse is NG, and dedicated to learning and preserving Old-Mage Jatembe's legacy.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

A lot of the elves of Garund have dark skin. I'm sure we will illustrate some of them some day, but until the Serpent's Skull AP (and Heart of the Jungle) we hadn't really done too much development on Garund south of Osirion. This sort of development will come with time.

Some cultures are evil. The Bekyar are mostly evil demon worshipers. Sorry about that. There are plenty of non-evil dark-skinned folk.

The new campaign setting shows the rough outline of Garund south of the Field of Maidens, and I think people are going to freak when they see how much is left to be developed. We drop the names and rough cultural outlines of a ton of those places in the revised "beyond the Inner Sea" chapter (which now contains a section of southern Garund), and there is definitely room for more traditionally "good" countries. Again, we will get to these eventually, but since there are a lot of countries in the Inner Sea region proper we still haven't covered, it may take us longer than you'd like.

"Skraeling" is what the Linnorm King explorers call the natives of the part of Arcadia they settled. It's certainly not what those natives call themselves, or what we will call them when/if we get around to fully detailing them.

A lot of our Garund stuff is pulp-derived, but there are plenty of non-white ancient cultures floating around Garund, such as the Shory (get it, "floating"?). Again, we'll see more of this as time goes on.

Contributor

As Erik pointed out, the Bekyar are big on slavery and demon lords. To me, it seems *more* racially sensitive to emphasize that they're just one subgroup, so as to make sure the rest of the Mwangi ethnicities don't get slapped with a similar stereotype.

In my mind, Garund is awesome, and the dark-skinned folks who live there do pretty well for themselves. It's true that Azlant may be where most of human civilization originally arose (and yeah, they're pretty pale, but most of our own ancestors are Middle Eastern if you go back far enough). Yet Osirion created a huge empire that managed to stick around into the modern era. Dark-skinned folks run the most powerful magical kingdoms (Geb and Nex), invented firearms in Alkenstar, discovered the secret to eternal youth in Thuvia, rejected the gods in favor of self-determination in Rahadoum, and generally kick ass across the board. There are dark-skinned heroes of legend like Old-Mage Jatembe (who's probably one of the more powerful figures we've mentioned), and at least one upcoming novel set in Garund. The Mwangi's primary interactions with white-skinned folks as shown so far tend to be as equals through trade or as heroic underdogs against the Chelaxians in Sargava. Whether civilized or living in harmony with nature, we've tried to present the southern races in a generally positive light. (And yeah, I'd like to see some more art of Mwangi folks, but we're working on it. And before you call foul on the Alkenstar web fiction, wait until you see the Ironmaster.)

As for official alignments... well, I'm not a big fan of giving nations alignments anyway, so my advice would be to take those with a grain of salt. But that's just *my* opinion.

In short: whether or not we're succeeding in a fair and balanced representation of the various ethnicities, we're trying.


James Sutter wrote:
As for official alignments... well, I'm not a big fan of giving nations alignments anyway, so my advice would be to take those with a grain of salt. But that's just *my* opinion.

I always saw nation alignments representing government policy as opposed to that of everyone who lives there. Though my Shoanti alter ego will now doubt kick me in the stones for saying this, not all Chelaxians are evil for example. Government policy in Cheliax on the other hand is.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Right.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Alignment shmalignment, Andoran might be NG but it has Falcon's Hollow, which is to me even more dystopian and hopeless than, say, Evil Den of Grimdark Evil that Nisroch is.


+1

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
James Sutter wrote:
... whether or not we're succeeding in a fair and balanced representation of the various ethnicities, we're trying.

I'm not the OP, but THIS ^ is what I hope for from Paizo - an awareness of the issue, a sensitivity to some historic biases (both in RL and fantasy), and an effort to do better.

I'm a huge fan of Nyambe and also one from Kenzer & Co called Svimohzia. The latter has a Romanesque African empire and other advanced civilizations in an Africa-like continent. Paizo has already used stats for several Nyambe monsters and hopefully they'll take some hints for cultures as well. I have confidence that they will. Golarion has a lot of pulp influences, which come with some of the baggage of the times, but they're also trying to create something unique, and developing some of the cultures that got the short end of the stick in history and traditional fantasy is a great way to do that.

Scarab Sages

My take from reading Heart of the Jungle, Sargava, the Lost Colony, and other related products is that the really evil people in the Mwangi area were the “white” outsiders, such as the Shackles pirates, Chelaxian colonizers, Aspis Consortium exploiters, random hunters/miners/slavers etc. The various Mwangi peoples/tribes themselves are often the noble victims, the underdogs. What bothers me about Pathfinder’s treatment of the Mwangi area is that it is too close to all the old 30‘s pulp fiction tropes. I suppose that makes it more familiar and accessible for GMs and players, but for me it was disappointingly similiar.

I’ve been putting a lot of thought into developing the Mwangi area for my campaing because I’ve set my Shackled City adventure path game there and want the local culture to permeate the story.


The iconic paladin is dark skinned Garundi, right? My take on the books on the Mwangi Expanse is that there are a lot of the iconics and very few of other people. The Sargava book has a buff looking tribal warrior and a cleric. Very little about the others. Maybe the Inner Sea book will have more. In Lyrics of Extinction, there are no pictures of anyone, I think, except a person who is supposed to be a Mwangi native's spirit, but it looks more like she is just a ghost in chains lifted from an art archive.

Personally, I think there are way too many pictures of the iconics generally. These guys get everywhere and do everything! Leave some for everyone else! ;-)

Silver Crusade

Thanks guys. Response has been comforting at the very least, knowing you folks are listening. :)

I'll give the Journal fiction in Serpent's Skull another look and keep my eye on the Alkenstar fic.

I'm actually really excited to see the stuff on Southern Garund in the new CS. That and Vudra have been at the top of my most wanted list for exploration for a long time. I'm really eager to see the new cultures you're going to be hinting at, especially any that fit the bill for serving as an idealistic Garund counterpart to nations like Lastwall, Nirmathas, and etc.

On Mwangi being the heroic underdogs in Sargava, that's what I had initially hoped would be pushed when I first read about the place, especially with the tiny details about how they were led by a mummified boy-king which seemed to scream awesome values dissonance to be explored between the warring cultures. Then Walkena turned out to be lawful evil... Still, glad to hear that that's the intended role for the Mwangi tribes in general in that area.

Thanks for listening guys. <3

(Actually own Nyambe and picked up Svimohzia at last GenCon. Some very good stuff to pull from. :) )


I do have to say, with Serpent's Skull and the Heart of the Jungle book I was really hoping for more good stuff about the Mwangi too, and it seemed like there just wasn't that much. I mean, there's some in there, like you can say there's a good Mwangi culture depiction in the city of Nantambu (founded by Old-Mage Jatembe), but it is unfortunate that it's at such a remove from the actual AP. Somewhat bizarrely, natives aren't even on the Mwangi random encounter tables in HotJ, which gives this kind of feel where you wander around and meet critters but the whole land is treated as more of a "untracked wilderness" than "home to millions of people."

Having said that, I don't think the depictions are awful or anything, but as someone interested in the Expanse, who has players running Mwangi characters, and is using Nyambe to fill in gaps (reeeeally considering giving the Ekujae elves tails, for example), I was hoping for more. Actually, I have been reading the fiction in the AP keenly because it has more useful flavor tidbits for the various cultures than a lot of the text...

Now, I do realize this is a bit of a Catch-22, as going into Mwangi culture more, having more art depicting Mwangi, etc. will lead to inevitable cries of racism as someone won't like something about some part of it. So, there's that.

Players are interested in it though. In our new campaign, we had one Ulfen, one Chelaxian, one Garundi, one Mwangi, and one halfling... The Mwangi and really even more so the Garundi, I had a heck of a time finding info to feed them to help flesh out characters.


If you think about it the white nations are not very good either...
Linnorm Kings are Vikings... Irrisen are White Witches (from Fairy Tales not the Wiccan kind), Chelaxians are French demon worshippers, Taldor is a decadent England with a snyde sniveling twit on the throne much like a Prince John. Galt is France durning the French Revolution, only it never ends... That Vassal State of Cheliax has demon worshipping Druids... the River Kingdomes are all Robber Barons... and one kindomes main income is assassinations... Usatlav is Russian Politic meats Transilvania... Brevoy is Russian Politic between the Taiga and the River Kingdomes and one of the families is a Pirate Family from the big lake up there... And none of these countries are nice to their pesants! Then there is Varisia wich is frontier, and the Only city there that can be classed as good is Magnimar... Riddleport is Pirate... Kaer Maga is screwy, and Korvosa is a mini Paris that wants to be Chelaxian... The really only good nations are the Elves, Dwarves, Lastwall, Andoran, and the bunch holding back the worldwound. And them only the Lady Paladin in her city, the rest of them in that country are circomspect...


I'm pretty keen on more Mwangi stories, including having PCs either from the native cultures themselves or at least having lived there as colonials all their lives. I'm posting a new thread on this in General Discussions but I don't know how to track updates.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

It almost seems like being the good guys is the job of the player characters.

Contributor

Also to consider is that the Mwangi expanse might be best looked at as less like the nation-states of Avistan and elsewhere in Garund and more as a large ungoverened region with a mash of distinct city-state powers each with limited power over the surrounding lands and their villages. And those city-states have a pretty wide range in alignment and culture. Nantambu for instance is NG.

As for the demon worship, given the region's history it might be possible that demon worship was introduced into the region by early Azlanti refugees (Zurakai?), or via some of the non-human races, rather than being a case of evil savages. I tried to spread a good bit of varied background in the portions I worked on in the book.

Contributor

I'm hoping there'll be somewhere like Timbuktu somewhere on the continent. I was thinking that the Mali-esque spot might be Nex, due to its love of scholarship, but looking at the illo of the Arclord, he looks more Moroccan, so I'm guessing Nex is more Marrakesh.

Is there a Timbuktu analogue currently established?


Saying Magnimar is Good is being generous. The way I read it, it was an ultra-capitalistic and thoroughly corrupt city with widespread poverty and crime.

Being an old-school liberal, what strikes me is that political correctness actually makes it far more difficult to deal with these issues. Throughout history, our sense of what a human is has expanded, but everything outside the current circle of human-beings is typically defined as horrible, monstrous, evil, degenerate, and so on. One of the top reasons for this is a political motivation to define an enemy. The idea is that of the stable lands of Good, surrounded by the wickedness and corruption of the frontier around them. This is a typical, and perhaps even defining, situation in fantasy gaming, and it's not likely we're going to transcend this anytime soon. I would be quite happy to try, though.

What truly does impress me is when the individual is portrayed as complex and relevant no matter their race (human or nonhuman), with some sort of relationship to the prevailing situation and attitude of his society, people, and so on. We play fantasy. Fantasy comes with the good old dichotomy between Good and Evil. A character is either one or the other. Applied to a group in-game that somehow resembles a real-world minority, this means that a character has to be either an example of "the heroic and noble savage" meme, or the "despicable and degenerate cannibal" meme. It gets even worse when you're discussing groups, not characters, because you CAN'T make those people complex and relevant on an individual basis.

All in all, Paizo is doing a great job on this, but I don't want them to enhance their efforts not to offend anyone. That way lies blandness and ruin. The race issue is so sensitive today that any mention of race draws ire, and many simply remain silent about it. Silence holds no progress at all.


Good point on Magnimar :) As Eric Mona says its up to the PC's to be the good guys..

Yes I dont want Paizo to become Politically Correct...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

I want to chime in and suggest people really take Erik's comment to heart. If there's a perception that the majority of the characters in our print products skew toward evil, antagonistic, or are portrayed in a villainous light... that just means we're doing our job correctly. Every villain we add to a game gives your player characters one more dastard to strive against and fight against, and every good guy we add increases the chance of an NPC stealing the spotlight role of "hero" from your PCs.

We're trying to make a world for players to be heroic in, on one level. And that means that a lot of our topics are going to skew toward the bad guy side of things. That's CERTAINLY why there are no regions in the Inner Sea that are really "all good guy nice places to live."


Erik Mona wrote:

It almost seems like being the good guys is the job of the player characters.

Clearly you haven't met my players!

(Even if you're killing them by proxy.)

The Exchange

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

I'm hoping there'll be somewhere like Timbuktu somewhere on the continent. I was thinking that the Mali-esque spot might be Nex, due to its love of scholarship, but looking at the illo of the Arclord, he looks more Moroccan, so I'm guessing Nex is more Marrakesh.

Is there a Timbuktu analogue currently established?

I was thinking a Timbuktu analog might be in Thuvia and/or Rahadoum, because of the confluence of the Quadiran and Garundi cultures and its proximity to the more populated regions of the Mwangi Expanse. Katapesh, just north of Nex, gave off a more "Spanish" vibe to me, so I see why you say Nex is more Moroccan. Merab in Thuvia, or Manaket in Rahadoum are both sophisticated, cosmopolitan cities with lots of international trade. The Garundi people there are every shade. They're on a direct trade route to the Shackles and points south. So I'd go with Merab or Manaket as a Timbuktu stand-in.

Edit: or maybe Azir.

Contributor

Thuvia definitely reads as Libya to me, so it looks like Manaket would be the Timbuktu analogue, both due to the geography and the emphasis on scholarship.

The Exchange

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Thuvia definitely reads as Libya to me, so it looks like Manaket would be the Timbuktu analogue, both due to the geography and the emphasis on scholarship.

Very cool. I'd personally love to see a Rahadoum book, like the one Paizo did for Katapesh. Rahadoum's history and culture seems very unique to me in the history of fantasy RPG settings. Nobody's ever defied the gods on such a large scale! But I fear it probably won't happen anytime soon. Hopefully they'll give us a bit more once the new Inner Sea Guide comes out, since they'll have more than 2 pages.

Contributor

On second thought, I'll recant--Nex is definitely Timbuktu. I knew the Arclord's blue costume and veil reminded me of something, and that something is specifically the traditional dress of the Tuareg, founders of Timbuktu.

Even the Arclord's skintone and facial features are about right for the Tuareg.

The Exchange

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

On second thought, I'll recant--Nex is definitely Timbuktu. I knew the Arclord's blue costume and veil reminded me of something, and that something is specifically the traditional dress of the Tuareg, founders of Timbuktu.

Even the Arclord's skintone and facial features are about right for the Tuareg.

Nice link! I can see how Nex's costume is very much like those in central Mali. Although I think there is a less strong history of Sarenrean presence in Nex than in Azir, where Sarenrae's faithful conquered. (Finding an analog for the RL conquest of Islam in Timbuktu).

Alternately, Kibwe could be Timbuktu, since it is inland from Nex on a river that runs inland, and has a "pathways of the world" vibe. The climate is tropical there, but there could be camel caravans coming to it from Nex, in the break between the Shattered Range and the Brazen Peaks, which according to the description is "mountains, scrubland, deserts and arid hills."

*shrugs* I think all those places could work. We won't know until Paizo releases more pictures and info on Nex.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

On second thought, I'll recant--Nex is definitely Timbuktu. I knew the Arclord's blue costume and veil reminded me of something, and that something is specifically the traditional dress of the Tuareg, founders of Timbuktu.

Even the Arclord's skintone and facial features are about right for the Tuareg.

Although the skin tone, facial features, and clothing in Nex is consistent with Mali, I'd say Nantanbu is more an analogue of Timbuktu. This city is described in Heart of the Jungle.

Contributor

Kibwe is a bit small, and in the jungle. It also isn't fond of slavery, unlike Timbuktu, which was one of the biggest slave-trading posts in the world.

I'd say either somewhere in Nex, or else Manaket in Rahadoum, depending on the flavor you want.

There won't be an exact analogue as there isn't Islam, but there will still be parallels.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

Kibwe is a bit small, and in the jungle. It also isn't fond of slavery, unlike Timbuktu, which was one of the biggest slave-trading posts in the world.

I'd say either somewhere in Nex, or else Manaket in Rahadoum, depending on the flavor you want.

There won't be an exact analogue as there isn't Islam, but there will still be parallels.

I was thinking of the "university in Africa" feel, but whatever.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Nex might be analogous to Timbuktu in that it is a huge center of learning, but not at all in its architecture or general nature. The nation is as "high fantasy" as any in the established campaign setting, which means there is a huge quotient for the "weird" there. As a result, I'm loath to base it strictly on one existing culture, as it is its own thing.

The folk who live there are Garundi, with lots of influence from Vudra (especially), Kelesh, and (increasingly in recent centuries) Avistan. Most of the civilized culture there is based around three cities, with the badlanders who live in the wilderness being as much weird mutants as any specific Golarion race.

Nex's cities are one of the most tolerant of races considered "monsters" elsewhere in the Inner Sea region, and the whole place takes a relatively laissez faire attitude toward "alignment" issues, as you might expect from a culture infested with so many wizards and alchemists.

Culturally, the folk of Nex are influenced as much by the cultures of southern Casmaron as they are nations like Cheliax and Lastwall, which they consider distant and almost akin to the "New World" in that their history is so much shorter than that of the "real" countries Nex is more used to dealing with.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Incidentally, there is a ton of weird inspirational stuff about Timbuktu in the quasi-scientific conspiracy book "THE SIRIUS MYSTERY," which was the major inspiration for Osirion, which had a lot more emphasis on ancient aliens in my original version that hasn't quite played out as explicitly as I would have liked.

The Exchange

Erik Mona wrote:

Incidentally, there is a ton of weird inspirational stuff about Timbuktu in the quasi-scientific conspiracy book "THE SIRIUS MYSTERY," which was the major inspiration for Osirion, which had a lot more emphasis on ancient aliens in my original version that hasn't quite played out as explicitly as I would have liked.

Hmm. I'm more inclined to go with Manaket or Azir as a Timbuktu analog now, since Nex seems more like the Cantina from "Star Wars" based on your description (what with their tolerance of monsters and vast wastelands between cities). I thought Katapesh was going to be the "den of infamy" country, but I guess some of that spilled over into Nex? I think there could still be some Timbuktu inspired buildings in Nex, anyway, since they are close to routes into the Mwangi Expanse and there would be lots of cross-polination of architectural ideas between the Garundi and the Katapeshi.

I'm actually glad that your version of Osirion didn't play out more explicitly. Too many aliens and robots would have put me off. I thought the link to "things from beyond the stars" in the Entombed with the Pahraohs module was explicit enough. I don't mind a bit of weirdness or alien technology here and there, but there's a point where "The Mummy Meets E.T." crosses the line for me, especially since there's already Numeria full of alien technology, too. I think the Osirion book has it just about right: enough alien goodness for the people who want to use it, and enough stuff that isn't associated with aliens for people who like their fantasy more "vanilla" but with an "Egyptian" flavor. The level of "fantasy-meets-scifi" is just about right at the level it's currently at for me, but YMMV.

Silver Crusade

On that note, I'm actually glad the ancient aliens angle was played down if only not to undermine the accomplishments of the Osirions.(that's actually my beef with a lot of ancient astronaut theories when they tie into real-world advanced ancient human civilizations)

James Jacobs wrote:

I want to chime in and suggest people really take Erik's comment to heart. If there's a perception that the majority of the characters in our print products skew toward evil, antagonistic, or are portrayed in a villainous light... that just means we're doing our job correctly. Every villain we add to a game gives your player characters one more dastard to strive against and fight against, and every good guy we add increases the chance of an NPC stealing the spotlight role of "hero" from your PCs.

We're trying to make a world for players to be heroic in, on one level. And that means that a lot of our topics are going to skew toward the bad guy side of things. That's CERTAINLY why there are no regions in the Inner Sea that are really "all good guy nice places to live."

I'm not really asking for a utopia, or suggesting that the good-aligned nations in Avistan are, but there are still nations in Avistan shaped by idealistic, good-aligned leanings that are readily visible even if they do have problems(though I question Kyonin deserving the G in its alignment with all the ethnocentric xenophobia. I'm guessing the Good qualifier is mostly from the poor lady running that asylum). Just wish Garund had some as well instead of Avistan getting all of them. Something that's as much a beacon for good as their northern counterparts.

I'm certainly going to be mining Nantambu for all it's worth. Wish it was more visible for the players that would like having a good homeland for their Mwangi/Garundi characters whose ideals they wished to spread, like Lastwall or Andoran.

Will Nantambu be getting more coverage in the new Campaign Setting?

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:
On that note, I'm actually glad the ancient aliens angle was played down if only not to undermine the accomplishments of the Osirions.(that's actually my beef with a lot of ancient astronaut theories when they tie into real-world advanced ancient human civilizations)

+1. I'm with you on that! Lets give our species some credit for evolving and creating diverse civilizations.

In the Osirion: Land of the Pahraohs book, I also liked that the Ruby Prince Khemet III wasn't a 20th level caster. Some settings have the rulers all be super-high level. How can PCs compete with that? Why does a 20th level caster even need the PCs to do anything? What's cool about Khemet is that he isn't high level, but his status and allies make him untouchable. So right there Paizo is suggesting to the GM that it doesn't take game mechanics or even standard class levels to make someone an intimidating ruler - it just takes the atmosphere you create as GM around the NPC. A person could just have Commoner levels and still be one of the most memorable and important NPC your band of adventurers meet.

Silver Crusade

Zeugma wrote:
In the Osirion: Land of the Pahraohs book, I also liked that the Ruby Prince Khemet III wasn't a 20th level caster. Some settings have the rulers all be super-high level. How can PCs compete with that? Why does a 20th level caster even need the PCs to do anything? What's cool about Khemet is that he isn't high level, but his status and allies make him untouchable. So right there Paizo is suggesting to the GM that it doesn't take game mechanics or even standard class levels to make someone an intimidating ruler - it just takes the atmosphere you create as GM around the NPC. A person could just have Commoner levels and still be one of the most memorable and important NPC your band of adventurers meet.

Yeah, I like that the Pharaoh is an establishment as well as a person. I'd love to see more of that scene explored someday. :)

That and the sequence of events concerning the Sarenraen Dawncult, its assassination of Osirion's Keleshite ruler, liberation of Osirion, and reinstatement of the Pharaoh's rule, and how it all played out. The idea of NG Sarenrae having deep ties with the LN pharaonic dynasty going now, and all the values dissonance between them, just seems really interesting to me.

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:


I'm certainly going to be mining Nantambu for all it's worth. Wish it was more visible for the players that would like having a good homeland for their Mwangi/Garundi characters whose ideals they wished to spread, like Lastwall or Andoran.

Will Nantambu be getting more coverage in the new Campaign Setting?

I had an idea of playing a wizard from Nantambu's Magaambya academy who's whole mission in life would be to free her people from the predations of Angazhan.

I don't know how much more coverage the city will get in the new Inner Sea CS. I doubt much more, since they have SO MUCH to cover in just a few pages, since it's a really big region compared to some of the others. Also, I thought Osibu seemed like a pretty LN kind of place, and Kibwe seemed TN or CN aligned, but I don't have the Heart of the Jungle book so I don't know if those write-ups changed from the first PFCS.

Have you thought of writing Pathfinder fan fiction? I'm doing that now, and writing about Nidal. I know Nidal isn't going to get its own supplement any time soon (outside of the current Cities of Golarion book), so I draw on what I can and make up the rest. If it's not 100% canon, oh well, like Elan says, "I'M PARTICIPATING!" Who knows, if my fan fiction is good enough, some of the stuff I write might make it into canon, or at least be mentioned on a wiki somewhere.

Silver Crusade

Zeugma wrote:

Have you thought of writing Pathfinder fan fiction? I'm doing that now, and writing about Nidal. I know Nidal isn't going to get its own supplement any time soon (outside of the current Cities of Golarion book), so I draw on what I can and make up the rest. If it's not 100% canon, oh well, like Elan says, "I'M PARTICIPATING!" Who knows, if my fan fiction is good enough, some of the stuff I write might make it into canon, or at least be mentioned on a wiki somewhere.

I guess that's kind of what I'm doing now, actually. :) Orcs of Nirmathas, to provide support for anyone that wanted to play good orcs or half-orcs with non-tragic backstories. Don't know if anyone would actually use it, but working on it helps take the sting out of the official stance on orckind. (it's pretty much pushed Atah-Ouahe on the backburner I'm afraid...)

Very interested in seeing what you do with Nidal!(another place I'm really interested in seeing explored!)

And yeah, Obisu really caught my eye. The whole Nemesis Well thing, and imagining the people that lived there...really stirred the imagination.

Silver Crusade

Zeugma wrote:

Have you thought of writing Pathfinder fan fiction? I'm doing that now, and writing about Nidal. I know Nidal isn't going to get its own supplement any time soon (outside of the current Cities of Golarion book), so I draw on what I can and make up the rest. If it's not 100% canon, oh well, like Elan says, "I'M PARTICIPATING!" Who knows, if my fan fiction is good enough, some of the stuff I write might make it into canon, or at least be mentioned on a wiki somewhere.

I guess that's kind of what I'm doing now, actually. :) Orcs of Nirmathas, to provide support for anyone that wanted to play good orcs or half-orcs with non-tragic backstories. Don't know if anyone would actually use it, but working on it helps take the sting out of the official stance on orckind. (it's pretty much pushed Atah-Ouahe on the backburner I'm afraid...)

Very interested in seeing what you do with Nidal!(another place I'm really interested in seeing explored, especially after the Zon-Kuthon and Nisroch articles!)

And yeah, Obisu really caught my eye. The whole Nemesis Well thing, and imagining the people that lived there...really stirred the imagination.


Dear Paizo Posters,
From the viewpoint of a CE aligned succubus, I must say that there are far too many 'good' aligned nations and rulers on Golarion. Look at your own world: How many medieval/renaissance/enlightenment nations or rulers can you name who could be considered 'good' aligned? Generally speaking they were all a load of utter bastards (and being a succubus, I am of course flattering them immensely there). Let's have some more mean, selfish, out-for-their-own-interests rulers in charge on Golarion, and fewer of these crazy idealists who wouldn't last two seconds in your own world.
Hoping that you have found this post helpful.

Yours,

Ask A Succubus.
PS
And yes, I am waiting to see who succumbs to temptation first and Godwins this thread.... ;) I mean I'm a temptress: It's practically in my job description (when I feel like paying any attention to that) to strew mischief in peoples' way. :D


Dear Paizo,
I resent any implications that Walkena is Evil. Those are all lies spread by His enemies to deceive you! Walkena is Good! Walkena is Love! If you embrace Him as your Savior, he will not visit his Wrath upon you. I can send you informative brochures about Walkena's Plans for Us, and how he just wants the Best for us. Just contact witness@www.com or visit our website: www.ww.com.
Sincerely,
W. Witness


Where *do* fan contributions get put? I am probably going to start small and put together some NPCs and villages, etc. and want to know where they should be put for comment.

EDIT: Found http://www.pathfinderdb.com

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